Existence or Neurology: Ghosts

  • Thread starter Thread starter Valencian7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
V

Valencian7

Guest
Hi Everyone,

I believe this is a debate that has existed for centuries, even before the scientific and technological advancements of humanity. I have personally always found that the existence of ghosts was impossible because of our research in both physics and neuroscience, however, although the research and models that we use might be useful, they are not perfect and thus leave room for the “impossible”. I still, however, resist the existences of these apparitions and paranormal occurrences as they have never happened to me. Everyone in my family has had at least one supernatural experience where they have stated seeing something out of the ordinary, whether it be some apparition or the feeling of something out there (family, old acquaintances, ect.) I want to highlight that this is a Catholic home and our family history has always been Roman Catholic, and yet, this belief has existed for generations. I have still not bought this, however, I had an occurrence that I am also hoping that someone here can shed some non-bias and resourceful light on. I apologize in advance for the lengthiness of this story.

Curiosity killed the cat. In my case, curiosity has been asking an overload of questions due to the cluster that my mind is in. I live in the Chicagoland area. One of the biggest Halloween sites to see around here is in the Southwest suburbs, Bachelor’s Grove Cemetery in Bremen, IL. It is very close to where I live, and I always heard people talk about it. However, since I never bought into what I thought was nonsense and peoples’ inabilities to control their state of mind and/or their lack of faith in God, I always ignored these claims. It wasn’t until I met a person at a Starbucks that works for the Cook County Forest Preserve that I wanted to read more into the history of Chicagoland and eventually falling into the history of Bachelor’s Grove. It is said to be the most haunted cemetery in the US due to all the regrettable occurrences throughout its history (murders, vandalism/desecration, seances, urban legends). I found the history very intriguing, as I am a history junkie. Thus, I decided that I would visit this site.

Last Friday, my little brother and I went for a drive, and we decided to go find where this cemetery was located. The cemetery is located within a forest, and in order to visit, some have to park their vehicles in the parking lot across the street in Rubio Forest. It was a gloomy, cloudy, misty late afternoon. We entered the parking lot which only had two vehicles parked inside. I parked two carspaces away from a parked vehicle that had a lady and her dog sitting inside. The lady seemed quite strange; she seemed as if she was dully looking into nothingness, staring through some trees in Rubio Forest. I went out of my car to throw some garbage way at a trash can nearby. I noticed that all of her tires were flat. In my mind, I figured, “Bad day. Maybe she is waiting for someone to help her.” Then I noticed that her dog did see my little brother and me, but didn’t bark at us. The dog seemed very distressed - its ears perked up, its tail up but not wagging, while the dog distressfully would look around. My brother and I looked at each other and just decided to go home. We both that that was kind of strange, and that I was simply just an ugly day for exploration.

Saturday came, and my little brother and sister mentioned Bachelor’s Grove to me again. We went along with two of my sis’s friends. We arrived to the parking lot, where we found a good number of vehicles parked, and noticed people crossing Midlothian Turnpike to go into Bachelor’s Grove Cemetery. We went ahead and entered Bachelor’s Grove. I must admit, it was a creepy-looking place and the history behind it doesn’t help it much. We first visited the fenced cemetery, the pond (also with historic references) adjacent to it, and the forest outside of it. We went along the trail outside the fenced cemetery as everyone else was, among friends and family, doing exploration of the historic site. The forest is pretty deep, and you can hit a dead end at any time. We made our way to this camp ground that seemed pretty odd. It had logs laid out around it, and I noticed ashes in the middle of the ground. My little sister pointed out the pagan drawings on some of the trees. It clicked to me that it was an area of seances. So in my mind, I’m thinking, “Oh great, the ground where all the creepos hang out. Fantastic…” A couple of groups made it to where we were as well, but decided to turn it back around as they didn’t seem much pathway further to keep looking around. I was still curious to see what else was around all this forest. We walked around as we were beginning to get ourselves beaten up by thorn bushes. I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary. At one moment, I noticed some significant space just beyond these thorn bushes. I looked through the bushes and just saw a small half-acre of land surrounded by some trees, nothing but weeds. Seemed normal to me. We headed back to the cemetery and out of the forest.
 
