"Excuses, Excuses"

[wina]

This is important, because a betrothal or engagement is a step toward marriage. If one is discerning a religious or priestly vocation, this raises the question of fairness. Is it fair to the other person who is believing that you’re going to be married?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

So? meaning?

 

[JReducation]

So? meaning?

If I place myself on the other side of this relationship, where I’m the fiance who believes that you and I are going to be married, but you’re also considering entering a convent. You have not told me this. Am I holding out for someone who may not be mine afterall? Is it fair to me to keep me in the dark?

Is it fair to yourself to be engaged to be married to one person and considering a commitment to another person or a way of life that excludes that person? Can you really discern when your heart is in two places at the same time?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I believed we are attempting to explain the same thing. The difference is in the semantics. I prefer the word “pattern” versus “mold” (although the goal is the same). Mold conjures an image of rigidity, inflexibility, focused on the external conformity. “Pattern” (or model) makes room for creativity. But you and I are agreeing on the same themes of free will, openness to be guided and the humility to be transformed to something greater than ourselves.

I use mold because it’s a commonly used word among Franciscan friars and nuns since 1209. We have always referred to the formation period as a period of molding, like a potter and clay. Pattern leaves some room for flexibility. Franciscan sisters are a completely different family. They don’t belong to this group. They have a different rule, also written by Francis.

In the Franciscan and Benedictine traditions, the flexibility is communal, not individual. That’s why there are so many branches of the Benedictine and Franciscan families. The rules of St. Benedict and St. Francis allow for a community to adopt certain practices. But the individual is bound to obey the community. As individuals, we give up the freedom to adapt our practices and routines to our personalities or the needs of the ministry. Everythig is decided in chapter. Everything has to conform to the mind of the founder. The house chapter is binding on the local house. If the pattern or mold of that house is uncomfortable for you, you bring it up at a house chapter. That’s where the creative juices flow. It was set up this way to force the friars and monks to function as one body. One person’s struggles become everyone’s struggles.

It actually works. You feel very protected and very supported when everyone is brain storming to help you grow. At the same tme, you feel that you also have a duty to give something in return, so you learn to detach and meet your brothers in the middle. It’s not an easy system, but it works and has born fruit.

I’m not sure how the Carmelites keep their unity without a founder. I know that they do. I have many Carmelite friends, mostly OCDs. But I find it easier when you have a founder to compare yourself to and who has left you with some guidelines that are unchangeable and cannot be challenged or questioned. It gives you a point of reference. I always imagine that the life of the O’Carm must be very difficult, because you don’t have that single person as a point of reference as do Benedictines, Franciscans, Salesians, Vicentians, etc. I know that the OCDs use Teresa of Avila as their point of reference and John of the Cross to a lesser degree.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sister_Helena]

I’m not sure how the Carmelites keep their unity without a founder. I know that they do. I have many Carmelite friends, mostly OCDs. But I find it easier when you have a founder to compare yourself to and who has left you with some guidelines that are unchangeable and cannot be challenged or questioned. It gives you a point of reference. I always imagine that the life of the O’Carm must be very difficult, because you don’t have that single person as a point of reference as do Benedictines, Franciscans, Salesians, Vicentians, etc. I know that the OCDs use Teresa of Avila as their point of reference and John of the Cross to a lesser degree.

The Carmelites actually have a a very deep sense of identity based on the prophet. Elijah and Mary. These are the two figures who hold the Order together. This Carmelite consciousness has been developed ever since the late 12th- early 13th century when the Order migrated to Europe in effect as a form of apologetic for their origins. In the document Rubrica Prima,/ Institution of the First Monks, an ancient document in the Carmelite Order, novices were taught how to respond when questioned about their origins. They were to identify themselves as spiritual sons of our holy father St. Elijah. It has been so ever since. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila being O.Carms and having gone through the same formation would have done the same. (The influence of this document is very evident in John of the Cross’ works.). The early hermits of Mt. Carmel settled in Mt Carmel to follow in the footsteps of the Prophet Elijah. So there is no question of being left orphaned and without a “founder.” Mary is in the Carmelite consciousness as well from the very beginning of the Order’s life. Carmelite life, spirituality and devotions are very much inundated by these two pillars. But because the Rule of Albert is very short and drafted in a way different from the other rules, it allows more room for creativity and adopts itself to changing circumstances without violating its spirit and purpose. It’s the Rule which produced 3 Doctors of the Church and countless Saints and Blessed! Blessed be God!

