Existence of other gods (OT)

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gkibarricade

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In Exodus, Moses and Aaron where copied by Egyptian magicians. They could perform wonders and stop some of the signs. They could not stop all though. This led me to believe they ARE other weaker gods, of course not like God but, with abilities to perform wonders as well. This scared me a bunch, becouse I was never afraid of voodoo or a jihadists Allah but now I was. I renewed my faith that God would protect me.

Then I read Deuteronomy 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him”. This is the first time (chronologically) he says he is alone. I’ve read “no other like him” and such but this just puts him to the capital G. Doesn’t negate other’s existence.

Discuss this! I have a feeling I know the answer but I hold out

P.S. Yall should have have a better search system. Maybe when I post, I put keywords from a list that has all the verses in the bible. That way, when I think of a verse i could get every other post that references that verse becouse, I’m sure this was already answered
 
You might find this a bit of an odd-ball reply, but I’ll give it a go anyway…

Martin Buber, a Jewish theologian and philosopher, distinguished between a knowledge of God everyone could see from creation, and a personal knowledge of God based on revelation. He suggested that Elohim is used when it is the former and Yahweh when it is the latter. All people could make a connection to the God revealed in nature (Elohim, which is plural in form and may also be thought about as ‘forces’), but only the Jews knew God personally (Yahweh, who revealed the Torah to the Jews).

So here is just a thought…what if the magicians were praying to God (Elohim), but Moses had the revealed connection (with Yahweh) and was part of God’s plans. The magicians prayed to God, but only through the images of God derived from nature. This image is real (hence the potency the magicians had) but not as complete as the fuller image that Moses had. In this narrative perhaps God is showing that an understanding of him through nature has power, but an understanding of him through personal revelation trumps that general understanding.
 
Ok. That’s great Iggy. I’ll post my withheld answer. Maybe we’re not that far apart.

I think it’s like God created everything that is. He didn’t create anything that is not. Like cold, darkness, negative, emptiness, space, vacuums. These are things not of God. They existed before creation. The laws of science (“forces”) have plenty of untapped stuff that we will surely come to dominate.

Imagine that your walking with a friend. You enjoy his company and you find favor in eachother’s sight. Suddenly your friend kneels and prays to a rock. Like God you are jealous. You say: “What is he doing? This rock is inanimate. It will not find favor in him.” However, the love and worship that your friend commands towards the rock are powerful to the rock and animates it. It talks and commands other rocks and performs “wonders”. You see, your jealousy was well founded. The unlike the rock you are “be” not “of”. The rock only lives becouse of the worshiper. It will die when the worshiper goes away…

I lost myself there. Was I clear? I just think that the dual God theory sounds blasphomous. The is a trinity. Dual God may only apply to Jews who don’t believe in the Trinity
 
My personal opinion is that the source of power for the Egyptian magicians was Satan or his demons.
 
I think you’re both wrong.
Iggy - If God was indeed do wonders “against” himself… what benefit would that bring God? Doesn’t make sense… Even in the New Testament (can’t remember the book or exact reading) when they claim that Jesus exercises demons through Belzibub or something of that nature Jesus declares that there would be no benefit of that. If the devil fough himself his house would divide… wouldn’t that hold the same if God fought Himself?

As far as the second response from the OP, you lost me…?? God is the creator of ALL… not some but ALL. He is the Alpha & the Omega. The beginning and the END. There is nothing before Him and there will be nothing After Him because He is eternal.

My understanding is that these magicians used powers of demons because they worshiped demons. These other gods are fallen angels trying to confuse man are they not?.. That’s it… nothing more to it. but… again… that’s just my thoughts and I’m no Biblical Scholar…
 
gkibarricade

Yes, I think you were clear. Though I might still disagree (-:

If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that men have a power to achieve things which they then attribute to the thing itself. In some circumstances I would likely agree with you, but in the case of the story of Moses I think they are achieving things beyond any human power (you may of course disagree). So if the achievements are beyond human power we then have to ask where they come from. Two of the three other posts say from Satan/demons. One (me) said from God (Elohim) as a partial revelation of power that is fully revealed in Yahweh.

But I should say I don’t wish to be dogmatic about this. I present my views just as a hypothesis, and I am very willing to listen to objections.
 
Ranp said:
My personal opinion is that the source of power for the Egyptian magicians was Satan or his demons.
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I think so.

Satan as a fallen angel, demons and the angels themselves, while spirits, are not God. These spirits can move within the created world and can influence things in the created world but they cannot create. They cannot create matter out of nothing. Only God can create something out of nothing.

