excommunication

[april32010]

No, they are not automatically forgiven. The dissolution of excommunications incurred as a result of having an abortion are reserved to the diocesan bishop. The diocesan bishop either must dissolve the excommunication himself, or by a priest to whom he delegates such a power.

i believe any priest in the u.s.a. can absolve for this.

 

[gus]

So if the person had an abortion then they would be telling the priest they had one when they ask for forgiveness as they are repentant.so then they are automatically forgiven ?

forgiveness comes with repentence.
The absolution you receive in a confessional is contingent on you. If your not truly sorry for your sin your words although maybe helpful to you do not heal your break with God.
Before you go into a confessional examine your conscious and your motives. Do I really want foregiveness how can I
avoid sin in the furture.
You will sin again because you are human.
But God will know the difference between someone making anhonest attempt to love him vs someone who is going throw through the motions.
Confession is the means that allows this process to take place.
Frankly in years of discussion with. other faiths most have lost the ability of self examination.
They don’t even regogize when they are falling into sin.
I pray for my brethren that they may recognize sin.
For without recognization there is no repentence without repentence no salvation.
Sadly that’s been the recent trend for Catholics.

 

[Elizium23]

i believe any priest in the u.s.a. can absolve for this.

The OP is in Australia.

Regarding the terminology “dissolve” - this is not standard terminology. Excommunications can be “lifted” or “remitted”, but to “dissolve” something implies a bond such as a marriage.

I think we need more information from the OP: Is this a hypothetical situation? You claim your religion as “EX Catholic”. Do you believe that you are excommunicated? You may not necessarily be excommunicated for anything. Have you talked to a priest about this? What do you believe your offense was? Heresy? Only obstinate, deliberate heretics are excommunicated. Just leaving the Church to be a casual atheist or Protestant is not enough to incur excommunication. But I would like to hear more from you. It will help us focus the discussion and help us to “get the point” of your questions.

 

[Corki]

i believe any priest in the u.s.a. can absolve for this.

I believe this is true for diocisan priests in the US but I don’t think there is a blanket delegation for priest of religious orders. The authority comes from the bishop in each diocese.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No, they are not automatically forgiven. The dissolution of excommunications incurred as a result of having an abortion are reserved to the diocesan bishop. The diocesan bishop either must dissolve the excommunication himself, or by a priest to whom he delegates such a power.

Wait, you have something wrong here. Forgiveness and excommunication are two different things. A priest can forgive your sins but not necessarily lift the excommunication. So going to a priest while excommunicated, yes your sins are forgiven. But you still have to follow the process of getting the excommunication lifted, which in some cases involves other actions.

 

[april32010]

i have googled this,done a caf search and now i do not have a clue :compcoff::manvspc::takethat::banghead:

 

[dans0622]

The Second Lateran did not provide for a ‘reasonable cause’ – I agree that would have been the Christ-like way of handling it. As originally written by Pope Innocent, it sounds like a death sentence. The Church became more Christian in its views between the 13th and 20th centuries.

Hello,

In addition to the comments by “Elizium23” and “Allegra” on interpreting the words “receive” and “communicate,” (comments that are on-target), I would say that this canon from the 2nd Lateran is basically a restatement of canon 5 from the Council of Nicea. It’s not a new idea.

Also, the 1917 Code’s allowance for certain people to associate with “banned excommunicates” goes back to before the 2nd Lateran to Pope St. Gregory VII who was, apparently, the first Pope to relax the strict/total prohibitions on interacting with notoriously excommunicated people. This occured in 1079. His allowances are quite similar to those in the 1917 Code.

As far as being more Christ-like, I suppose so. But, the idea of shunning certain people has a basis in His words: “If he will not listen to the Church, regard him as a heathen or publican” (Matthew, 18) and St. Paul who said you shouldn’t even eat with certain people (1 Corinthians, 5).

Dan

 

[thistle]

Excommunication:

Ferendae sententiae (excommunication after formal proceedings):

Canon 1378 The pretended celebration of the Eucharist or of sacramental Confession.
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by an interpreter.

Latae sententiae (automatic excommunication):

Canon 1364 Apostasy, heresy, or schism
Canon 1367 Violation of the Sacred Species
Canon 1370 Laying violent hands on the Pope
Canon 1378 Absolution of an accomplice
Canon 1382 Episcopal consecration without authorisation from the Holy See
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by a Confessor
Canon 1398 Procuring an abortion

 

[Elizium23]

Excommunication:

Ferendae sententiae (excommunication after formal proceedings):

Canon 1378 The pretended celebration of the Eucharist or of sacramental Confession.
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by an interpreter.