 

[JReducation]

The Carmelites actually have a a very deep sense of identity based on the prophet. Elijah and Mary. These are the two figures who hold the Order together. This Carmelite consciousness has been developed ever since the late 12th- early 13th century when the Order migrated to Europe in effect as a form of apologetic for their origins. In the document Rubrica Prima,/ Institution of the First Monks, an ancient document in the Carmelite Order, novices were taught how to respond when questioned about their origins. They were to identify themselves as spiritual sons of our holy father St. Elijah. It has been so ever since. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila being O.Carms and having gone through the same formation would have done the same. (The influence of this document is very evident in John of the Cross’ works.). The early hermits of Mt. Carmel settled in Mt Carmel to follow in the footsteps of the Prophet Elijah. So there is no question of being left orphaned and without a “founder.” Mary is in the Carmelite consciousness as well from the very beginning of the Order’s life. Carmelite life, spirituality and devotions are very much inundated by these two pillars. But because the Rule of Albert is very short and drafted in a way different from the other rules, it allows more room for creativity and adopts itself to changing circumstances without violating its spirit and purpose. It’s the Rule which produced 3 Doctors of the Church and countless Saints and Blessed! Blessed be God!

Yes, I undestand this. Maybe I am not saying it right. We know a lot about Benedict, Ignatius of Loyola, Franciso of Assisi, Dominic, more than we know about Elijah.

Also Benedict, Augustine and later Francis were very insistent that they must be obeyed without reservation or face serious moral consequences. This makes the life of these families easier, exactly because of what you said at the end, the rule of St. Albert leaves a great deal of room for creativity, adaptation and does not have all of the juridical statutes that the other rules have.

Also Rubrica Prima was flexible enough to allow the first Carmelites who came to Europe to evolve from a community of hermits into a mendicant clerical order. That flexibility is not in the other rules. The Benedictines will never be mendicants or a clerical order. The Franciscans will never be monastic and are always a lay order, regardless of the number of priests. The Jesuits will always be clerks regular. This things are etched in stone, so to speak.

When I say that it must be more difficult, I’m not being condescending. I’m actually thinking how is it possible to live this life without someone guiding you every step of the way in the manner that Benedict, Augustine and Francis do to this day? It’s more a statement of awe.

I know the Carmelites from White Friars in Washington, DC. I studied theology with them back in the 70s and the OCDs from Washington also. We have OCDs in our neighborhood. They have a retreat house just five miles up the road and we visit them often. They’re great guys. I have always asked them this same question. They (OCDs) always express awe in reverse, because of our attachment to our founder.

When I did my STD, I wrote my dissertation on “The Theology of Detachment of Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila: Its expression in prayer and ministry” As I studied Teresa and everything that influenced her, I was always amazed by the simplicity of the Carmelite tradition. We don’t know much about Elijah. St. Albert’s rule is very simple. We share a great devotion to the Blessed Mother, but know very little about her history.

The one thing that often caught my attention, way back when I was doing this work, was the question “Who decides if you’re understanding is right?” You can go back to Benedict, Augustine, and Francis. They’ll tell you to step to the right or stand on your head. Benedict even tells you how to walk. But that’s not part of the history of Carmel. It’s very unique. That’s why I have always been fascinated by it. I find it fascinating and believe that it must be very challenging to preserve the spirit of the early hermits at Mt. Carmel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[nohamaria]

Dear friends,
I say honestly that you make people feel guilty when
they don’t answer to a religious or priestly vocation.
I state Jesus words in Mat9/37-38 where he said:
“The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.
Ask the Lord of the harvest,therefore, to send out workers
into his harvest field.”
Vocation for religiuos life or priesthood is primary a call
from God which is hidden in our pious hearts. This special
call is not given to everyone , as Jesus reply to his disciples
while taking about marriage in Mat19/11-12:
“Not everyone can accept this word( not to marry), but only those
whom it has been given. For some are eunuchas because they
were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have
renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.”
Our true and honest decision in this life is to love God,
listen to Hiss Word, and do His Will in our lives.
We should grow daily in our love for God. That is the primary
request from God to us. And , where we should be, what we should
do as a public message of our beleif, is not our decision, but Gods will
who closes door and open others in our way.
I met many who were about to become priests but went to marriage,
and many too who went to marriage but left it to priesthood.
Whether we are religious, single pious lays, priests or married
people, our will, at the end of our life , should stay loving
and serving God from all our hearts.
God Bless you all.
Peace and Good.
Nohamaria

 

[angelic06]

"Excuses, Excuses"

Inevitably, somewhere along the line, people thinking about religious life come up with good reasons why they should not pursue and investigate this call to religious life. Fears set in, doubts set in, and there is always something that is holding them back.

Sometimes, the reasons one decides not to act on a religious vocation at the present time are good and certainly have to be considered. When these reasons surface, they need to be considered and sometimes may require that one’s personal plans be put to the side for the time being.

