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Artemus86
Guest
Why are we using Cross as symbol?
Ancient Christian didn’t use as their symbol…Who really teach us to do so?
Ancient Christian didn’t use as their symbol…Who really teach us to do so?
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Della
Guest
The early Christians used many symbols, especially the fish. I don’t know where you got the idea that Ex. 20:4 applies to Christian symbolism. It doesn’t. Even Israel used symbols to represent aspects of their faith. The prescription against “graven images” is against making idols of the gods, especially the gods of Egypt which the Israelites had seen all their lives.
God alone is to be worshiped, and since Jesus is God, using images of him and of his passion are perfectly fine since they do not lead us to worship gods, but draw our attention to the one, true God.
Paul reminded the Galatians that they had seen Christ crucified: Gal.3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Apparently they had some form of cross or crucifix because Paul refers to it here.
God alone is to be worshiped, and since Jesus is God, using images of him and of his passion are perfectly fine since they do not lead us to worship gods, but draw our attention to the one, true God.
Paul reminded the Galatians that they had seen Christ crucified: Gal.3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Apparently they had some form of cross or crucifix because Paul refers to it here.
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06convert
Guest
Yeah people are visual beings. It helps to have an image or something tangable to look at, touch, sense.
For these reasons we have crosses, statues, etc. They are to remind us (like a photgraph of a loved one) of the person and what they stand for.
The items themselves should not be idolized or worshipped.
For these reasons we have crosses, statues, etc. They are to remind us (like a photgraph of a loved one) of the person and what they stand for.
The items themselves should not be idolized or worshipped.
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Soutane
Guest
Probably St Paul as he stated in Holy Scripture,“We preach Christ crucified”.Which is another reason that the Catholic cross(crucifix) always contains the corpus.The cross,that implement of horror,humiliation,degradation,and torture has no other meaning without Christ suffering.Before anyone gets on my case about the Sacrifice being over and that Catholics shouldn’t…yadda,yadda,yadda,Please remember if the Sacrifice was not eternal it woul have no meaning.Besides,we are simultaneously at the Last Supper and Calvary at every mass so the “symbol”(I prefer sacramental) is MOST apropos.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
Consider this from the Haydock Bible Commentary on Exodus 20:4
A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing, &c. All such images or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary, so far from being forbidden are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Exodus xxv. 15, &c.; chap. xxxviii. 7; Numbers xxi. 8, 9; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 18, 19; 2 Chronicles iii. 10. (Challoner) — Protestants insidiously translate “any graven image,” though pesel, eidolon, glupton, and sculptile, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, denote a graven thing or idol. They will, however, hardly condemn his majesty for having his representation stamped upon the coin of the nation, nor so many of our wealthy noblemen, who adorn their rooms with the choicest efforts of painting and of sculpture. They know that the object of prohibition is the making and adoring of idols. But they probably wish to keep the ignorant under the stupid delusion of supposing, that Catholics are idolaters, because they have images, and that they themselves are not, though they have them likewise at home; and even in their churches admit the absurd figures of the lion and the unicorn, stretching their paws over the tables of the law, instead of the pious representations of Jesus expiring on the cross, &c., which were set up by their Catholic ancestors. Let them read, and adopt herein just weights and measures, proposed to them by Thorndike, one of their most discerning and moderate teachers. In the mean time, we will assure them, that we abhor all idols; both those made with hands, and those which are formed by the head of heretics, who set up their own fancies and delusions, to be adored instead of the true God. Our general councils of Nice and of Trent define what we ought to believe on this head; and the matter is so fully explained in our catechisms and books of instruction, as well as from our pulpits, that no person can well remain in ignorance. If we perform various actions of respect before pictures, which are also done in honour of God, can any man of sense infer, that we look upon both with equal respect? Do we not read of the people falling down to shew respect to the king, and supreme worship to God, by the same act of the body? (Haydock) — Altars and sacrifice we reserve solely for God, as St. Augustine (contra Faust. xx. 21) well observes. Other indifferent practices must be determined by the