My friends contacted me and met up with me to discuss my experience. They were interested in my perspective as they believe that I am always so brute and harsh about the things that people tend to overhype. Two of my friends are pretty familiar with the area as they used to live around the area. Both of them are very spiritual people, a devoted Christian and devoted Catholic. They have claimed in the past seeing strange things, even glowing orbs and crying. I told them everything we went through at our trip, and that it was a pretty non-eventful trip. When I mentioned that I saw a small space, a half-acre of field between some trees, that’s where they stopped me and started questioning me. Apparently, there should be absolutely no space that size besides the actual cemetery. Everything else should be all trees. I said to them, “Well, what do you want me to say? I saw this small open field, and it seemed pretty normal to me.” They insisted that there cannot be such a space. They believe that I had a moment of paranormal experience and possibly found the foundation of one of the old homes that was built inside the forest. Again, I pushed back on them saying. The Catholic friend stated to me that, “Among some Catholics, it is believed that ghosts are not real, but impersonations and manipulations of demons and fallen angels that prey on the emotionally weak and vulnerable, those who have lost a love one and have not been able to reconcile it, or who have a fractured, limited, or absent relationship with God. They appear to challenge and deceive souls.”

So I asked her, “Then why am I the only one in my family that has never had a paranormal feeling or experience?” She stated, “I think your soul has been through a lot, and has held up throughout the years. Your dedication to your relationship with the Lord, your commitment to your family, your everlasting love for your young siblings is very sweet and admirable. You live up to your name, Miguel Angel. Your soul is a warrior, and a protector to your family, especially your siblings. You also seem to show a care for young people as you have a lot of facility relating to them.”

I asked, “I understand, but what does this have to do with this open field or foundation, whatever it is?” “You might have seen the foundation of the home in which the infant daughter used to live, the infant daughter that was murdered by her family. You being there with your siblings, and their friends, protective as always, was symbolic at the moment. That is just my guess,” she said. I was blown away. She said, “You’re not a perfect person. I know you’ve said you have your moments of stubbornness, hot-headedness, sadness, impatience, and what not, but you wear your crucifix and your scapular of Mount Carmel so close to your heart, whether this was some paranormal event or a sign from the Heavens to remind you to continue being that protection to your family, it’s something out of the ordinary.”

I am having a hard time in my mind, rationalizing what happened. At times, it brings some tears to my eyes. I’d never want anything to happen to those that I love. I don’t understand the meaning of places like Bachelor’s Grove. Are these apparitions real? Or are these just reminders that the battle between good and evil are real? During my lunch break today at work, I decided to go back to my old alma mater where we have a Catholic church next to our campus, in the Little Italy neighbor, to just sit down and pray with the Lord. It was one of those days where I just needed some piece of mind with Him. I hope to get some interesting and enlightening feedback.

God Bless You,

Miguel Angel
 
In the past I have had 3 supernatural experiences. Two of these experiences were with my deceased mom. One experience, which two others witnessed, was in a haunted castle in Ireland.

Although I have never seen a ghost, I would tend to believe in ghosts, not only because of my personal experiences, and reading the experiences of others, but also because of what Jesus told his disciples when they saw him after his death: The scripture says they were afraid and they thought they were seeing a ghost, but Jesus reassured them, telling them that ghosts don’t have bodies as they saw that he had. To me, Jesus was, in a sense, acknowledging the existence of ghosts.

I’m currently reading a good book called, ‘‘Real Ghosts, Restless Spirits, and Haunted Places’’. One chapter is called ‘‘Restored Scenes of the Past’’, and is filled with stories of those who became part of a scene that had actually happened earlier in history. This kind of sounds like what may have happened to you. The book discusses several possibilities as to why this can happen, such as atmospheric conditions, non-linear time, etc., but of course no one knows for sure.
 
There could be ghosts; the Church has no teaching either way.

But most occurrences of ghosts are likely to be false positives gunned up by our minds seeing humanoid patterns where none exist (we are designed to seek other human life).

ICXC NIKA.
 
I have seen a ghost once, at a former girlfriends house in a stairwell, many years ago, it was not a human form, just a ball of transparent grey ‘matter’, it did not interact with me or anyone, I did not have feelings of dread or evil when looking at it either, I viewed it for about 5 minutes.

My girlfriend then and many of her family members knew there was something in their house, but said it never caused any problems and they were not scared of it.