Yet, sometimes, they may be just “excuses.” Excuses that are “self” centered are something not God orientated. Excuses that flow from some fear I may have of responding to a call from God may be real but not worth considering. When do we know if our reasons for not considering a call from God are good reasons or just excuses.

Where can we get help? Well, a good spiritual director can help with this. Often time, we need to seek the guidance of others who may be better able to help us make this distinction. One important point to remember is that there is probably no “excuse” that has not been used before!

All the “excuses” we can think of probably were thought of and used before. God has heard them all! If you don’t believe me, check out scripture!

If you can identify with one of the popular excuses listed below; take a moment to investigate the Lord’s (name removed by moderator)ut to your concern (after all, God is the one calling). Although it is not David Letterman’s these can be seen as the Vocation Director’s “Top Ten List” of excuses given for not considering the possibility of being a religious. So, in descending order, the top ten listof excuses given for not entering religious life

#10 “I want to be happy.” Check out: Psalms 37:4; Matthew 5:1-2; John 10:10 and Mark 10:28-31

#9 “I’m afraid of being alone.” Check out: Exodus 3:4-22; Luke 1:28-31 and Matthew 28:20

#8 “I’m not smart enough.” Check out: 2 Corinthians 4:7-18 and Exodus 4:10-17

#7 “I am afraid of making a commitment.” Check out: Ruth 1:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 25:5-10

#6 “I want the good life.” Check out: Mark 10:17-31; John 10:10 and Matthew 13:44-46

#5 “I want to have a family.” Check out: Genesis 12:1-3; Matthew 12:46-50 and Mark 10:28-31

#4 “I’m not talented enough.” Check out: Luke 1:26-28

#3 “I’ve made mistakes; I’m a sinner.” Check out: John 21:15-23; Matthew 9:9-13 and Luke 7:36-50

**#2 “I am afraid I will fail.” ** Check out: Exodus 14:10-31 and Luke 15.

And, the top excuse given for not considering the possibility of religious life is…

#1 “I am not holy enough.” Check out: Isaiah 6:1-9 and Luke 5:1-11

Although put in a humorous way, these “excuses” are real. They can be paralysing. They can make it impossible for us to go on with our life. They need to be reconciled. You can take comfort in the fact that they arise in the hearts and souls of everyone who considers a religious vocation You are not alone.

What do we do if we discover that they are not good reasons but just “excuses” for not considering religious life? Well, perhaps the prophets, disciples, and followers of Christ who had these same excuses can give us some direction. It is clear that all of them had to put their “self” aside and trust in God. Moses had to do it. Mary had to do it. All the apostles had to do it. God wants us to be happy in our lives. Happiness comes from trusting in God. Perhaps we need to do it.

ecclesia-ottawa.org/archidiocese/index_e.aspx?DetailID=171

#5—Raising a family so that heaven will be full of worshippers when we get there is a genuine vocation, is it or is it not? Rather than consider this as an “excuse”, maybe you should instead consider this as one piece of evidence that someone may not been called to the religious life? I have considered monastic life before. However, I decided I would be much happier as a married man and that this is where God wants me to be; consequently, I see this as ample evidence that I have not been called to the monastery. I consider this a genuine reason, not a mere excuse, not to continue my investigation into the religious life (or for that matter, the sacred priesthood) any further.

From the Sound of Music:

Mother Superior: “Just because you love this man [or woman] does not mean you love God any less.”

I have no complaints about the other excuses, however.

Paul R. Viola

 

[JReducation]

#5—Raising a family so that heaven will be full of worshippers when we get there is a genuine vocation, is it or is it not? Rather than consider this as an “excuse”, maybe you should instead consider this as one piece of evidence that someone may not been called to the religious life? I have considered monastic life before. However, I decided I would be much happier as a married man and that this is where God wants me to be; consequently, I see this as ample evidence that I have not been called to the monastery. I consider this a genuine reason, not a mere excuse, not to continue my investigation into the religious life (or for that matter, the sacred priesthood) any further.

From the Sound of Music:

Mother Superior: “Just because you love this man [or woman] does not mean you love God any less.”

I have no complaints about the other excuses, however.

Paul R. Viola

First of all, this is a humorous list. But there are people who would make excellent priests, brothers, sisters or nuns and who actually do say that they don’t even want to consider it because they want to have children, as if it the desire to have children were an obstacle to either the priesthood or the consecrated life. The fact is that only those who have strong parenting skills and a love for family life make good religious. A brother, sister or nun who is not gifted with the love of family and a deep appreciation for children and does not usually last in the religious life

I know that in our own community we do not take any man who says that he is not attracted to marriage and fatherhood. We send them to the diocesan seminary to become secular priests, if they’ll accept them. To be a consecrated religious, you embrace a life of chastity, which goes one step beyond celibacy. Not only do you give back to God your right to marriage, but you receive from God a new family of brothers or sisters. As saint Francis said in his rule, “If we love our parents, brothers and sisters according to the flesh, how much more so ought we to love our brothers in the order.” Your brothers require greater love and greater care and devotion than your biologial family, whether that family is your parents and siblings or a spouse and children. You surrender marriage and children to embrace a family with whom you grow in a chaste intimacy as you journey together toward Christ.