intention. — Latria, or supreme worship, can be given to none but the Deity. But we shew our respect and veneration for his servants in glory, by an inferior service called Dulia, giving honour to whom honour is due. How profane and impious must the words of the first reformers appear, who, after saying most falsely, that “papists make the Virgin Mary a god, (Luther. postil.) and worship images in heathenish manner,” (Melanct. Loc. com.) attribute various fictitious crimes to the blessed Virgin and other saints! (Centuriators of Magdeburg; Calvin, &c.) They knew that all the saints abhorred their impiety; and therefore, in revenge, they vilify the saints, and condemn all the doctors and fathers of the Church, since the death of the apostles, as guilty of superstition and idolatry. (Haydock) — “By this occasion, dead creatures, and bloodless half worm-eaten bones, began to be honoured, invocated, and worshipped with divine honour. All which the doctors of the Church not only winked at, but also set forward.” (Centuriators of Magdeburg, Chap. vi.) What is then become of the promises of God, to teach all the truth by the mouths of his pastors? (Matthew xxviii, &c.) Let others judge, whether we ought to pay greater deference to Saints Jerome, Augustine, Gregory, &c., or to Luther, Calvin, and the Centuriators of Magdeburg. But some will even admit that images were commanded by God, chap. xxv. 18, &c. Hence they lay great stress upon the words to thyself; as if all images were forbidden that man should make, without the express sanction of God. So Parkhurst Lexic. But those who are conversant in Hebrew, know that these words have no such import; and if things were inseparable from idolatry, they could not be sanctioned by God. (Haydock) — No creature must be represented as a deity. But sovereign worship, both internal and external, must be given to the great Author of all good, while we abstain from every superstitious act, and from all dealings with the devil and false religions. (Calmet) — Protestants, therefore, who only forbid images, diminish God’s law. Were not the idols of Chanaan, Chamos, &c., which represented nothing in nature, also condemned?
A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing, &c. All such images or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary, so far from being forbidden are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Exodus xxv. 15, &c.; chap. xxxviii. 7; Numbers xxi. 8, 9; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 18, 19; 2 Chronicles iii. 10. (Challoner) — Protestants insidiously translate “any graven image,” though pesel, eidolon, glupton, and sculptile, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, denote a graven thing or idol. They will, however, hardly condemn his majesty for having his representation stamped upon the coin of the nation, nor so many of our wealthy noblemen, who adorn their rooms with the choicest efforts of painting and of sculpture. They know that the object of prohibition is the making and adoring of idols. But they probably wish to keep the ignorant under the stupid delusion of supposing, that Catholics are idolaters, because they have images, and that they themselves are not, though they have them likewise at home; and even in their churches admit the absurd figures of the lion and the unicorn, stretching their paws over the tables of the law, instead of the pious representations of Jesus expiring on the cross, &c., which were set up by their Catholic ancestors. Let them read, and adopt herein just weights and measures, proposed to them by Thorndike, one of their most discerning and moderate teachers. In the mean time, we will assure them, that we abhor all idols; both those made with hands, and those which are formed by the head of heretics, who set up their own fancies and delusions, to be adored instead of the true God. Our general councils of Nice and of Trent define what we ought to believe on this head; and the matter is so fully explained in our catechisms and books of instruction, as well as from our pulpits, that no person can well remain in ignorance. If we perform various actions of respect before pictures, which are also done in honour of God, can any man of sense infer, that we look upon both with equal respect? Do we not read of the people falling down to shew respect to the king, and supreme worship to God, by the same act of the body? (Haydock) — Altars and sacrifice we reserve solely for God, as St. Augustine (contra Faust. xx. 21) well observes. Other indifferent practices must be determined by the intention. — Latria, or supreme worship, can be given to none but the Deity. But we shew our respect and veneration for his servants in glory, by an inferior service called Dulia, giving honour to whom honour is due. How profane and impious must the words of the first reformers appear, who, after saying most falsely, that “papists make the Virgin Mary a god, (Luther. postil.) and worship images in heathenish manner,” (Melanct. Loc. com.) attribute various fictitious crimes to the blessed Virgin and other saints! (Centuriators of Magdeburg; Calvin, &c.) They knew that all the saints abhorred their impiety; and therefore, in revenge, they vilify the saints, and