Latae sententiae (automatic excommunication):

Canon 1364 Apostasy, heresy, or schism
Canon 1367 Violation of the Sacred Species
Canon 1370 Laying violent hands on the Pope
Canon 1378 Absolution of an accomplice
Canon 1382 Episcopal consecration without authorisation from the Holy See
Canon 1388 Violation of the Seal of Confession by a Confessor
Canon 1398 Procuring an abortion

on those who attempt to ordain women and the subjects of those attempts.latae sententiae

 

[thistle]

Don’t forget the decree of latae sententiae on those who attempt to ordain women and the subjects of those attempts.

 

[gh4]

Back in the late 50’s when I was a very small child my mother had a wonderful friend we’ll call Beverly. Beverly’s husband left her and filed for divorce and after many years of Beverly fighting it, the divorce was granted. She was excommunicated from the church (united states) and I know that she was broken hearted over it. She never dated after her husband divorced her and died a divorcee, I know she considered herself married. I have no idea if she was ever received back into the Church, but I believe she went to mass every Sunday, but couldn’t receive communion. She was a devout Catholic and a very good woman and died in the 80’s if I remember correctly.
So I know that people were excommunicated here in the US back then for divorce.

Not quite the same as current laws I’m sure and not the same as an abortion I suppose, but interesting none the less.

 

[thistle]

Back in the late 50’s when I was a very small child my mother had a wonderful friend we’ll call Beverly. Beverly’s husband left her and filed for divorce and after many years of Beverly fighting it, the divorce was granted. She was excommunicated from the church (united states) and I know that she was broken hearted over it. She never dated after her husband divorced her and died a divorcee, I know she considered herself married. I have no idea if she was ever received back into the Church, but I believe she went to mass every Sunday, but couldn’t receive communion. She was a devout Catholic and a very good woman and died in the 80’s if I remember correctly.
So I know that people were excommunicated here in the US back then for divorce.

Not quite the same as current laws I’m sure and not the same as an abortion I suppose, but interesting none the less.

Being divorced is not and never has been something a Catholic got excommunicated for, not even the person filing for divorce.

 

[Vico]

Excommunication must be lifted before absolution for the sin can be given.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication. [Cf. CIC, can. 976; CCEO, can. 725.]
For eastern Catholics, there is no automatic excommunication and there is possibility of major and minor excommunication and also deposition.
CCEO Canon 1402

1. Every contrary custom being reprobated, a canonical penalty must be imposed through a penal trial prescribed in cann. 1468-1482, without prejudice to the coercive power of the judge in the instances mentioned expressly in the law.
2. If, however, in the judgment of the authority spoken of in 3, there are weighty reasons precluding a penal trial, and the proofs of the offense are certain, the offense can be punished by an extra-judicial decree in accordance with cann. 1486 and 1487, as long as it is not a case of a deprivation of office, title, insignia or a suspension for more than one year, demotion to a lower grade, deposition or major excommunication.
3. Besides the Apostolic See, such a decree can be issued, within the limits of their competence, by the patriarch, major archbishop, eparchial bishop and the major superior of an institute of consecrated life who enjoys ordinary governing power, all others being excluded.

CCEO Canon 1403

1. Even when it is a case of offenses which carry by law an obligatory penalty, the hierarch can abstain from a penal process, and even abstain totally from imposing penalties, after having heard the promoter of justice, as long as in the judgment of the hierarch the following conditions simultaneously concur: the offender, who has not yet been brought to trial, moved by sincere repentance, has confessed his offense to the hierarch in the external forum, and adequate provision has been made to repair the scandal and the harm.
2. However, the hierarch cannot do this when it is an offense which carries a penalty whose remission is reserved to a higher authority, until he has received permission from the same authority.

Canon 1431

1. Those punished with a minor excommunication are deprived of the reception of the Divine Eucharist. In addition they can be excluded from participation in the Divine Liturgy, and even from entering the church while divine worship is publicly celebrated there.
2. The sentence or the decree by which this penalty is imposed must determine its extent and, as the case may be, its duration.

Canon 1434

1. In addition to all things mentioned in can. 1431, 1, a major excommunication forbids one to receive other sacraments, to administer sacraments and sacramentals, to exercise any offices, ministries and functions, to place acts of governance, which, if they are nonetheless placed, are null by law itself.
2. One punished with a major excommunication is to be turned away from participating in the Divine Liturgy and in other public celebrations of divine worship.
3. One punished with a major excommunication is forbidden to make use of privileges previously granted. He cannot validly obtain dignities, offices, ministries, or any other function in the Church or a pension, and he cannot acquire the revenues attached to them. Moreover, he is deprived of active and passive voice.

