Exhusband and Daughter

[Morgansmom]

My hisband and I share Joint legal custody. I have full physical custody while he has a visitation schedule. I was raised Baptist and now attend Church of God. Her Father was raised Church of Christ but is now attending a catholic church. My daughter is six years old. She told me that she over heard her sunday school teacher tell her father that she will be baptized next year. She was not asked and I have not been notified of anything. Can she be Baptized without my concent? Don’t I atleast deserve a call from the church?

 

[Rence]

Situations like these are really difficult and the poor child is in the middle of misery. A good priest will not baptise anyone without a full commitment to raise the child Catholic, and the Sunday school teacher should know that. But you, in all likelihood, are going to need a lawyer for this one. You, of course, having her full time, gives you a bit of leverage. Because she spends the majority of time with you, you will be more influential party in her upbringing. I can’t see how having a child only on the weekends will assure Catholic upbringing, so it presents a challenge with consent and commitment issues.

I would start by consulting your lawyer. Then I would write a letter to the priest and sunday school teacher (or call them), and tell them that you have the child full time and are committed to raising her in your religion.

I have to say though, I hope your objections are not based on selfishness and spite for your husband. Because if you are not raising your child in your religion, it would be selfish to deny her the Graces of God just because your ex-husband is taking the initiative to raise him in his. Just saying…I will pray for you and your family.

 

[wanner47]

First, I would talk to your ex-husband. It’s possible that your daughter did not hear the conversation accurately, or in full context. I have a six-year-old daughter too and she doesn’t always transmit information accurately. Simply call him or e-mail and say, “[Daughter] mentioned that she overheard something about being baptized in the Catholic Church next fall; do you know what she is talking about?”

If your daughter heard accurately, and your ex-husband confirms his plans, I would call the priest and discuss your concerns with him.

 

[SMHW]

I take it that your daughter has not yet been baptized? I am not really familiar with what the Church of Christ and Church of God teach in respect to baptism of young children. I know that Baptists generally don’t believe in baptism prior to the candidate making a request for it.

Catholics believe that very young children can be baptized if at least one of the parents speaks on behalf of the child’s future faith and promises that the child will be raised to be a Catholic. (That’s a very simplistic way of putting it.) But Catholic’s also believe that once a child reaches the age of reason/accountability that the child must make the decision to be baptized. Catholics consider the age of reason to be approximately seven years of age. The pastor is supposed to make a determination about the readiness of a given child.)

The reason I mention this is because your daughter would be reaching the age of reason “next year”. Assuming the particular Catholic parish is following the laws of the Church, your daughter would have to make her own decision to be baptized.

Your don’t say how long your ex has been attending a Catholic Church. If this is a fairly recent occurrence he may be going through the “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adult” or RCIA in order to become Catholic. This is a process of about 1-2 years where adults discern whether or not they wish to become Catholic. Children who have reached the age of reason would also follow this process, albeit at a child’s level of understanding. Your ex may or may not be baptized depending on whether or not he has already been baptized and whether or not that baptism is recognized by the Catholic Church. (Catholics do not baptize more than once but there are some Christian sects whose baptism we do not consider valid.) Baptisms of adults are normally done once a year at our Easter Vigil service. Christians who are received into the Catholic Church are often brought in at that same time.

I’m wondering if your ex is envisioning his daughter becoming Catholic at the same time he does? I don’t know if this is the case; I’m just wondering.

As for whether or not the Church needs your consent for your daughter to be baptized… I don’t think this is the case. However if you have concerns about it you should certainly speak to your ex about it. I’m not sure what your daughter overheard from the Sunday school teacher --and sometimes Sunday school teachers don’t know all the rules-- but I believe your daughter is old enough that she will have to give her own consent to be baptized. If your ex doesn’t want to talk to you about this then I think you might want to contact your husband’s parish and see if there is someone who can address your parental rights and concerns. You might want to do that anyway.

 

[Rence]

As for whether or not the Church needs your consent for your daughter to be baptized… I don’t think this is the case.