And it is important to remember that the God of Israel defeated the Egyptian Gods every time he went up against them. The Egyptian god of fertility was a frog named Heqet. This god was defeated by the God of Israel with a plague of frogs which went up into the Egyptians bedrooms and into their beds. Osiris aws the god of the Nile River, which the God of Israel turned to blood and made stench with rotting fish. The Egyptian god of the sun, Amen-Ra, was defeated by God with three days of darkness.

Jesus himself drove out evil spirits, especially notable in Luke 8 were the “Legion” demons who begged Jesus not to send them back to Hell.

-Tim-
 
According to the New Testament the pagan deities are simply demons. Scary thing is that these demons basically have power equivalent to pagan deities. Of course, God kicks all their butts in terms of power but still. I guess they’re apportioned some kind of realm by Satan and then use that to draw God’s children away with their powers into a sort of cult. So if Wiccan gets a prayer answered (or one of their spells works) that goes against God’s law then it was their religion’s respective demon(s) and whatever spiritual tricks they can work (God can bless, Satan can curse, etc. - they can impart stuff outside of themselves I guess).

Edit: Maybe you could read about the nine choirs of angels, some of them are demons conspiring against us humans: they’re the powers, thrones, principalities, and dominions mentioned in the NT.
 
Ranp said:
My personal opinion is that the source of power for the Egyptian magicians was Satan or his demons.
Click to expand...
Bingo. The devil stands to gain much by convincing the Egyptians and other pagans their false gods are real.
 
I’m starting to turn towards the demons theory.

At first, I was hesitant because God doesn’t speak of fallen cheribum and such. He focuses more on the people. Kill all the people and then destroy thier temples and such. Semi-gods can explain Pyramids of Egypt, Mayan stuff. etc. Also God’s jealousy. and the reference of God as the god of Abraham, in Genesis. As if there are other’s.

Your posts began to convince me.

But in Deuteronomy. Moses explains that other gods aren’t just bad thier terrible because they do things exactly in contempt of God. Deuteronomy 9 says its not the righteousness of the sons of Isreal, it’s “but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you”. These oppositness lends alot to the demon theory

So i’m 90% demon theory:)

PS To… God created light. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness is without God. God created warmth. Cold is lack of heat. Even in the beginning the earth’s oceans floated through space. God didn’t create voidness. That’s why we are afraid of it. A warning from God
 
chief714 said:
I think you’re both wrong.
Iggy - If God was indeed do wonders “against” himself… what benefit would that bring God? Doesn’t make sense…
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That’s a fair question. I could be wrong, but indulge me a little further as we explore this…

Was God acting against himself? Remember the narrative - God is hardening Pharaoh’s heart. God is both willing Pharaoh to oppose Moses and giving Moses (ultimately) the power to overcome Pharaoh. That I think is indisputable in the narrative. We have, I would suggest (tentatively!) the revelation of God’s revealed presence (Yahweh) shown to be fuller than the general acknowledgement of God’s (Elohim) presence seen by the pagans (Pharaoh’s magicians).

So, I am suggesting, God is showing that as great as he can be seen to be from general revelation, his personal revelation is even greater.

But please feel free to disagree.
 
God told Moses what to say to Pharoh- Moses warned him that what he did would come back to haunt him- Pharoh’s heart was already hard- God only amplified it-when Pharoh ordered the slaughter it was a culmination of the Trinity- Moses survived the slaughter- the Jewish nation survived the slaughter- Jesus survived the slaughter after his birth. Thoughts?
 
gkibarricade said:
In Exodus, Moses and Aaron where copied by Egyptian magicians. They could perform wonders and stop some of the signs. They could not stop all though. This led me to believe they ARE other weaker gods, of course not like God but, with abilities to perform wonders as well. This scared me a bunch, becouse I was never afraid of voodoo or a jihadists Allah but now I was. I renewed my faith that God would protect me.

Then I read Deuteronomy 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him”. This is the first time (chronologically) he says he is alone. I’ve read “no other like him” and such but this just puts him to the capital G. Doesn’t negate other’s existence.

Discuss this! I have a feeling I know the answer but I hold out

P.S. Yall should have have a better search system. Maybe when I post, I put keywords from a list that has all the verses in the bible. That way, when I think of a verse i could get every other post that references that verse becouse, I’m sure this was already answered
Click to expand...
Isaiah 43:10 rules out the existence of other gods.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Isaiah 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses.** Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.**

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45:20
Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

2.Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:5-7 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 
If there are other Gods/demons why do they not have supporters today who demonstratively possess magical powers granted to them by their masters?

I think believing in multiple god/demons brings one down to the level of hopeless cases who take Dracula or Buffy the Vampire Slayer seriously. Surely, this isn’t where believe in God should lead?
 
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