Exodus, Levitcus help

[ajecphotos]

But, what gets me is that God said to love our neighbour etc but on the other hand he let the Israel people kill those that got in their way so that they could take over their lands!

 

[Jon_S_1]

But, what gets me is that God said to love our neighbour etc but on the other hand he let the Israel people kill those that got in their way so that they could take over their lands!

Perhaps , if God did not order that, the Jewish nation would have failed, killed by the Canaanites , and the world would not have formed in such a way to accept Christ.

Ultimately, it is not unjust for God to take life, since without him there is no life.

In fact… I know it may be shocking…but God will take everyone’s life on this earth at some point!

 

[ajecphotos]

Perhaps , if God did not order that, the Jewish nation would have failed, killed by the Canaanites , and the world would not have formed in such a way to accept Christ.

Ultimately, it is not unjust for God to take life, since without him there is no life.

Good point.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

You cannot attempt to evaluate God’s reasons for doing what He did in the Old Testament. God doesn’t respond to anyone or anything. We are his in our entirety, and if he wants to kill 10 million people, he can do so freely. He does not respond to moral codes or any other ‘rules’.

Certainly, He had good reasons to do what he did, even though it might seem horrible to us. It is not our duty to discern WHY God decides to do certain things. Why do millions of people die of hunger, thirst, and terrible illnesses every year? Does it mean that God is cruel? Not at all. He has a benevolent plan for human Salvation, and, since we are his property, he can do whatever he wants with us. We do not know his ways.

At the Second Coming, God will reveal his overall plan for human salvation. We can expect to find out WHY God did what he did then, and not before.

Ultimately, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ showed God’s inherent goodness in a more tangible fashion than anything in the Old Testament. However, our mere existence, which God freely chose to bestow on every human life, is already proof of God’s goodness per se. If God wants to put us to death or reward us with wealth, or if he gives us 100 years to live - it is not up to us to discern why he did so.

Dear JRTJ you said "Why do millions of people die of hunger, thirst, and terrible illnesses every year? Does it mean that God is cruel? "

No, I do not think God is responsible for this: IT IS US who are responsible: it is us who are cruel. But we live in a very complicated system and Jesus told us that we will have poor always and that we can do good to them whenever we want. Mk 14:7 So we can put our little grain of sand by doing good to the poor when ever we want and can.

So let us not make God responsible for what we should do

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Ok, so in OT days things were very different and God had a different set of rules?

Jesus came to save us from our sins etc and thus has changed the way in which God wants things done?

On Leviticus now and boy, that is a hard read! All the blood of offerings and leprosy etc etc! Phew

Dear Ajec, I think that what God order in the terms of morality in the O.T., the killing of immoral people (for example, the adulterous, the homosexuals, the murders, etc.) has not changed but made worse with the coming of Christ.:bigyikes:

We Christians do not kill anymore the people that behave in these ways, we only wish and tell them that they should repent, but look what is going to happen to them at the end time:

"8 But the cowardly, and faithless, and the abominable, and murderers,and the sexually immoral, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which is burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Rev 21:8

So you see the death penalty in the O.T. still hanging here but in a more horrendous way: eternal death of your soul! God has not repent of His moral laws but we do not have to worry about what the Jews were taught we have to worry to maintain and keep what Jesus is teaching us.

In the love of Christ and the forgiveness that He brought to us,
Gloria

,

 

[ajecphotos]

Thanks

 

[lightbeamrider]

People, I am reading the bible this year and I am quite shocked by what I read in Exodus and Leviticus. About death for sin and certain rules etc.

Was/is God really like that? Or, was all this changed when Jesus came among us?

I feel saddened by what I have read. It has really shocked me people!

Dietary restrictions, circumcision and animal sacrifice is all done away. All the ceremonies related to these practices which specifically refer to the sons of Israel.

Lev. 18 is interesting as it is addressed to the sons of Israel regarding the extreme vice of both Egypt and Canaan. So that has a universal appeal.

At that time Israel was a Theocracy. We are not.

Stoning children probably meant youth who were a threat to the community in general. Two women, as far as i know were killed. One was Jezebel and the other Athaliah, [2 Kings 11]both exceptionally wicked. Doubtful Israelite men relished the thought of stoning to death a female. Either way do not see any explicit examples of that happening. At the pregnancy of Mary, Joseph was going to write a certificate of divorce and avoided the strict letter of law regarding death. That was before he had the visit from the angel who cued him in on what was happening. Certainly Joseph must have been shocked! Joseph is probably representative of a lot of Israelite males.