I know many on here have said ghosts cannot be human souls, as they could not be stuck on this ‘plane’ and they would be in heaven, hell or purgatory, well, in Luke 29, when Jesus came back and told the apostles, he was NOT a ghost tells me they knew of ghosts, since there was a word for it, plus Jesus used the word, I also think if ghosts were truly demons, then Jesus would have used the word demon when referring to them, not the word ghost.

I realize many many people see these things (ghosts), so there is NO doubt they do exist, but I think they are just something we dont fully understand, there is ALOT about our world we dont understand, Jesus even told us this in the bible. If it were important, I think God would have made sure we understood them, but it seems their existence, whatever they truly are doesnt really effect the living too much.
 
There may or may not be ghosts but one thing we can say with certainty is that if there are ghosts they are not the souls of those who have died but not yet passed over. When we die our souls immediately go to Hell (if we die in a state of mortal sin) or if saved then either immediately straight to Heaven or Purgatory first.
There are no souls of dead people lingering around.
 
There may or may not be ghosts but one thing we can say with certainty is that if there are ghosts they are not the souls of those who have died but not yet passed over. When we die our souls immediately go to Hell (if we die in a state of mortal sin) or if saved then either immediately straight to Heaven or Purgatory first.
There are no souls of dead people lingering around.
Purgatory may be as much a process as a place-- it is the cleansing of a soul to enable it to enter into God’s presence. I have wondererd at times whether spirits/ghosts are going through some sort of purgatorial process- being cleansed, needing to observe something here on earth to achieve that purpose. God created time and is not bound by it. I have even wondered of a ghost is not the soul of a dead person, but the soul of someone yet living who must witness the consequences of actions they have taken in order to truly repent.
 
In the past I have had 3 supernatural experiences. Two of these experiences were with my deceased mom. One experience, which two others witnessed, was in a haunted castle in Ireland.

Although I have never seen a ghost, I would tend to believe in ghosts, not only because of my personal experiences, and reading the experiences of others, but also because of what Jesus told his disciples when they saw him after his death: The scripture says they were afraid and they thought they were seeing a ghost, but Jesus reassured them, telling them that ghosts don’t have bodies as they saw that he had. To me, Jesus was, in a sense, acknowledging the existence of ghosts.

I’m currently reading a good book called, ‘‘Real Ghosts, Restless Spirits, and Haunted Places’’. One chapter is called ‘‘Restored Scenes of the Past’’, and is filled with stories of those who became part of a scene that had actually happened earlier in history. This kind of sounds like what may have happened to you. The book discusses several possibilities as to why this can happen, such as atmospheric conditions, non-linear time, etc., but of course no one knows for sure.
I really like your response. I am compelled to read this book. I think it kind of reiterates the latter argument for neurology. Our brains are quite the machines, but where I meet a dead end in scientific reasoning and rationale is where we as humans cannot prove or explain the ambiguity and errors in our results. This is where I believe that maybe God is prohibiting us from knowing more than we should, perhaps for the purpose of fulfilling His plan for us.

My experience is still puzzling as I really didn’t feel weird or different at this forest/cemetery. It looked creepy, but I feel that I didn’t see anything paranormal whereas my peers believe that I did. I still have troubles buying into it. What does challenge me cognitively is, “If my presence that day played some sort of significance by seeing something no one else has, what was the purpose of this? Why would I see this non-existent open field in a damned and haunted area?” It is discomforting, and hence why I went to church on my own during my break to be left in peace and talk to The Lord. I suppose that it is a life occurrence more than it is a supernatural occurrence, a reiteration of the mystery of faith.
 
There was a ghost at my Grandma’s house. Nearly all my extended family (including my no-nonsense father) experienced it. I say “experienced” because it was mostly an auditory ghost, the shadow and sound of someone coming in the back door and setting down a heavy paper bag of groceries. I never even articulated its presence, until…

Nearly a decade after I’d been living in CA, I returned home for a Thanksgiving dinner and felt compelled to ask about the “ghost”. To my astonishment, it had been discussed extensively in my absence. My parents, aunts and cousins decided it was my Grandma’s father, coming to check on her.

Grandma died in 2006 and the house has been sold. The question still haunting me is this:

Now that she’s gone, does he still come to visit with a bag of groceries?
 