It is the case. It is the case because in order for a child to be Baptised, there has to be a full commitment to raise her Catholic, and she has her daugher full time. You can’t commit to raise a child Catholic when one parent, who has her full time, is raising her in another religion and is opposed to the Baptism.

If your ex doesn’t want to talk to you about this then I think you might want to contact your husband’s parish and see if there is someone who can address your parental rights and concerns. You might want to do that anyway.

Actually, if you’re talking about parental rights and concerns, she could get a restraining order preventing the Baptism. What I don’t understand is why the father of the child hasn’t talk to her himself. If he is in RCIA, he knows very well that there has to be a full commitment from the parent who has the child full time, in order to have the child Baptised. The parent with the full physical custody will be raising the child full time, and it is very likely the mother in this case is raising her daughter in her religion- which is full time. Going to her dad’s on the weekend and sunday school isn’t sufficient. It might be okay if mom isn’t raising her in the Church of God (but unlikely). This poor kid is going to be pulled and tugged and become very confused

 

[1ke]

It is the case. It is the case because in order for a child to be Baptised, there has to be a full commitment to raise her Catholic, and she has her daugher full time. You can’t commit to raise a child Catholic when one parent, who has her full time, is raising her in another religion and is opposed to the Baptism.

canon law requires consent of one parent. But does also require the well founded hope of the child being raised Catholic. It certainly doesn’t seem prudent to antagonize the ex spouse.

Also at 6 the child is still considered an infant.

 

[SMHW]

It is the case. It is the case because in order for a child to be Baptised, there has to be a full commitment to raise her Catholic, and she has her daugher full time. You can’t commit to raise a child Catholic when one parent, who has her full time, is raising her in another religion and is opposed to the Baptism.

I agree that a part-time parent is ill equipped to raise a child as a Catholic. But I believe the pastor just has to have a reasonable belief that a child will be raised Catholic in order to administer baptism. At least this is the case when the child has not reached the age of reason. You seem to be more knowledgeable than I about the civil laws that the Church chooses to respect so I will defer to you on this one.

Actually, if you’re talking about parental rights and concerns, she could get a restraining order preventing the Baptism. What I don’t understand is why the father of the child hasn’t talk to her himself. If he is in RCIA, he knows very well that there has to be a full commitment from the parent who has the child full time, in order to have the child Baptised. The parent with the full physical custody will be raising the child full time, and it is very likely the mother in this case is raising her daughter in her religion- which is full time. Going to her dad’s on the weekend and sunday school isn’t sufficient. It might be okay if mom isn’t raising her in the Church of God (but unlikely). This poor kid is going to be pulled and tugged and become very confused

Again, I don’t know the civil laws that apply. But I agree that the father should be discussing this with the mother. And the Church should know that this apparently isn’t the case.

I do question whether the daughter understood what she overheard from the Sunday School teacher. And I also wouldn’t assume that the Sunday School teacher actually knows the process for baptizing a child who is just reaching the age of reason.

 

[Morgansmom]

Yes my daughter does attend church with me when it is her weeekend home. She also goes to all other church events when at all passable. She goes to a catholic church when she goes to her Dads every other weekend, but they do miss on occasion. Her Dad and I are not on good trems. We are currently in litigation now. I have talked to my atturney and he did also suggest that I talk to someone at the church. She has also been appointed a Guardian of ed lightum, and this may be something that I need to discuss with him.
Her Dad has been taking her a Catholic church on and off for about two years. They started going to one in the next town over and now attend a local one. I am not sure if he is doing any special studies or not. I am not aware if he has ever been baptized. I am sure that she did not misunderstand her sunday school teacher. She is very smart and aware of her surroundings.
She was dedicated by her Dad and I to a baptist church when she was almost one.When she was five She my husband and I became offical members of the Church of God.
When she told me what her teacher said, I asked her what she thought about it. She told me that she did not completly know what it ment. I told her that it ment that her sisn would be washed aaway and that she would be obligated to attend the Catholic Church and always live a Christian life. She said that shedoes not understand alot of what is said at the Catholic church like she does at our church and that she was not sure she wanted to be baptised now. I asked her why. She told me that she had just thought that God would tell her when she needs to be baptised. This is how it is at our church and that is all that she knows.