Slave regulation is another biggie which offends 21st century sensibilities but it was the norm in the ancient world as was whippings as punishment both for slaves and non slaves. Slaves in Israel had it fairly well compared to other ancient countries. So unless you are specific it is hard to know what you are addressing in those two books. Leviticus and Numbers for the most part dry reading. Keep in mind Israel was liberated from cruel Egyptian slavery which lasted for 400 years and the Canaanites were given that much time to turn things around but they did not. They were into infant sacrifice and went as far as bestiality. Who knows the extent of these practices in those cultures. They were exceptionally corrupt even by modern standards. At some point those cultures became so corrupt the only thing left was to stop the madness.

 

[mikekle]

People, I am reading the bible this year and I am quite shocked by what I read in Exodus and Leviticus. About death for sin and certain rules etc.

Was/is God really like that? Or, was all this changed when Jesus came among us?

I feel saddened by what I have read. It has really shocked me people!

Ive thought the same thing, and another thing that makes me think more about this, is that the bible says many times and in many ways, God has always been the same, will always be the same and can NEVER change, so this is saying God is still the same vengeful God in the OT.

a final note, 21st century ways are not important to God, and probably should not be important to us either…and this may be the reason the world is the state it currently is. God does not care about what is popular or common in modern times.

 

[ajecphotos]

Just finished reading Leviticus and it was a very hard read. Got to admit i was glad when i finished it! It also seems very far fetched if i may say so. Was it really like that for Moses and his people? Did they really have to do the things instructed in Leviticus? Was God really that way or is it not 100% right or if it is, is God still like that?

Lots of questions

 

[ShynSup]

Just finished reading Leviticus and it was a very hard read. Got to admit i was glad when i finished it! It also seems very far fetched if i may say so. Was it really like that for Moses and his people? Did they really have to do the things instructed in Leviticus? Was God really that way or is it not 100% right or if it is, is God still like that?

Lots of questions

Why do Christians not obey the Old Testaments commands to kill homosexuals and disobedient children?
by Matt Slick

Critics of the Bible often cite Old Testament instances of slavery, violence against homosexuals, wiping out nations, etc., as evidence of a morally inadequate set of rules. They will also often ask why present-day Christians don’t follow these “barbaric” teachings today. They complain that Christians are inconsistent, and say that if we really follow the Bible then why don’t we advocate such things as killing both homosexuals (Lev. 20:13) and disobedient children (Deut. 21:18-21).

The reason we don’t is because the Old Covenantal system, that involved such harsh punishments, has been done away with. We are under a new covenant. Jesus said in Luke 22:20, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.”

This new covenant was prophecied in the Old Testament in Jer. 31:31, “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." It is referenced in 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:8, 9:15; and 12:24.

Of particular importance to our topic is Heb. 8:13 which says, “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” The Old Covenant with its harsh judicial judgments is no longer in effect because we are under a New Covenant.

Part of the reason the Old Testament covenantal system was so harsh is because first, the Old Testament law demonstrates the severity of righteousness and the requirement of perfection before a holy God. Galatians 3:24 says that the law is what points us to Christ. It does this by showing us that we are not able to keep the law and that the only way of obtaining righteousness before God is through the sacrifice of Jesus, who was God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).

Second, the Old Testament times were very difficult and there were many nations that warred against Israel. Also, the devil and his demonic horde was constantly working to destroy Israel in order to invalidate the prophecies of the coming Messiah, to therefore prevent the Messiah from being born and delivering his people. Therefore, God instituted laws, as difficult as they were, that were consistent with the culture of the times, that ensured the survival of the Jewish nation, that helped to maintain social structure, and also reflected the harshness of the law.

The New Testament covenantal system says that we are to “be at peace with one another,” (Mark 9:50) and “with all men,” (Rom. 12:18). Rom. 14:19 says, “pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.” After all, “God has called us to peace,” (1 Cor. 7:15).

However, this does not mean that we are to approve of such sins as homosexuality, adultery, lying, and stealing. We are to not participate in the sins of the world. Instead, we are to avoid them. We are not to be violent to anyone since the old theonomic, covenantal system has been done away with (Heb. 8:13). Instead, we are to be kind to them (2 Tim. 2:24-25) and show them love (1 Cor. 16:14; 2 Cor. 5:14). But the moral condemnation of immorality still stands – as is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-28.

So, the reason Christians are not obligated to stone homosexuals, disobedient children, and adulterers, is because we’re no longer underneath the Old Testament covenantal system. It has been fulfilled and done away with (Heb. 8:13).

