Experiences of Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism

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gloria97000

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I recently attended a Melkite parish for the first time and was surprised to discover the proportion of the congregants who were Traditional Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. I was raised Roman Catholic with a very reasonable, orthodox Novus Ordo Liturgy, and not often exposed to the TLM until older. My impressions had been that there was a continuum of experience like this:
TLM — Novus Ordo – Eastern Catholic ---- Eastern Orthodox
So in my mind, the TLM and Eastern Orthodox were on opposite ends of (admittedly) a faily narrow spectrum of theological expression. OK, they’re pretty different liturgical expressions, but in respect to all the religions of the world, I still think these cover a pretty narrow spectrum of belief.

I’m pretty familiar with the Maronite community, and have attended multiple Maronite parishes without a similar experience.

So - my question is – is it common to see Traditional Catholics (TLM Catholics) and Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Liturgies? Does the experience or extent vary among different Eastern Catholic Churches or with geography? I’m curious what any Catholic or Orthodox on the site would have to say.
 
It’s becoming less and less common at St. Nick’s… in part because a prior pastor was adamant and vehement about delatinization, and also took a strong stance with the SSPX crowd, and in part because the delatinized liturgy is FAR less appealing to many of them, and in part because there is a licit latin mass (albeit NOT Tridentine) at the local Roman cathedral parish once a month.

But many parishioners are Latins. Just not so many who truly fit the “TLM” crowd.

Oh, and it’s a Dominican Latin Mass that’s offered.
 
My Melkite parish has no TLMers but has a large portion of Eastern Orthodox members, some of whom are actually on the parish council and are some of the most supportive and active members of the community. From what I know this is fairly common in Melkite parishes, though I know nothing about TLMers attending as this is the first I’ve heard of it (I’ve seen it a lot in Ruthenian churches, though).

Peace and God bless!
 
Mel Gibson (What!), despite all he’s into, just visited a Maronite Bishops’ Council in St. Louis this past week (no joke, I clicked the video on a local St. Louis tv sight: cw11tv.com/news/kplr-mel-gibson-st-louis-042309,0,6227038.story). He’s a traditionalist, but seems attracted to Eastern rites.
I have a cousin who used to travel to Hollywood quite frequently as an entertainment reporter for a local station for entertainment news stories and upon introducing herself to Mel, he asked her about her name. She replied its Ukrainian and she’s Ukrainian Catholic. Mel apparently attended a number of Ukrainian Catholic masses out in California when he started his career out and, apparently, when he swung by my area would have a luncheon or two with our late bishop. Nobody really made much of it, but, hey, it’s a small world and I also never understood the traditionalist preference at times for Eastern-rite Catholicism. Is it because we have a separation between the congregation and the priest (an “Ikonostas”) and that the priest faces the Eucharist during the majority of the mass with his back to the congregation?
 
Of all people Mel Gibson just attended a St. Louis Maronite Bishops’ conference last week asking for prayers. I’d post the link but just read the rules of the road: no links.
A member of my family used to go on Hollywood press junkets for a local T.V. station to cover film debuts, etc. She met Mel and he, on hearing her name, inquired about her background. She responded Ukrainian and Ukrainian Catholic. He surprisingly answered that he’d attended a number of Ukrainian Catholic masses when starting out in California. He also used to go for brunch with our eparchy’s late bishop when he swung by my neck of the woods and was attracted to the rite.
Mel is a traditionalist (of what exact type I don’t know) but I think Latin traditionalists may be attracted to the Eastern Catholic Churches because the priest faces the Eucharist for most of the mass and is separated from the faithful by an Ikonostas (a barrier but artfully done up with icons and paintings). Could be wrong. This is only my 3rd post so I hope I haven’t broken any rules of the road yet.
 
You’ve misread the forum rules; for controversial items, a link is REQUIRED.

Mel Gibson is said to be SSPX or SSPV; I’ve seen nothing firm on which. Nor does it really matter.

The Draw of the Ruthenian church was the HEAVY latinization; Bishop Nicholas + Elko ordered the removal of Iconostasi so that the people could see the holy table!
 
gloria97000 said:
I recently attended a Melkite parish for the first time and was surprised to discover the proportion of the congregants who were Traditional Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. I was raised Roman Catholic with a very reasonable, orthodox Novus Ordo Liturgy, and not often exposed to the TLM until older. My impressions had been that there was a continuum of experience like this:
TLM — Novus Ordo – Eastern Catholic ---- Eastern Orthodox
So in my mind, the TLM and Eastern Orthodox were on opposite ends of (admittedly) a faily narrow spectrum of theological expression. OK, they’re pretty different liturgical expressions, but in respect to all the religions of the world, I still think these cover a pretty narrow spectrum of belief.

I’m pretty familiar with the Maronite community, and have attended multiple Maronite parishes without a similar experience.

So - my question is – is it common to see Traditional Catholics (TLM Catholics) and Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Liturgies? Does the experience or extent vary among different Eastern Catholic Churches or with geography? I’m curious what any Catholic or Orthodox on the site would have to say.
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I think that the problem is that you view things on a simple spectrum that is from right to left. Things aren’t that simple. There are ways in which the TLM is more similar to the Melkite liturgy and there are ways in which the NO are more similar. I am a Maronite and I love the Maronite Church. There are simply different approaches. There isn;t a spectrum which all traditions fit neatly on.

It seems that a lot of traditionalists view the eastern churches like they view the NO; as only half Catholic. Yo be a full Catholic you must be traditionalist Roman because that is where you will find the mass of Trent.
 
