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davidv
Guest
If you understand it so well, why would make the following erroneous statement:
There nothing contradictory between the Church teachings on reconciliation with God and the information provided in Scripture.
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kdbueno
Guest
Justification approves that you are endowed with intelligence.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
I think the best question that brings this out is, “Why should God allow you into Heaven when you die?” If your answer is something along the lines of “because Jesus did X for me,” then you admit salvation is a business transaction in the Protestant view. You’re saved and off to heaven not based on a relationship, but on work Jesus already did in the past for you, work that you had nothing to do with. This is why relationship becomes an afterthought in the Protestant view of salvation.
There are not numerous passages that say faith is the only requirement. There are many passages that say faith apart from circumcision, but that’s not the same as faith apart from everything else.
The problem with this paragraph is that you have to first define what “Justification” even is, and until the definition is clearly laid out, there will be the problem of using the same terminology but speaking past each other. Furthermore, when something is spoken of as “dead,” that is not the same as saying that something never really existed at all.
This is precisely why in the Protestant mind salvation is a cold, impersonal business transaction, because it’s based on things entirely outside of you and what you do. In this example you gave, you are upset that a person who stops believing in Jesus will lose their salvation. That’s kind of silly. So faith justifies, even if that person stops believing later on? You can say “the person never really had faith,” but such a thing is nowhere taught in the Bible. In the example you gave, you are suggesting a Christian doesn’t have to believe in any specific doctrines to be saved, they can ignore/reject anything they want as long as the believe in Jesus? That sounds dangerous to me. The Catholic position is simply this: if a person doesn’t agree with what has been divinely revealed by God, then that person does not have “faith” but rather is trusting in their own private opinions to save them.
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susanlo
Guest
What role does penance play?
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susanlo
Guest
Protestantism and Catholicism have slightly different ideas and very different terminology and descriptions.
In Protestantism, justification is the act of being made righteous in the eyes of God. The sins that separate us from God are taken away because of Jesus’ sacrifice. This is achieved only by putting your faith and trust completely in Jesus. This happens immediately and is not a process. Many Protestants believe that if one turns their back on God in willful disobedience, the justification status could be lost. If the person later comes back in repentance and demonstrates complete faith and trust in Jesus, the status is immediately restored. (So this could be more than one-time, but it is still an immediate status and not an ongoing process).
Sanctification is a process of being made holy. This process is a gradual process that occurs continually throughout one’s lifetime and is the cause of good works. A healthy relationship with God causes sanctification and good works. Sanctification is the result of justification and not the cause of justification. A tree that is well watered and fertilized will produce good fruit, but good fruit does not cause a tree to become strong.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
This is correct, but it shows there are conflicting views of “Justification” even within Protestantism. For example, if salvation can be lost by “willful disobedience,” then your actions certainly do play a role in whether you make it into Heaven, not just faith. And if Jesus took away your sins, and God accounts you as righteous by looking at Jesus instead of you, then how can you ever fall from your righteous standing before God? If Jesus’ righteousness “covers you” so that God sees Jesus’ righteousness instead of your sinfulness, then God can never see you as unrighteous. This is what I meant by saying in Protestantism, justification is a business transaction between God and Jesus, not about our personal relationship with the Trinity.
I agree that this is the Protestant view of sanctification, but it is isn’t the Biblical view. At best, it’s partly true. The Bible talks about sanctification as complete/perfect the moment we converted, and the receiving of a new heart does not follow justification, but comes at the same moment, as part of it. Your description is inconsistent in equating justification with “a healthy relationship with God” because in the Protestant view justification is not about relationship with God, but rather something that comes after justification.
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davidv
Guest
Atonement of the temporal consequences of sin.
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susanlo
Guest
We are justified on the basis of faith and not actions or works. Some protestants would teach that if someone turns away from their faith in significant ways, then it is possible for salvation to be lost. Justification is about the state of the heart and the maintained relationship with Jesus as opposed to performing specific works to merit justification. Other Christians believe that if someone seems to become a Christian, but later denies Jesus and disobeys in major ways, that they didn’t lose their justification, but that they were never saved or justified to start with. I honestly don’t think it is necessary to completely understand the difference. If we are pursuing a relationship with Jesus and are obedient to him, then we are doing our role. Whether someone who is clearly living a sinful lifestyle used to be saved - or were never really saved - doesn’t seem completely necessary to understand.