What right do you have to judge?

In order for someone to raise a valid objection against the moral statutes of the Old Testament, he or she must provide a standard by which such judgments can be made. While people may not agree with the moral judgments of the Old Testament, not agreeing does not invalidate them or mean they are wrong; nor does simply saying “they were obviously barbaric rules” mean that they were. Likewise, saying that “society has evolved” is a meaningless statement. By what standard does the critic offer morally objective criteria by which he or she can judge another culture’s morals?

We have to ask what right does a person in a present-day culture have to judge any ancient culture which existed in a completely different economic, militaristic, judicial, and geographical configuration? Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and they don’t have to like what the Bible teaches, but not liking it has no bearing on whether or not it is good. So, those critics who insist that the Old Testament laws were wrong need to provide an objective standard (not their own opinions) by which they can make moral judgments.

Added by me: obviously people who try to refute the bible often do not belive in God, and so they do not belive in an objective morality, but in a subjective one. Somif for someone its right to kill, they say, fine, its their opinion. Thats how atheists are. Let us pray for them.

 

[oldcelt]

Why do Christians not obey the Old Testaments commands to kill homosexuals and disobedient children?
by Matt Slick

Critics of the Bible often cite Old Testament instances of slavery, violence against homosexuals, wiping out nations, etc., as evidence of a morally inadequate set of rules. They will also often ask why present-day Christians don’t follow these “barbaric” teachings today. They complain that Christians are inconsistent, and say that if we really follow the Bible then why don’t we advocate such things as killing both homosexuals (Lev. 20:13) and disobedient children (Deut. 21:18-21).

The reason we don’t is because the Old Covenantal system, that involved such harsh punishments, has been done away with. We are under a new covenant. Jesus said in Luke 22:20, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.”

This new covenant was prophecied in the Old Testament in Jer. 31:31, “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." It is referenced in 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:8, 9:15; and 12:24.

Of particular importance to our topic is Heb. 8:13 which says, “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” The Old Covenant with its harsh judicial judgments is no longer in effect because we are under a New Covenant.

Part of the reason the Old Testament covenantal system was so harsh is because first, the Old Testament law demonstrates the severity of righteousness and the requirement of perfection before a holy God. Galatians 3:24 says that the law is what points us to Christ. It does this by showing us that we are not able to keep the law and that the only way of obtaining righteousness before God is through the sacrifice of Jesus, who was God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).

Second, the Old Testament times were very difficult and there were many nations that warred against Israel. Also, the devil and his demonic horde was constantly working to destroy Israel in order to invalidate the prophecies of the coming Messiah, to therefore prevent the Messiah from being born and delivering his people. Therefore, God instituted laws, as difficult as they were, that were consistent with the culture of the times, that ensured the survival of the Jewish nation, that helped to maintain social structure, and also reflected the harshness of the law.

The New Testament covenantal system says that we are to “be at peace with one another,” (Mark 9:50) and “with all men,” (Rom. 12:18). Rom. 14:19 says, “pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.” After all, “God has called us to peace,” (1 Cor. 7:15).

However, this does not mean that we are to approve of such sins as homosexuality, adultery, lying, and stealing. We are to not participate in the sins of the world. Instead, we are to avoid them. We are not to be violent to anyone since the old theonomic, covenantal system has been done away with (Heb. 8:13). Instead, we are to be kind to them (2 Tim. 2:24-25) and show them love (1 Cor. 16:14; 2 Cor. 5:14). But the moral condemnation of immorality still stands – as is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-28.

So, the reason Christians are not obligated to stone homosexuals, disobedient children, and adulterers, is because we’re no longer underneath the Old Testament covenantal system. It has been fulfilled and done away with (Heb. 8:13).

What right do you have to judge?

In order for someone to raise a valid objection against the moral statutes of the Old Testament, he or she must provide a standard by which such judgments can be made. While people may not agree with the moral judgments of the Old Testament, not agreeing does not invalidate them or mean they are wrong; nor does simply saying “they were obviously barbaric rules” mean that they were. Likewise, saying that “society has evolved” is a meaningless statement. By what standard does the critic offer morally objective criteria by which he or she can judge another culture’s morals?

We have to ask what right does a person in a present-day culture have to judge any ancient culture which existed in a completely different economic, militaristic, judicial, and geographical configuration? Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and they don’t have to like what the Bible teaches, but not liking it has no bearing on whether or not it is good. So, those critics who insist that the Old Testament laws were wrong need to provide an objective standard (not their own opinions) by which they can make moral judgments.

