Exodous says I can sell my daughter!

[ni8_shadow]

What is the Church’s take on Exodous and all the crazy laws AFTER the 10 Commandments? Sell your daughter, buy a slave…kill anyone who “insert offence here” you. It is God saying this right? Or God through Moses.

Saw that Penn and Teller thing on youtube and never read Exodous before so I was startled.

 

[Church_Militant]

Right…don’t give up your day job.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

How much for the little girl? Your daughters, the little girl, the other ones, sell me your women!

Jake Blues in The Blues Brothers.

 

[Hellisreal]

What is the Church’s take on Exodous and all the crazy laws AFTER the 10 Commandments? Sell your daughter, buy a slave…kill anyone who “insert offence here” you. It is God saying this right? Or God through Moses.

Saw that Penn and Teller thing on youtube and never read Exodous before so I was startled.

If you could cite some verses and post this in sacred scripture, you may get a response.

BTW, if you have any issues with exodous, why not post them also in the non catholic forum and ask the Jewish posters about that too just to see what their POV is.

You may find yourself immersed in the bible, if you actually pick it up and look at it, read it, ect.

 

[levi86]

What is the Church’s take on Exodous and all the crazy laws AFTER the 10 Commandments? Sell your daughter, buy a slave…kill anyone who “insert offence here” you. It is God saying this right? Or God through Moses.

Saw that Penn and Teller thing on youtube and never read Exodous before so I was startled.

Could you give us some examples (scriptural references) of some of these “crazy” laws?

With respect to “selling” ones daughter Exodus 21:7-11 says…

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do. But if her master, who had destined her for himself, dislikes her, he shall let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreigner, since he has broken faith with her. If he destines her for his son, he shall treat her like a daughter. If he takes another wife, he shall not withhold her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he does not grant her these three things, she shall be given her freedom absolutely, without cost to her.

I’m not quite sure what your objection is; this passage lays out some very specific laws that ensure the safety of female servants. Is your objection that she is “sold” in the first place? Why do you think Gods law is constrained by 21st century American concepts of individuality?

 

[Johenz]

I hope you get a good price for her. You’ll need the money for the legal fees.

 

[porthos11]

What is the Church’s take on Exodous and all the crazy laws AFTER the 10 Commandments? Sell your daughter, buy a slave…kill anyone who “insert offence here” you. It is God saying this right? Or God through Moses.

Saw that Penn and Teller thing on youtube and never read Exodous before so I was startled.

First of all, WHY haven’t you even read Exodus?

It’s because of that fact that you’re panicking.

 

[ni8_shadow]

Ahh gotta love those sarcastic remarks that help everyone out. I mean people come here to ask questions and learn and are met with such nice comments. Makes you want to come back for more.

I did not intend to say “See the Bible is full of all sorts of stuff like that.” But to ask how would you explain this to someone who did. I am finding that the more and more I share my faith, the more and more I “attract” the atheist group. They use Exodous like that a lot. I do not know the stance the Church takes so I really can’t comment.

“Why do you think Gods law is constrained by 21st century American concepts of individuality?”

Would it be ok for someone today to do that and say “See it’s in the Bible! As long as I follow the rules it’s ok!”

As for the other stuff EX 21 15-20 has certain criteria for putting people to death and saying it is ok to hit your slave, as long as the slave does not die, since the slave is money.

The classic lines I get are “Would you think it ok to put a man to death for these things? Or would it be ok to keep and beat a slave? The Bible says it is!!” The Bible does say these things…but I know the Church has THE interpretation and I want to know if anyone can share it with me.

I could read Exodous a dozen times and interpret it my own way…but that would make me Protestant wouldn’t it? I would like to read it with the Church’s interpretation in mind.

 

[Dale_M]

The classic lines I get are “Would you think it ok to put a man to death for these things? Or would it be ok to keep and beat a slave? The Bible says it is!!” The Bible does say these things…but I know the Church has THE interpretation and I want to know if anyone can share it with me.

And given that this in the Apologetics forum, I am sure you will eventually get a good answer. If not, you can always post in Ask an Apologist.

I don’t worry about biblical passages such as you mention because they are not important to Christianity. Were they important to Judaism thousands of years ago? Apparently, since they were recorded in the Bible. But Judaism and Christianity both have moved past their relevance. Such passages are mainly of historical interest.

I can say that because in Judaism, and in Catholicism, traditions of interpretation and worship are important. Our faith is living - it grows with the changes in culture and society.

I think that Biblical literalists would have difficulty explaining away such passages. But then, I think such persons are the main target of atheist obections.

 

[ni8_shadow]

Thanks. I actually thought of saying that, the whole “past their relevence thing.” But then if you can say that for those laws, then why not all the other ones? I might just ask an apologist. I posted this topic in the Non Catholic forum.

Thanks again

 

[Johenz]

I’m thinking, from the context of the passage, that Exodus is seeing the payment of a dowry of some sort as equivalent to selling a woman from your household. It then goes onto talk about “other” wives, and conjugal rights.