I really like your response. I am compelled to read this book. I think it kind of reiterates the latter argument for neurology. Our brains are quite the machines, but where I meet a dead end in scientific reasoning and rationale is where we as humans cannot prove or explain the ambiguity and errors in our results. This is where I believe that maybe God is prohibiting us from knowing more than we should, perhaps for the purpose of fulfilling His plan for us.

My experience is still puzzling as I really didn’t feel weird or different at this forest/cemetery. It looked creepy, but I feel that I didn’t see anything paranormal whereas my peers believe that I did. I still have troubles buying into it. What does challenge me cognitively is, “If my presence that day played some sort of significance by seeing something no one else has, what was the purpose of this? Why would I see this non-existent open field in a damned and haunted area?” It is discomforting, and hence why I went to church on my own during my break to be left in peace and talk to The Lord. I suppose that it is a life occurrence more than it is a supernatural occurrence, a reiteration of the mystery of faith.
Regarding neurology being the explanation, I refer in my examples to near death experiences. In my readings, science can possibly explain the many experiences of a tunnel, and a white light: these have been explained as the brain firing its last energies, and the perceptions these energies leave on the mind. What has not been explained, however, are the experiences of those whose spirits have left their bodies, and where they can recall exact movements and conversations of doctors, nurses, and loved ones.

One instance I read about, and which remains in my mind, is where, after a near-fatal car accident, the victim recalled leaving her body and floating above the accident. She saw the medics arrive, and was even aware of another passerby who said a prayer for her. After her recovery, she went to the person’s house who had prayed for her and thanked her for the prayer. She had not previously known the person, let alone where she lived.

I don’t believe in all near death experiences. I think we have to be really careful. I know that there is the truth of God, as evidenced in the life and words of Jesus as he came to reveal God to us. But I also know that the Deceiver exists, who attempts to lie to mankind and to convince us of his lies. For example: there are some near-death experiences which refute the words of Christ: especially those which say that all religions are the same, and that it doesn’t matter what we do in this life–good or evil–because we are all loved, and when we die, we will have learned our earth-lessons and all become one with god again, from whom we came.

I’m not sure why you say that the area you were in is damned and haunted. And I couldn’t begin to say why this happened. I only know that God’s words, as revealed in the scriptures, are true, and any entity or spirit which attempts to convince us otherwise, is not of the truth.

I pray for your peace regarding all these things.
 
My experience is still puzzling as I really didn’t feel weird or different at this forest/cemetery. It looked creepy, but I feel that I didn’t see anything paranormal whereas my peers believe that I did. I still have troubles buying into it. What does challenge me cognitively is, “If my presence that day played some sort of significance by seeing something no one else has, what was the purpose of this? Why would I see this non-existent open field in a damned and haunted area?” It is discomforting, and hence why I went to church on my own during my break to be left in peace and talk to The Lord. I suppose that it is a life occurrence more than it is a supernatural occurrence, a reiteration of the mystery of faith.
My response to the haunting experience at the castle in Ireland reminds me of your response–I really didn’t feel anything emotionally. I was standing in small room known to be haunted, and there were two other people there too, but they were not standing close to me. All of a sudden I felt as if I were being blown by a gale-force wind: so much so, that my long hair was fully extended behind me. The castle curator actually ran out of the room, while my husband stood there watching. I did not feel afraid, but just stood there as it lasted for several seconds.

I found out later, from someone experienced in the field of paranormal activity, that this was a true haunting and is a known occurrence. I have no idea why this happened to me. I can only think that, as the scripture says that God is not a respecter of persons, neither are ghosts ( ???). This has not bothered me: I just find it interesting.
 
There may or may not be ghosts but one thing we can say with certainty is that if there are ghosts they are not the souls of those who have died but not yet passed over. When we die our souls immediately go to Hell (if we die in a state of mortal sin) or if saved then either immediately straight to Heaven or Purgatory first.
There are no souls of dead people lingering around.
Why did Jesus use the word ‘ghost’ when appearing after his death? If these ghosts were truly demons or something else, I tend to think Jesus would have called them demons, etc. (whatever they actually are), and not just the word ‘ghost’.

I think ghosts are just one of the many many things we simply do not understand…keep in mind, even the bible tells us we only are given certain info, that means there is likely alot going on in our world that we dont understand, and may never until we die.
 
Why did Jesus use the word ‘ghost’ when appearing after his death? If these ghosts were truly demons or something else, I tend to think Jesus would have called them demons, etc. (whatever they actually are), and not just the word ‘ghost’.

