Exodus 32:14 and the Immutable Nature of God

[Mike_O]

I’ve always found this passage a bit strange. It reads along the lines of (off the top of my head): “And the Lord was appeased of the evil which He would have done.”

First, all treatises on God that I have ever read assert his unchangeable nature; He is unaffected by time and space. Because He is outside of time, His Will is preternal also. His Will exists now outside of time and is always. Prayer cannot change the will of God, therefore, which makes Moses’ prayer puzzling insofar as the Lord was “appeased” of His intention. How, exegetically, is this possible?

Second, the Lord, as perfect good, is incapable of evil. Evil is a perversion of good. Hatred is a perversion of love. God is perfect good and perfect Love. This is an additionally troubling aspect of this passage.

My final question for any apologist regarding this passage and others throughout Exodus is the manner in which God communicates to Moses. God is not corporeal. He is spiritual Being. But in Exodus Moses apparently sees the back parts of God. In what manner does God communicate with Moses, and how does Moses hear a voice from God who is Spiritual Being?

Thank you to anyone who can reply with the answer. If possible please avoid speculation in lieu of actual replies in line with the Magisterium.

 

[DavidFilmer]

“And the Lord was appeased of the evil which He would have done.”

I think we are to understand the word “evil” in the sense of “disaster” (and, indeed, many translations use this term). I don’t think the author was accusing God of moral evil.

But the dichotomy at the root of your question is not valid. You suppose (as I understand it) that “once God’s mind is made up, he can never change his mind about that because his nature is immutable.”

There are two problems with this line of reasoning. First, it confuses nature and will. God is both just and merciful by nature. His initial reaction in this story reflects his justice, and the outcome reflects his mercy. Since these are both traits of the Divine Nature, there is no mutability here. God’s Nature cannot change, but his Will can (if it could not, we could not have free will).

Secondly, you must consider that the Lord’s (just) decision to punish the people was brought about as a result of their sinful actions. The (merciful) decision to spare them was brought about by Abraham’s righteous actions (pleading on their behalf). Shall God not consider both the righteous and the sinful? Before Abraham spoke, there was only the sinful to consider. But once Abraham added even a tiny bit of righteousness, it stayed God’s punishment.

I find nothing in this passage that is inconsistent with Catholic teaching. In fact, it reinforces teaching about the importance of intecessory prayer (that’s what Abraham did).

 

[Nan_S]

Mike O:

First, all treatises on God that I have ever read assert his unchangeable nature; He is unaffected by time and space. Because He is outside of time, His Will is preternal also. His Will exists now outside of time and is always. Prayer cannot change the will of God, therefore, which makes Moses’ prayer puzzling insofar as the Lord was “appeased” of His intention. How, exegetically, is this possible?

God does indeed exist outside of linear time, but humans do not. And God is capable of entering and operating in linear time with us; He just brings along the omnipotent knowledge He has, sort of like a scuba diver brings along his own oxygen supply underwater.

God know beforehand that his people would repent. But God also knew that His bound-by-linear-time people would have to be threatened before they repented, and that the threat had to be genuine. So He made the threat and when they did repent, as He knew they would - this time - God withdrew the threat.

 

[Mike_O]

How does prayer fit into this? God and His Will are inseparable. God is unchangeable and so is His Will. How does prayer affect a Will that never changes. How can God be moved to alter His plans, or, as I suspect, how is prayer said to have efficacy if God’s Will never changes.

 

[Genesis315]

I think of it this way. God is perfect justice. The people had done bad stuff and therefore something would have to be done to balance this out–to serve justice. God could have caused natural disasters to punish them and do justice, but instead the prayer Moses offers up balances the justice. That’s how powerful prayer is! We often see prayer compared to a sacrifice in Scripture as well as i often serves the same purpose as to satisfying justice.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Mike O:

How does prayer fit into this? God and His Will are inseparable. God is unchangeable and so is His Will.

You are still confusing “will” and “nature.” God cannot change his nature. But neither can you change your own nature. Nobody can change their nature (except, prehaps, by dying).

How does prayer affect a Will that never changes. How can God be moved to alter His plans, or, as I suspect, how is prayer said to have efficacy if God’s Will never changes.

If you believe that God’s will can never change, then nothing we ever do could affect his will. That means we cannot effect either our own salvation or damnation (since God’s mind about us was already made up before the world began). That’s sort of like predestination, but worse, because predestination holds that we are destined to be either good or bad, but this idea holds that God simply doesn’t care if we are good or bad - nothing we do could possibly matter.

This includes, by the way, the Sacrifice of Calvary. Jesus would have died for nothing if God’s will could not change. But we know better.

 

[Pax]

Prayer and supplication to God appear to influence how God will interact with us. Do we somehow change God’s mind with our prayers? To answer this question it is probably best to look at everything from a “if/and” perspective. If we are repentent God will forgive us. If we pray for what we need and we pray properly, God will bless us. In some cases, our prayers must be continuous and we must persevere in prayer. In those instances our prayers are answered if we meet the conditions of persistent and sincere prayer.

I hope this helps.

 

[Mike_O]

DavidFilmer:

You are still confusing “will” and “nature.” God cannot change his nature.

No, there is no confusion. The mind of God is His Will, which is inextricably entwined with His immutable nature.

If He has foreknowledge of all events, His mind and His Will are determined. This is not predestination; God knows before a soul is created whether that soul will or will not achieve salvation, but that doesn’t mean the soul does not have its own free will at stake in selecting a path to follow. God cannot change His mind because He is unchangeable. If He has unchangeable, how can His will be altered? He knows what will happen already.

If you believe that God’s will can never change, then nothing we ever do could affect his will. That means we cannot effect either our own salvation or damnation (since God’s mind about us was already made up before the world began).

No, God’s KNOWLEDGE of us is complete before the world began. This has no bearing upon how we use the free will He has bestowed.

This includes, by the way, the Sacrifice of Calvary. Jesus would have died for nothing if God’s will could not change. But we know better.

It seems you are saying that God’s Will at one point was not to die and then somewhere along the way He changed His mind and decided to die on the cross.

That makes no sense.