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it has given me more insight. Please continue to give your advice and to pray for our situation.

Also excuse my typing. My eight month old is in my lap

 

[Rence]

I agree that a part-time parent is ill equipped to raise a child as a Catholic. But I believe the pastor just has to have a reasonable belief that a child will be raised Catholic in order to administer baptism. At least this is the case when the child has not reached the age of reason.

No, you’re right about that. The pastor does just has to have a reasonable believe that a child will be raised Catholic in order to be Baptised, BUT, the pastor doesn’t have any reason to do so in this case because her mother, who has full physical custody, is raising her in another religion.

You seem to be more knowledgeable than I about the civil laws that the Church chooses to respect so I will defer to you on this one.

Well, I do know that mom can get a restraining order preventing the baptism. Again, mom has full physical custody and the child lives with her full time. She has the right to raise her child in her home according to her religion. Dad’s at a disadvantage here. The court tends to favor the parent with whom the child is actually living with.

It would be different if they were both Catholic at the time of marriage, the child already baptised and going to catechsim. If mom would convert to another religion, dad could have the courts order her to continue the Catholic catechism for their child. But both of them were Baptists at the time of their marriage. Mom converted and has been raising her of the Church of Christ but has her full time. And after the divorce dad converted to Catholicism and decides he’s going to baptise her Catholic without mom’s consent, and that would be undermining mom- who has full physical custody.

Again, I don’t know the civil laws that apply. But I agree that the father should be discussing this with the mother. And the Church should know that this apparently isn’t the case.

What he’s doing is against Church teaching. You don’t just pull rank and decide without discussing with the other parent. Usually, with Catholics, these things are discussed before the marriage and agreed to before the marriage. Now that he’s in RCIA or completed it, he can’t just decide for mom…

I do question whether the daughter understood what she overheard from the Sunday School teacher. And I also wouldn’t assume that the Sunday School teacher actually knows the process for baptizing a child who is just reaching the age of reason.

Who knows? Daugher might have been hearing only a part of the conversation too. Sunday school teacher obviously has no idea of the conflict between mom and dad, and if she did she would most likely refer him to the pastor, which she might have done…

 

[Rence]

Yes my daughter does attend church with me when it is her weeekend home. She also goes to all other church events when at all passable. She goes to a catholic church when she goes to her Dads every other weekend, but they do miss on occasion. Her Dad and I are not on good trems. We are currently in litigation now. I have talked to my atturney and he did also suggest that I talk to someone at the church. She has also been appointed a Guardian of ed lightum, and this may be something that I need to discuss with him.

Definitely talk to the pastor of the Church and the Guardian. Though, I’m curious…it might be too personal, but why does she have a legal guardian?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

…

Who knows? Daugher might have been hearing only a part of the conversation too. Sunday school teacher obviously has no idea of the conflict between mom and dad, and if she did she would most likely refer him to the pastor, which she might have done…

I would suggest this as a starting point. Don’t get everyone in a fighting stance until you are sure of what the facts are.

 

[thistle]

My hisband and I share Joint legal custody. I have full physical custody while he has a visitation schedule. I was raised Baptist and now attend Church of God. Her Father was raised Church of Christ but is now attending a catholic church. My daughter is six years old. She told me that she over heard her sunday school teacher tell her father that she will be baptized next year. She was not asked and I have not been notified of anything. Can she be Baptized without my concent? Don’t I atleast deserve a call from the church?

Canon Law:

Can. 868 §1 For an infant to be baptised lawfully it is required:

1° that the parents, or at least one of them, or the person who lawfully holds their place, give their consent;

2° that there be a well-founded hope that the child will be brought up in the catholic religion. If such hope is truly lacking, the baptism is, in accordance with the provisions of particular law, to be deferred and the parents advised of the reason for this.

Under 1 above it would seem your exhusband could consent to such a baptism. However, if the child is under your full custody and you intend that the child not be brought up a Catholic then under 2 above I doubt any priest would allow it.

What a pity though that the child will not be baptised into the only true Church (the Catholic Church) established by Christ. Not allowing that endangers the child’s immortal soul.