I think ghosts are just one of the many many things we simply do not understand…keep in mind, even the bible tells us we only are given certain info, that means there is likely alot going on in our world that we dont understand, and may never until we die.
I think that I could be dangerous to know more than one should. However I think the emphasis on this prohibition of surplus knowledge mainly roots to our Lord protecting us for what we cannot fathom, as it could lead to destructive ways. Even non-religious/atheists have talked about the poison that can be of knowledge. Friedrich Nietzsche touches on this subject in that a surplus of knowledge for an individual is in a sense like putting too much air in a ballon. It will pop. Nietzsche believes that there are intangible things in life and one of them is infinite knowledge. Those who cannot accept that infinite knowledge is impossible end up binging in knowledge which eventually self-destructs the individual. His further supports our faith - we mustn’t play God as there is only one. He is protecting us from that which we cannot fathom, as attempting to grasp what we cannot fathom can hurt us.
 
I think that I could be dangerous to know more than one should. However I think the emphasis on this prohibition of surplus knowledge mainly roots to our Lord protecting us for what we cannot fathom, as it could lead to destructive ways. Even non-religious/atheists have talked about the poison that can be of knowledge. Friedrich Nietzsche touches on this subject in that a surplus of knowledge for an individual is in a sense like putting too much air in a ballon. It will pop. Nietzsche believes that there are intangible things in life and one of them is infinite knowledge. Those who cannot accept that infinite knowledge is impossible end up binging in knowledge which eventually self-destructs the individual. His further supports our faith - we mustn’t play God as there is only one. He is protecting us from that which we cannot fathom, as attempting to grasp what we cannot fathom can hurt us.
It couldn’t be more harmful than the fear of the total unknown we already deal with, IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
 
I think that I could be dangerous to know more than one should. However I think the emphasis on this prohibition of surplus knowledge mainly roots to our Lord protecting us for what we cannot fathom, as it could lead to destructive ways. Even non-religious/atheists have talked about the poison that can be of knowledge. Friedrich Nietzsche touches on this subject in that a surplus of knowledge for an individual is in a sense like putting too much air in a ballon. It will pop. Nietzsche believes that there are intangible things in life and one of them is infinite knowledge. Those who cannot accept that infinite knowledge is impossible end up binging in knowledge which eventually self-destructs the individual. His further supports our faith - we mustn’t play God as there is only one. He is protecting us from that which we cannot fathom, as attempting to grasp what we cannot fathom can hurt us.
I agree, and think we just could not handle knowing even most of the ‘truth’ about our existence and the world we live in.

I also believe we have very very limited knowledge about our existence and the world around us, I think even if we were suddenly given access to more of this knowledge, we really could not comprehend it or what it means. it is strange though, in 2014, modern man only uses a small percentage of our total brains…I mean, what else COULD we do and achieve if we knew how to use majority of our brains?!!

I think some people have ‘conditioned’ themselves over a long period of time to use more of their brains than others, like people who are somewhat psychic, I tend to believe we could probably do alot of things if we only knew how to access unused portions of our minds, like telepathy, telekinesis, etc…It has been studied and some people do show signs of being at the tip of the iceberg of these abilities, but our world would be drastically different if everyone had these abilities, I think some people would use these ‘gifts’ for less than moral acts, crime would probably top this list, as if we all had telekinesis, I KNOW crime would be out of control!

I guess God knows best here though, and knows what we can ‘handle’ as far as mental abilities go, but still strange that our minds DO have abilities there, but we do not currently know how to access and put them to practical use. I wonder if someone is researching this somewhere now though, and wonder if eventually science will find a way for everyone to access these abilities?..interesting thing to ponder though!
 
in 2014, modern man only uses a small percentage of our total brains…I mean, what else COULD we do and achieve if we knew how to use majority of our brains?!!
This is just an urban legend, sadly.

At any given moment, large areas of the human brain are at rest, because the part of the body they operate is not being used, ie, when you are not walking or standing the part of your brain that controls your legs is at rest.

But over the course of time, all of our brain gets well used.

Think about it. More than a fourth of our bodies’ breath and blood goes to the brain; would it really make sense to overbuild such a high-maintenance system by a factor of 10?

ICXC NIKA.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top