Added by me: obviously people who try to refute the bible often do not belive in God, and so they do not belive in an objective morality, but in a subjective one. Somif for someone its right to kill, they say, fine, its their opinion. Thats how atheists are. Let us pray for them.

So, are you saying that people have to come up with a reason why stoning children to death is abhorrent behavior (Deuteronomy 21)? I guess I always figured that was a given. The standard reply is that we simply do not understand the purpose of the deity’s decision. To that I counter, if the simple mind of man can smell something rotten in state of Denmark, that’s one heck of a starting point.

It also strongly suggests that either God couldn’t get it right the first time, or the divine was just winging it. The reason for that is another one of those mysteries.

John

 

[ShynSup]

So, are you saying that people have to come up with a reason why stoning children to death is abhorrent behavior (Deuteronomy 21)? I guess I always figured that was a given. The standard reply is that we simply do not understand the purpose of the deity’s decision. To that I counter, if the simple mind of man can smell something rotten in state of Denmark, that’s one heck of a starting point.

It also strongly suggests that either God couldn’t get it right the first time, or the divine was just winging it. The reason for that is another one of those mysteries.

John

Sorry I am not following.

I have argued with many atheist and they do actually sustain those points, that there is no objective morality, that good are wrong are just standards made by man, and that they do no really mean much.

About, “God couldnt get it right the first time” please explain further, i do not see it in the text I qouted.

 

[ShynSup]

Are you kiddin’?
It used to be way worse!
People killed or raped at a whim without batting an eye…we hung people in public, we burned women, we fed people to lions…you were jailed or killed for your religious beliefs…women were third-class citizens…we had slavery…epidemics and no antibiotics…tyrannical rulers, no democracy at all…no painkillers…we nailed and crucified hundreds of people every day to crosses and left them there to die slowly…it was way, WAY, worse!

.

Just no, the world is much worst today, in fact we are already in the predicted times. People have forgotten God entirely.

 

[oldcelt]

Sorry I am not following.

I have argued with many atheist and they do actually sustain those points, that there is no objective morality, that good are wrong are just standards made by man, and that they do no really mean much.

About, “God couldnt get it right the first time” please explain further, i do not see it in the text I qouted.

That’s quite simple…despite supposedly holding all the cards, the Christian God created a fallen people in need of a New Covenant. In other words, the first covenant failed… Now, some very unsavory possibilities could be assigned for this, but then again, I do not find the OT to be particularly enlightening, so its flaws do not trouble me.

Morality is precisely that in my mind…a series of standards developed over time to make life more livable for as many as possible. They are subject to change, but the pace is generally slow…more of a slow evolution.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I totally disagree with you, as you can see.

But for those who do think it’s the end of the world ASAP and that Jesus will come down from the sky, etc…that would be a happy day, would it not?
If it’s all predicted and going as planned…no need to worry about a thing, I imagine.

Then again…it was supposed to happen about 2000 years ago and it didn’t.
So perhaps these predicted times are not so easy to spot?

.

yes, the funny thing is one can never know exactly what happens when will and surprise meet.

God bless

 

[lightbeamrider]

So, are you saying that people have to come up with a reason why stoning children to death is abhorrent behavior (Deuteronomy 21)?

Are you referencing Dt. 21:18? That refers to a stubborn and rebellious son. It is a stretch to assume we are talking about children. The elders, not the parents were the final authority and i see no explicit example from the Old in which this ever happens. Do you? It goes along with honor your mother and father. If a son does not do that in the home then he will not do it in society. Anarchy in the home brings about anarchy in society. It was a deterrent. Your assumptions are misleading.

 

[ajecphotos]

Why do Christians not obey the Old Testaments commands to kill homosexuals and disobedient children?
by Matt Slick

Critics of the Bible often cite Old Testament instances of slavery, violence against homosexuals, wiping out nations, etc., as evidence of a morally inadequate set of rules. They will also often ask why present-day Christians don’t follow these “barbaric” teachings today. They complain that Christians are inconsistent, and say that if we really follow the Bible then why don’t we advocate such things as killing both homosexuals (Lev. 20:13) and disobedient children (Deut. 21:18-21).

The reason we don’t is because the Old Covenantal system, that involved such harsh punishments, has been done away with. We are under a new covenant. Jesus said in Luke 22:20, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.”

This new covenant was prophecied in the Old Testament in Jer. 31:31, “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." It is referenced in 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:8, 9:15; and 12:24.