 

[quiet52]

Don’t assume that your ex-husband fully understands the implications – perhaps he has not been well-informed. I would suggest that rather than paying extra legal fees for restraining orders and attorney’s fees to prevent your daughter from being baptized in the Catholic Church, that you simply phone the Catholic parish your ex-husband attends. Ask to speak to the pastor (he might not be there when you call, though).

I suggest that you explain the following to the pastor:

1. that your daughter is enrolled in the first grade religious education class on Sunday mornings.
2. that you and her father are divorced, and that you are the custodial parent.
3. that your daughter has told you that her r.e. teacher told her she will be baptized next year.
4. that you are not Catholic and do not want to raise your daughter in the Catholic Church.
5. that you want assurance from him (the pastor) that he will inform the r.e. teacher that you, as custodial parent, have not given your consent re: the Baptism, and that if your ex-husband has any questions, he will be directed to speak to the pastor himself.

In the meantime, please do what you can to respect your ex-husband’s faith, and do not criticize it in front of your daughter.

 

[Morgansmom]

I am sure that no one at the Catholic church knowes anything about me. The fact that he has kept this from me comes as no supprise. he is very rash. He is an attorney himself, and a crooked one at that. We were divorsed after three years of being married due to his drinking and his lifestyle. When I filed for a divorce I could not find an attorney to take my case b/c know one wanted togo against him. Our divorse papers are vage. He continues to make up his own rules as he went along with no reguare to my opinion or our daughters well being. She does like to visit with her Dad at all. With the help of my new husband I have been able to find and hire a good christian attorney.We have been in litigation for right at a year now. Last year Morgan told me that Her Father and his girlfriend( who my Daughter had only known for two days prior to the visitation in question) had taken her to a ball game in Oxford. This is two hours away from his home. She said that they both were drinking beer and her father was driving. After the game the girlfriend drove thenm to a nearby hotel. My daughter told me that they did not take any clothes with then so I know that they had origanly not planned to stay the night. My daughter told me that at the hotel the girlfriend also took a shower naked with her. As you could imagine this was of great concern for me. I refused to send my daughter to her next visitation two weeks later. The following Monday her Fater sued me before I could sue him. With all of that said, my attorney sugested that my Daughter be appointed the Guardian of ed lightum. This is someone who will take into consideration how my daughter feals. The Guardian plays no other role and is paid for by both parents.
My Daughter will be 7 in November. I have read that she is considered to be an infant till 6. Concerning baptisom what will be the corse of action once she is 7? I do intend to talk to the priest. Would it be out of order to talk to him face to face? I know that the fact that I am going to tak to the preist about this situation will probably enrage her Father. He will inturn try to add this to our on going court case. I am proud to know that I my be able to have it set to where no religon can be forced upon my daughter. I have no disregaurds about her going to the Catholis church at all. In fact I think it is good for her to experence different christian religions. I only think that she should be able to decide for herself. I am good with whatever religon her Father is interested in. I just think that My rights and the rights of my daughter have been overlooked.
Thanks again for all of your thoughts. Your conversations have given me some insight on what to say and what to expect. My daughter has had to grow up so fast b/c of the situations that her Father has put her through. And now this, please pray for this matter to be easily resolved.

 

[Morgansmom]

What about the issue of Godparents? How are they chosen and what would their role be in my Daughters life if she were to be baptized after turning seven?
I was just thinking of wrighting a letter to the priest and ask that he reply in wrighting. This way I would have a more “legal” approach. I know that my exhusband will be enraged no matter how this turns out. I will need something binding to back up my findings. Would written coraspondanse be out of line?

 

[odile53]

Actually, I would call your husband’s parish priest and let him know what is going on. The way I would do this is by calling the parish office and making an appointment to see him. Discuss your concerns with him, get his thoughts and understanding on this, and then after you go home, write him a letter stating when and where the meeting took place and summarizing the content of the meeting. Send the priest the letter, and save a couple of copies.

I doubt that Father would want to baptize your daughter under such duplicity of motive on the part of your ex-husband, if indeed that is what is going on. Instead, I could easily imagine him giving your ex-husband a stern talking-to about evasion and dissembling!