 

[levi86]

“Why do you think Gods law is constrained by 21st century American concepts of individuality?”

Would it be ok for someone today to do that and say “See it’s in the Bible! As long as I follow the rules it’s ok!”

The Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant i.e. without error. This does not assume that scripture is intended to be read literally, nor does it imply that laws or codes that were used to govern Gods people thousands of years ago are applicable today. However it does imply that these codes were at the time acceptable.

As for the other stuff EX 21 15-20 has certain criteria for putting people to death and saying it is ok to hit your slave, as long as the slave does not die, since the slave is money.

The classic lines I get are “Would you think it ok to put a man to death for these things? Or would it be ok to keep and beat a slave? The Bible says it is!!” The Bible does say these things…but I know the Church has THE interpretation and I want to know if anyone can share it with me.

I’m not quite sure how you would justify this to your atheist friends, but as a Catholic (as you are) these commands are easily justifiable. Think about it this way; if a person strikes his Father or Mother. (Exodus 21:15), kidnaps an individual (Exodus 21:16) or gravely dishonours his Mother or Father (Exodus 21:17) and dies before confessing will God send that individual to Hell (permanently put them to death)? Yes, of course. So why is it so unthinkable that God would command that people committing these offences would be put to death on earth?

With regards to the slave issue; slaves within an Israelite context were overwhelmingly “debt-slaves”, so the purpose of the slave being in submission to his master is to repay a debt he had already accumulated. BTW a master could not beat a slave for no reason; reprimands were administered when the “slave” did not meet his obligations to work i.e. to pay back his debt.

I could read Exodous a dozen times and interpret it my own way…but that would make me Protestant wouldn’t it? I would like to read it with the Church’s interpretation in mind.

Bingo:thumbsup:

 

[ni8_shadow]

Some laws, I think are not applicable to today as you state…but there lies the problem…if some are not…then can’t more? or even all? The picking and choosing thing is what my “pals” LOVE to use. “You guys pick the good stuff and leave the bad stuff. If it is God’s word then you must accept it all.”

Perhaps the Exodous was not meant to be used for today, only to show that God is the one who makes the rules and that we should follow them…and since Christ is God…Christ’s Church makes the rules and we should all follow it?

I gotta place this in the ask an apologist thread, see what the “big guns” say.

Selling daughter as slave…seems pretty straight forward. nothing about a dowry in that immed. passage…i could be wrong though

 

[porthos11]

And perhaps I should remain sarcastic, sorry to say.

The question stands. Exodus is an essential part of the Catholic faith and everything needs to be taken in context.

You yourself admitted that you didn’t read Exodus, but why not? You have the Church and you are safeguarded by her teaching authority.

Ahh gotta love those sarcastic remarks that help everyone out. I mean people come here to ask questions and learn and are met with such nice comments. Makes you want to come back for more.

I did not intend to say “See the Bible is full of all sorts of stuff like that.” But to ask how would you explain this to someone who did. I am finding that the more and more I share my faith, the more and more I “attract” the atheist group. They use Exodous like that a lot. I do not know the stance the Church takes so I really can’t comment.

“Why do you think Gods law is constrained by 21st century American concepts of individuality?”

Would it be ok for someone today to do that and say “See it’s in the Bible! As long as I follow the rules it’s ok!”

As for the other stuff EX 21 15-20 has certain criteria for putting people to death and saying it is ok to hit your slave, as long as the slave does not die, since the slave is money.

The classic lines I get are “Would you think it ok to put a man to death for these things? Or would it be ok to keep and beat a slave? The Bible says it is!!” The Bible does say these things…but I know the Church has THE interpretation and I want to know if anyone can share it with me.

I could read Exodous a dozen times and interpret it my own way…but that would make me Protestant wouldn’t it? I would like to read it with the Church’s interpretation in mind.

 

[Smber2c]

ni8-shadow, I apologise on behalf of the others who feel it amusing or appropriate to chastise others looking to learn about their faith. I honestly find it very challenging to not slam them for slamming you, but that would be rediculous wouldn’t it.

But getting to you question on the Mosaic Law. I’m not the magisterium. I’m not even a Catholic with a degree in any sort of theology, but one way that I’ve heard scripture explained makes alot of sense.

When one teaches math to a child they don’t start with calculus or trig. They start with counting 1 to 10. Then they add 2 plus 2. Eventually it’s multiplication and division. Then we throw in variables, exponents, etc… and eventually they can do the calculus. But all this is very complex and must be learned piece by piece.