Of particular importance to our topic is Heb. 8:13 which says, “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” The Old Covenant with its harsh judicial judgments is no longer in effect because we are under a New Covenant.

Part of the reason the Old Testament covenantal system was so harsh is because first, the Old Testament law demonstrates the severity of righteousness and the requirement of perfection before a holy God. Galatians 3:24 says that the law is what points us to Christ. It does this by showing us that we are not able to keep the law and that the only way of obtaining righteousness before God is through the sacrifice of Jesus, who was God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).

Second, the Old Testament times were very difficult and there were many nations that warred against Israel. Also, the devil and his demonic horde was constantly working to destroy Israel in order to invalidate the prophecies of the coming Messiah, to therefore prevent the Messiah from being born and delivering his people. Therefore, God instituted laws, as difficult as they were, that were consistent with the culture of the times, that ensured the survival of the Jewish nation, that helped to maintain social structure, and also reflected the harshness of the law.

The New Testament covenantal system says that we are to “be at peace with one another,” (Mark 9:50) and “with all men,” (Rom. 12:18). Rom. 14:19 says, “pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.” After all, “God has called us to peace,” (1 Cor. 7:15).

However, this does not mean that we are to approve of such sins as homosexuality, adultery, lying, and stealing. We are to not participate in the sins of the world. Instead, we are to avoid them. We are not to be violent to anyone since the old theonomic, covenantal system has been done away with (Heb. 8:13). Instead, we are to be kind to them (2 Tim. 2:24-25) and show them love (1 Cor. 16:14; 2 Cor. 5:14). But the moral condemnation of immorality still stands – as is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-28.

So, the reason Christians are not obligated to stone homosexuals, disobedient children, and adulterers, is because we’re no longer underneath the Old Testament covenantal system. It has been fulfilled and done away with (Heb. 8:13).

What right do you have to judge?

In order for someone to raise a valid objection against the moral statutes of the Old Testament, he or she must provide a standard by which such judgments can be made. While people may not agree with the moral judgments of the Old Testament, not agreeing does not invalidate them or mean they are wrong; nor does simply saying “they were obviously barbaric rules” mean that they were. Likewise, saying that “society has evolved” is a meaningless statement. By what standard does the critic offer morally objective criteria by which he or she can judge another culture’s morals?

We have to ask what right does a person in a present-day culture have to judge any ancient culture which existed in a completely different economic, militaristic, judicial, and geographical configuration? Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and they don’t have to like what the Bible teaches, but not liking it has no bearing on whether or not it is good. So, those critics who insist that the Old Testament laws were wrong need to provide an objective standard (not their own opinions) by which they can make moral judgments.

Added by me: obviously people who try to refute the bible often do not belive in God, and so they do not belive in an objective morality, but in a subjective one. Somif for someone its right to kill, they say, fine, its their opinion. Thats how atheists are. Let us pray for them.

Great post. ta

 

[mikekle]

About, “God couldnt get it right the first time” please explain further, i do not see it in the text I qouted.

I saw your question and wanted to address it as I have had this discussion before, it is true, people say God does not make mistakes, but there are 2 separate bible verses that contradict what you stated here. Im not sure of the actual verses, but I could find them if needed.

one verse states God is pleased with creation of mankind, but another verse states God was not pleased by mans creation…so which is it?

 

[mikekle]

I totally disagree with you, as you can see.

But for those who do think it’s the end of the world ASAP and that Jesus will come down from the sky, etc…that would be a happy day, would it not?
If it’s all predicted and going as planned…no need to worry about a thing, I imagine.

Then again…it was supposed to happen about 2000 years ago and it didn’t.
So perhaps these predicted times are not so easy to spot?

.

If you look at all the ‘signs’ we are told to look for to indicate when God is at the door, it is very clear, nearly all of them have been met, I have posted a long list of them somewhere on here in the past, it is a big list and surprising to see how many have taken place or are taking place in modern times. I dont think its a coincidence either.

 

[ShynSup]

I saw your question and wanted to address it as I have had this discussion before, it is true, people say God does not make mistakes, but there are 2 separate bible verses that contradict what you stated here. Im not sure of the actual verses, but I could find them if needed.

one verse states God is pleased with creation of mankind, but another verse states God was not pleased by mans creation…so which is it?

Both, the creation got corrupted.

It was initally good, then God regreted creating humanity.

But you think: “If he is all knowing, how didnt he see it coming?”

Welll, that comes down to the question, Why did He create us?

And if you wanna go on you can also add, How did he create us?

How did He made us out of nothing?

As you can see these questions take us nowhere, its a matter of faith.