Many traditionalist Latins who have gone to Eastern Catholic parishes thinking they would find the last strongholds of 1950’s American Catholicism have been terribly disappointed, and even bitter.

Some of them have insisted on using Slavonic or even Ukrainian or anything but English so they could pretend they were listening to Latin.

Those who accept the Eastern Churches on their own terms find them amazing storehouses of spiritual treasure beyond their wildest dreams.
 
With the availability of the “Extraordinary Form” in many dioceses, in addition to such orders as the Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King, etc. many of the traditionalist Latins have moved back from the Eastern Catholic parishes to the TLM for regular Mass attendance.

The Bishop’s Conference last week was for all of the Eastern Catholic hierarchs in the US (known as the Eastern Catholic Associates). They typically meet in St. Louis because of its central location.

I agree with Jimmy - every spiritual pilgrimage is unique as every soul is unique. It is very difficult to draw trends from the movement of individuals between particular Churches.
 
My own experience in the UGCC is that in the last five years or so, the Latins who are present are now generally there because they genuinely want to be there. I know of several families who prefer our own triple sacraments of initiation (highly praised by the late Holy Father) when they have even the TLM baptism available. It is commendable for those who want to “breathe with both lungs” to experience the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Twenty and more years ago it was a very different situation. As a much younger diak/cantor, I remember being approached and asked why we didn’t have “low Mass”. I would politely explain why this is not part of our tradition. We had far more people who were there to go to the “Ukrainian Mass” because it was not the Novus Ordo, and largely for no other reason.

Our pastor at the time, a refugee from Communist oppression and a good vostochnik was less patient with these folks, having been imprisoned for attempting to practice the fuller tradition. I encourage anyone to visit our Church, but when there is opposition to the directives of our hierarchy, Rome, and the tireless work of our venerable hierarchs such as Metropolitan Andrey and Patriarch Josyp to restore the tradition of our Kyivan Church as received at the Union of Brest it can test one’s patience, especially when those people are not even of our own particular Church and tradition and claim to do so in the name of the ever-ambiguous “traditional Catholicism”. As I mentioned, this has nearly ceased.
 
Some of them have insisted on using Slavonic or even Ukrainian or anything but English so they could pretend they were listening to Latin.
Unfortunately the above quote appears to confirm what I've alluded to in another thread, regarding Anti-Latin sentiments among some in the East.
 
I haven’t figured out how to quote properly, but I was referring to the paragraph directly above my last post.
 
Seamus_L said:
Some of them have insisted on using Slavonic or even Ukrainian or anything but English so they could pretend they were listening to Latin.

Unfortunately the above quote appears to confirm what I’ve alluded to in another thread, regarding Anti-Latin sentiments among some in the East.
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How is that an anti-Latin sentiment? It is a statement of fact. Many Latins go to the east looking for their traditionalism and they are disappointed.
 
It implies Latin Catholics don’t understand Latin, and just want another language they don’t understand. That’s a pretty narrow minded conclusion. And what of the use of Church Slavonic ? With all the talk of restoring genuine Eastern traditions, that one seems to be ignored.
 
jimmy said:
How is that an anti-Latin sentiment? It is a statement of fact.
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No Jimmy. Your comment :
Many Latins go to the east looking for their traditionalism and they are disappointed.
Click to expand...
is a statement of fact. It lacks some quantification and documentation, but the proposition is a simple matter of fact.

But this:
Some of them have insisted on using Slavonic or even Ukrainian or anything but English so they could pretend they were listening to Latin.
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goes far beyond what you wrote, and includes a gratuitous insult. Hard to understand why this insult is included, but it is certainly taints the statement with an anti-Latin sentiment.
 
Seamus_L said:
It implies Latin Catholics don’t understand Latin, and just want another language they don’t understand. That’s a pretty narrow minded conclusion. And what of the use of Church Slavonic ? With all the talk of restoring genuine Eastern traditions, that one seems to be ignored.
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Slavonic isn’t the tradition. The tradition is to use the vernacular. So there is a return to tradition where there is a use of the vernacular.

Most Latin Catholics don’t understand Latin. The traditionalists often have an animosity to the vernacular. If you go to the traditionalist websites you will see their Latin only mentality. They might support the use of slavonic because it is a ‘liturgical language’. dixibehr is correct in his assertion.
 
jimmy said:
… They might support the use of slavonic because it is a ‘liturgical language’. dixibehr is correct in his assertion.
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This is not, however, what dixibehr asserted. If you are insensitive to the stark difference between what you have written and what dixibehr did, then you will never see that there is some merit in Seamus L’s comments. Too bad.
 
Wow- What happened to the original question? Really, any language is ok with me, so long as I’m proclaiming and hearing proclaimed the Word of God in the wide boundaries of Catholicism. The poetic expressions of theology and the slightly different perspective on spirituality of the Maronite Church (as compared to the Roman) is what I find appealing. The expression of Community is also very different, and very enjoyable.

I hope I didn’t give the impression that I was implying one Church or Community was more conservative or liberal by expressing a right - to - left (or left-to-right) spectrum. That was not at all my intent. I just write using straight lines:D.

The intention of my original post was to attempt to clarify the presence of various members of a congregation. My purpose is to try to understand further the complex relationship between Orthodox, Catholic, and Traditionalist Catholic on a practical level, on the level of who chooses to worship where, and who chooses to worship together. I can find books on theology, and I can make presumptions or assumptions all night long, but I can’t practically visit hundreds of parishes and interview their members:).
 
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