That requires that you have all those skills and nurturing tendencies that a good spouse or parent must have. You cannot nurture yoru religious brothers or sisters, if you do not have those skills and qualities. Community life is more than just living together to acheive some apostolic endeavor. For the consecrated religious the apostolate is accidental, not really necessary for religious life, but the love of his brothers or sisters is essential. You must work toward achieving harmony and union with those who share your life. You must care about their spiritual, emotional and physical growth as you would care for any family.

I believe that this is the excuse that the writer may have been thinking about. There are people who really believe that because they have a deep appreciation for family and children, that it automatically excludes the consecrated life or the priesthood. When in fact this is not the case. These persons owe it to themselves to discern whether they are truly called to marriage and family or whether there is another way of life where those natural instincts can be used for the greater glory and honor of God. When you close the door without a discernment process, that’s when it’s an excuse. You’re just saying that you want children, but you really have not explore the other option which may be the place that the Lord has reserved for you. Do you see how it workd? Never close a door before looking inside.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[goforgoal]

Then why my feeling is getting stronger to go for joining religious life if God wants me to take care of my parents? beside I’m engaged too. Have been discerning

Wina- Once again I’ll say bravo for taking care of your elderly parents. ← Could this be where God needs you to be at this time?

You say that you have strong feelings to join Religious life. Does God need you to be a Religious?

Congratulations on being engaged Yet, at the same time you’re feeling called to Religious life? What do you do? Have you talked about this with your s/o?

Wina and to anyone discerning…Pray and know that God calls all of us it may not be to the Priesthood or Religious life. Here are two examples of two beautiful Holy people that God called.

St. Gianna Beretta Molla

youtube.com/watch?v=xivG5t69wc0

Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati

3op.org/frassati.php

How not to discern your vocation

youtube.com/watch?v=vq8vdZo1e5w

Is there a difference between feeling, knowing, and believing that God is calling you?

God bless,
goforgoal

 

[wina]

If I place myself on the other side of this relationship, where I’m the fiance who believes that you and I are going to be married, but you’re also considering entering a convent. You have not told me this. Am I holding out for someone who may not be mine afterall? Is it fair to me to keep me in the dark?

Is it fair to yourself to be engaged to be married to one person and considering a commitment to another person or a way of life that excludes that person? Can you really discern when your heart is in two places at the same time?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I know that I make mistake with it. I told him and I’m so sorry. And I told him that I should let him go years ago but my ego held me. And he admitted that even if years ago I let him go it didn’t help either. Because he might have the same react. Now, he is very sure that if I tried to live in 3 months in the monastery, then he would lose me.
Sorry Bro JR, I wish I could tell you more about my struggle. But because it’s public thread. I only can say that it’s time for me to let my ego goes. I only want to seek His Holy will. And I become sure more about it. Although I know that I will face many people who are against my will for it. I asked your prayer for me as God will give His grace to strengthen me seeking and do His holy will faithfully.

 

[wina]

Wina- Once again I’ll say bravo for taking care of your elderly parents. ← Could this be where God needs you to be at this time?

You say that you have strong feelings to join Religious life. Does God need you to be a Religious?

Congratulations on being engaged Yet, at the same time you’re feeling called to Religious life? What do you do? Have you talked about this with your s/o?

Wina and to anyone discerning…Pray and know that God calls all of us it may not be to the Priesthood or Religious life. Here are two examples of two beautiful Holy people that God called.

St. Gianna Beretta Molla

youtube.com/watch?v=xivG5t69wc0

Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati

3op.org/frassati.php

How not to discern your vocation

youtube.com/watch?v=vq8vdZo1e5w

Is there a difference between feeling, knowing, and believing that God is calling you?

God bless,
goforgoal

Thanks goforgoal, Yes, it’s time for me to move on with it (Thanks be to God that He has given me grace to go on). It had been too long I tried to avoid it because I was afraid to pray and discerned it ( I was so afraid that if His answer yes). Because I was just thought about my ego for these lives. But now, not anymore, His love is the greatest and I want nothing more except following him and love him back as I can.
Like I replied to Bro JR. that I couldn’t tell you more because it’s public thread and I just ask your prayer that I have strength to do His holy will faithfully with His Grace ( not my will only and the only His holy will).