Similarly, God continues to reveal his truth. From Abraham, to Issac, thru Moses, thru King David, Jesus…and even more so today with different councils, saints, and apparitions.
First it was, the basics “trust and obey God” taught to Abraham by needing to offer Issac.
Later it was leaning His 10 commandments with Moses.
Learning God’s might and his gentleness thru King David’s battles and psalms.
Knowing God’s ultimate love through Jesus.
His changing grace though Pentacost.
Learning the trinity through church fathers.
Mary’s role through church councils and apparitions…etc…

But just as calculus doesn’t controdict addition. Today’s Cathoicism shoudn’t contradict the early faith. It can clarify it. But God’s actions then if right, are still right in today’s world. His truth isn’t relative.

But there are complexities. Like in math, that whole thing with
1/3 = .3333E
.3333E x .33333E = .99999E
1/3 x 1/3 = 1.
.9999E = 1 ?
People who know more than me can say this isn’t problematic. I look at it and think…huh? With enough knowledge the present teaching shouldn’t contradict the old teaching, though some may be context specific.

 

[mapleoak]

But there are complexities. Like in math, that whole thing with
1/3 = .3333E

Correct

.3333E x .33333E = .99999E

Incorrect, it approximates .11111111

1/3 x 1/3 = 1

Incorrect.
Equals 1/6.

.9999E = 1 ?

Incorrect, approximates 1.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Would it be ok for someone today to do that and say “See it’s in the Bible! As long as I follow the rules it’s ok!”

As for the other stuff EX 21 15-20 has certain criteria for putting people to death and saying it is ok to hit your slave, as long as the slave does not die, since the slave is money.

The classic lines I get are “Would you think it ok to put a man to death for these things? Or would it be ok to keep and beat a slave? The Bible says it is!!” The Bible does say these things…but I know the Church has THE interpretation and I want to know if anyone can share it with me.

In Matthew 19:8, Christ points out an example (divorce) of something permitted in the Law of Moses that is no longer permitted. His overall message throughout his earthly ministry is that the Law was given to conform hardened hearts to the will of God. Christ came to fulfill the Law, and he did so by demonstrating that at its heart is love. The two greatest commandments are to love God and to love one’s neighbor.

Notice also how God operates throughout salvation history: he meets mankind where mankind is – in other words, he takes what they know and turns it to his purposes. The Law of Moses is not unlike the laws of other civilizations in a lot of ways. The example you gave of selling one’s daughter clearly indicates that this practice was commonplace and needed to be curtailed. Thus, the Law of Moses began the process of shaping Israel into a distinct people – the people of God – which was culminated in Christ.

I recommend reading what the Catechism has to say on this subject.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Exalt]

Could you give us some examples (scriptural references) of some of these “crazy” laws?

With respect to “selling” ones daughter Exodus 21:7-11 says…

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do. But if her master, who had destined her for himself, dislikes her, he shall let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreigner, since he has broken faith with her. If he destines her for his son, he shall treat her like a daughter. If he takes another wife, he shall not withhold her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he does not grant her these three things, she shall be given her freedom absolutely, without cost to her.

I’m not quite sure what your objection is; this passage lays out some very specific laws that ensure the safety of female servants. Is your objection that she is “sold” in the first place? Why do you think Gods law is constrained by 21st century American concepts of individuality?

This is what scares me about religion: rationalization of horrible institutions and practices, like slavery. I suppose if I quote you the battle of Jericho - and the genocide described therein - you’ll say “Gods law isn’t constrained by 21st century American concepts of just war” or something?

Ugh. Take off the blinders already. Why can’t you see that there are passages in the Old Testament that are just plain wrong? Why can’t you see that slavery is wrong, no matter what the age or culture involved? Why can’t you see that genocide is wrong, no matter who says God authorized it?

 

[VociMike]

Some laws, I think are not applicable to today as you state…but there lies the problem…if some are not…then can’t more? or even all? The picking and choosing thing is what my “pals” LOVE to use. “You guys pick the good stuff and leave the bad stuff. If it is God’s word then you must accept it all.”

There are particular laws that God gave the Israelites, and there are general laws that are clearly intended for all mankind. The 10 Commandments fall into the latter category.

How does one know which laws apply to us today? It’s all there in the bible, and the answer is, listen to the Church. The Council in Jerusalem was an example of the Church deciding which laws applied to all Christians, and which did not. And the Church has been exercising that discretion and that authority ever since.

 

[ni8_shadow]

"And perhaps I should remain sarcastic, sorry to say.

The question stands. Exodus is an essential part of the Catholic faith and everything needs to be taken in context.

You yourself admitted that you didn’t read Exodus, but why not? You have the Church and you are safeguarded by her teaching authority." -Porthos11

Well I don’t have the teaching authority hotline on speed dial, so that is why I posed it here. I tried reading it and trying to see how the context might be used by the Church, but I am no Bible scholar so that is why I posted it here.

Thanks for all the comments. The salvation history take was interesting…meeting man and revealing things in steps…perhaps if God came out and all of a sudden and said “All the stuff you are doing is wrong so don’t do it anymore” people would simply get shocked and not want to listen? I am still waiting for the response in the A.A.A forum (not the auto club forum…although that would be ineresting…)