 

[puzzleannie]

My hisband and I share Joint legal custody. I have full physical custody while he has a visitation schedule. I was raised Baptist and now attend Church of God. Her Father was raised Church of Christ but is now attending a catholic church. My daughter is six years old. She told me that she over heard her sunday school teacher tell her father that she will be baptized next year. She was not asked and I have not been notified of anything. Can she be Baptized without my concent? Don’t I atleast deserve a call from the church?

I can tell you from my point of view, as the person who would be in charge of the child’s preparation to be baptized, I cannot proceed until and unless I have permission of the custodial parent, and if there is joint custody that means both parents. There is Catholic canon law on the issue, which says one parent at least must ask for it, but there is also civil law that we are obliged to follow.

Call the priest of the parish where this is happening and bring your concern directly to him, as most likely he is unaware of the situation and the “Sunday school teacher” may also not have been given complete information.

 

[Morgansmom]

This morning I called my Daughters teaches at the catholic church. She said that she would see to it that nothing was going to be imposed on her until she gave her concent. I have am appointment with the teacher this week. I asked her to ask my daughter if she wanted to be baptised then if she said no she agreed to put it wrighting that nothing will be done wothout my concent. I am fine with this. My next concern is if my daughter will continue to be asked.
Just wondering, has her Father broken any Cannon Law by doing all of this behind my back? Or if he is not Baptised and is not taking classes in the Catholic Church, should he be expecting my daughter to be baptised? How would I find out if he is in fact baptised?

Thank you once more ! Please continue to pray for my family.

 

[Castello]

Your husband is an adult, if he has never been validly baptized he is free to request baptism and those records are confidential.

Please, for the sake of your daughter, I pray you both stop making Faith a weapon.

 

[Rence]

This morning I called my Daughters teaches at the catholic church. She said that she would see to it that nothing was going to be imposed on her until she gave her concent. I have am appointment with the teacher this week. I asked her to ask my daughter if she wanted to be baptised then if she said no she agreed to put it wrighting that nothing will be done wothout my concent. I am fine with this. My next concern is if my daughter will continue to be asked.
Just wondering, has her Father broken any Cannon Law by doing all of this behind my back? Or if he is not Baptised and is not taking classes in the Catholic Church, should he be expecting my daughter to be baptised? How would I find out if he is in fact baptised?

Thank you once more ! Please continue to pray for my family.

I don’t know if your daughter will be continued to ask. I think that if she continues catechism classes, that it’s only natural that she be asked if she wants to be Baptised. I don’t believe that the priest or the instructor will pressure her, if that’s what you’re worried about. Her father might try to pressure her though.

No, her father has not broken any Canon Law because Catholics are required to raise their children Catholic. It’s not a suggestion, it’s a strict theological teaching. Catholics must have their children Baptised and must commit to raising their children Catholic. Remember in some post above, not having the consent of both parents is not required. In other words, one can oppose it, and one can request it. As long as there is a commitment to raise the child Catholic, she can be Baptised, according to the rules of the Church.

If he is not Baptised Catholic, and is not going through or finished RCIA, then he’s not Catholic. If he is not Catholic, no, he shouldn’t be expecting your daughter to be Baptised. Remember what we all said about the requirement for intent to raise the Baptismal candidate Catholic?

If she is Baptised, you wouldn’t know unless she told you.

The priest isn’t going to know anything different than what your husband tells him. When a parent goes to a priest, enrolls their child in catechism classes and works towards baptising the child, the priest has no reason to suspect something dishonest. So by you speaking to the priest, he will learn your side of the story.

I completely understand you being angry with your ex-husband. You have every right to be angry with him for his attempts to undermine you, for his deception and his lies. But you mentioned above that you wouldn’t mind if your daughter became Catholic. Wouldn’t it be a big egg in his face if you were open to the idea? That way, he can’t get under your skin. Without telling him, I’d encourage you to check out the Catholic Church. Maybe enroll in RCIA yourself. There is no commitment to to get Baptised…just a chance to get to know the Church. Who knows…maybe you and your daughter will be Baptised together