condemn all the doctors and fathers of the Church, since the death of the apostles, as guilty of superstition and idolatry. (Haydock) — “By this occasion, dead creatures, and bloodless half worm-eaten bones, began to be honoured, invocated, and worshipped with divine honour. All which the doctors of the Church not only winked at, but also set forward.” (Centuriators of Magdeburg, Chap. vi.) What is then become of the promises of God, to teach all the truth by the mouths of his pastors? (Matthew xxviii, &c.) Let others judge, whether we ought to pay greater deference to Saints Jerome, Augustine, Gregory, &c., or to Luther, Calvin, and the Centuriators of Magdeburg. But some will even admit that images were commanded by God, chap. xxv. 18, &c. Hence they lay great stress upon the words to thyself; as if all images were forbidden that man should make, without the express sanction of God. So Parkhurst Lexic. But those who are conversant in Hebrew, know that these words have no such import; and if things were inseparable from idolatry, they could not be sanctioned by God. (Haydock) — No creature must be represented as a deity. But sovereign worship, both internal and external, must be given to the great Author of all good, while we abstain from every superstitious act, and from all dealings with the devil and false religions. (Calmet) — Protestants, therefore, who only forbid images, diminish God’s law. Were not the idols of Chanaan, Chamos, &c., which represented nothing in nature, also condemned?
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Note that the brazen serpent in Numbers 21:6-9
that Moses placed on a pole was a type for the crucifix.
John 3:14. As the bitten Israelite was was healed when he looked upon the serpent, we, sinners, are healed when we gaze upon our crucified Lord.
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Sir_Anthony
Guest
Because that is what tradition has as a symbol, the earliest Christians probably didn’t use them, but as the church grew, symbolism becomes important when you are dealing with illiterate population, in fact the whole Mass is practically developed so that you don’t have to be literate to participate in the Church life. The words we say, the actions we do in the Church is a way of living scriptures and the life. The cross is a focal point so that we may grow and appreciate the beauty of the sacrifice. It is a symbol for all ages.
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Valke2
Guest
Ancient christians didn’t use indoor plumbing either. Ways change.
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Artemus86
Guest
Crucifixion (from Latin crucifixio, noun of process from perfect passive participle crucifixus, fixed to a cross, from prefix cruci-, cross, + verb ficere, fix or do, variant form of facere, do or make )[1] is an ancient method of execution, whereby the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (of various shapes) and left to hang until dead.
How can we so sure that Jesus was Crucified on a T-shape wood?
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ConallCernach
Guest
Not a history major on this, but it was likely the most common form. It would also have to be a shape that would be able to be inverted, so as Peter was able to crucified upside down. Another one of the apostles was crucified on an X shaped cross. I imagine that they kept track of Christ’s.
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Artemus86
Guest
That isn’t proof for Jesus T-Shaped Cross
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ConallCernach
Guest
Nope, but Tradition would suggest that it’s a non-symmetrical shape. What other crosses are there in the list of varying shapes?
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Artemus86
Guest
I-shaped
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ConallCernach
Guest
I’m pondering about how great I-shaped would actually be for the crucifixion process. Considering that it is meant to put the person to death via suffocation, I-shaped would seem to make it less likely to put the person to death via suffocation.
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ConallCernach
Guest
As a post-script
The epistle of Barnabas states that the cross of Jesus was shaped like “tau” the Greek letter in it’s ninth chapter.
The epistle of Barnabas states that the cross of Jesus was shaped like “tau” the Greek letter in it’s ninth chapter.
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Artemus86
Guest
Less likely? But it still can cause death, right?
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ConallCernach
Guest
Perhaps, but not through suffocation, anyways, see my post just previous to this.
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Artemus86
Guest
“tau” ? What is it?
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ConallCernach
Guest
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Todd_Easton
Guest
Clement of Alexandria was an ancient Christian who regarded the cross symbol as “the Lord’s sign.” Writing about A.D. 202, in his Stomateis (book vi., chapter xi.), he said:
the character “T”] representing 300 is, as to shape, the type of the Lord’s sign (source)
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