 

[Vico]

Back in the late 50’s when I was a very small child my mother had a wonderful friend we’ll call Beverly. Beverly’s husband left her and filed for divorce and after many years of Beverly fighting it, the divorce was granted. She was excommunicated from the church (united states) and I know that she was broken hearted over it. She never dated after her husband divorced her and died a divorcee, I know she considered herself married. I have no idea if she was ever received back into the Church, but I believe she went to mass every Sunday, but couldn’t receive communion. She was a devout Catholic and a very good woman and died in the 80’s if I remember correctly.
So I know that people were excommunicated here in the US back then for divorce.

Not quite the same as current laws I’m sure and not the same as an abortion I suppose, but interesting none the less.

Here is the text from when the change occurred in October 1, 1970, **MATRIMONIA MIXTA:*15. The penalties decreed by canon 2319 of the Code of Canon Law are all abrogated. For those who have already incurred them the effects of those penalties cease, without prejudice to the obligations mentioned in number 4 of these norms.

 * Canon 2319, 1:
 "Catholics are under an excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the  Ordinary: (1) who contract marriage before a non-Catholic minister contrary to  canon 1063, 51, 1; (2) who contract marriage with an explicit or implicit  agreement that all children or any child be educated outside the Catholic  Church; (3) who knowingly presume to present their children to non-Catholic  ministers to be baptized; (4) who, being parents or taking their place,  knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic  religion.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19700331_matrimonia-mixta_en.html

 

[chinamoon]

Thank you for the conversations and I wish I could say I understand it all but im actually more puzzled …
I have spoken to my priest and he doesnt seem to want to talk about excommunication and abortion.

 

[gh4]

Being divorced is not and never has been something a Catholic got excommunicated for, not even the person filing for divorce.

Obviously I have no clue what I’m talking about! Or my non-catholic mother spoke of something she really didn’t understand. Anyhow, she was excommunicated, for what I have no clue then, thought it was her divorce from what my Mom had said to me back then.

Here is the text from when the change occurred in October 1, 1970, **MATRIMONIA MIXTA:*15. The penalties decreed by canon 2319 of the Code of Canon Law are all abrogated. For those who have already incurred them the effects of those penalties cease, without prejudice to the obligations mentioned in number 4 of these norms.

 * Canon 2319, 1:
 "Catholics are under an excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the  Ordinary: (1) who contract marriage before a non-Catholic minister contrary to  canon 1063, 51, 1; (2) who contract marriage with an explicit or implicit  agreement that all children or any child be educated outside the Catholic  Church; (3) who knowingly presume to present their children to non-Catholic  ministers to be baptized; (4) who, being parents or taking their place,  knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic  religion.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19700331_matrimonia-mixta_en.html

Not sure if any of that fits. Who knows, it was a long time ago. I know that she was deeply hurt and that she was deeply Catholic. I hope that no matter what it was, that all was resolved long before she passed.

 

[Allegra]

Being divorced is not and never has been something a Catholic got excommunicated for, not even the person filing for divorce.

I agree. Getting remarried without an annullment puts you in mortal sin, so you can’t recieve communion, but being legally divorced is not, by it’s self, even a sin. Someone steered Beverly wrong. What a sad story.

 

[Allegra]

Thank you for the conversations and I wish I could say I understand it all but im actually more puzzled …
I have spoken to my priest and he doesnt seem to want to talk about excommunication and abortion.

Is there another priest you can talk to that might be able to explain it better?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thank you for the conversations and I wish I could say I understand it all but im actually more puzzled …
I have spoken to my priest and he doesnt seem to want to talk about excommunication and abortion.

You might want to speak to a different priest.

 

[1ke]

Here is the text from when the change occurred in October 1, 1970, **MATRIMONIA MIXTA:*15. The penalties decreed by canon 2319 of the Code of Canon Law are all abrogated. For those who have already incurred them the effects of those penalties cease, without prejudice to the obligations mentioned in number 4 of these norms.

 * Canon 2319, 1:
 "Catholics are under an excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the  Ordinary: (1) who contract marriage before a non-Catholic minister contrary to  canon 1063, 51, 1; (2) who contract marriage with an explicit or implicit  agreement that all children or any child be educated outside the Catholic  Church; (3) who knowingly presume to present their children to non-Catholic  ministers to be baptized; (4) who, being parents or taking their place,  knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic  religion.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19700331_matrimonia-mixta_en.html

This document you quote does not support your position. This document is on mixed marriage not divorce.