I didn’t mean to say that justification is a “healthy relationship with God.” I mean that justification removes the sin that separates us from God. Then we can pursue a relationship with God because we have now been justified. Sanctification begins immediately at this time, but growth in our Christian faith and character is the process of sanctification that should continue to develop in our life as we actively pursue God. This process should never end.
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susanlo
Guest
So the forgiveness can occur without an act of penance. Penance will remove the punishment on earth and in the after-life. Is this correct?
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fhansen
Guest
Certainly the process should never end. In Catholicism this process is a part of our justification simply because justice is considered something that can *grow *in us, and is *expected *to grow in us. The Parable of the Talents explains this well, as the wicked and lazy servant refuses to “invest” that which he’d been given, with loss of the kingdom at stake.
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Michael19682
Guest
The Parable of the Good Samaritan indicates that what you say is true.
The misunderstanding appears to be in that some might think that the Good Samaritan needs to be later reimbursed for his kindness. Giving love back to God is not necessary for His love, which is always directed to us. The Good Samaritan clearly says to the inn keeper that he will pay more if the cost exceeds his deposit. He does not say any price at all; perhaps because the analogy to real money limits this reality, or perhaps because the reference to the highest price, His very life, though it will pay the ransom and win our salvation, obviously will not stop the devil from setting traps and continuing to try and ruin people – something which, if specified, would for the good Samaritan be to shed suspicion on the innkeeper in a possibly uncharitable way; for the robbers are the devil; and not the innkeeper.
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davidv
Guest
I believe human forgiveness, as an example of God’s forgiveness, can occur without penance. For example, I can forgive you for breaking my window without expecting you to fix it.
Is it correct that penance removes punishment? In most cases, I would think not, as the penance may not be sufficient. The penance reduces, rather than, removes, temporal punishment.
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PluniaZ
Guest
Thomas Aquinas offers his pre-Reformation views on justification:
newadvent.org/summa/2113.htm
Highlights (not in any particular order):
"justice is so-called inasmuch as it implies a certain rectitude of order in the interior disposition of a man, in so far as what is highest in man is subject to God, and the inferior powers of the soul are subject to the superior, i.e. to the reason; and this disposition the Philosopher calls “justice metaphorically speaking”
“There are four things which are accounted to be necessary for the justification of the ungodly, viz. the infusion of grace, the movement of the free-will towards God by faith, the movement of the free-will towards sin, and the remission of sins. … in their natural order the first is the infusion of grace; the second, the free-will’s movement towards God; the third, the free-will’s movement towards sin; the fourth, the remission of sin.”
“The movement of faith is not perfect unless it is quickened by charity; hence in the justification of the ungodly, a movement of charity is infused together with the movement of faith.”
“the justification of the ungodly by God takes place in an instant.”
“the gift of grace that justifies the ungodly is greater than the gift of glory that beatifies the just, for the gift of grace exceeds the worthiness of the ungodly, who are worthy of punishment, more than the gift of glory exceeds the worthiness of the just, who by the fact of their justification are worthy of glory”
newadvent.org/summa/2113.htm
Highlights (not in any particular order):
"justice is so-called inasmuch as it implies a certain rectitude of order in the interior disposition of a man, in so far as what is highest in man is subject to God, and the inferior powers of the soul are subject to the superior, i.e. to the reason; and this disposition the Philosopher calls “justice metaphorically speaking”
“There are four things which are accounted to be necessary for the justification of the ungodly, viz. the infusion of grace, the movement of the free-will towards God by faith, the movement of the free-will towards sin, and the remission of sins. … in their natural order the first is the infusion of grace; the second, the free-will’s movement towards God; the third, the free-will’s movement towards sin; the fourth, the remission of sin.”
“The movement of faith is not perfect unless it is quickened by charity; hence in the justification of the ungodly, a movement of charity is infused together with the movement of faith.”
“the justification of the ungodly by God takes place in an instant.”
“the gift of grace that justifies the ungodly is greater than the gift of glory that beatifies the just, for the gift of grace exceeds the worthiness of the ungodly, who are worthy of punishment, more than the gift of glory exceeds the worthiness of the just, who by the fact of their justification are worthy of glory”
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The Good Samaritan is ultimately Jesus, which means that the Inn is the Church, and that the Inn Keeper is Peter. So we are in good hands. :extrahappy:
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jinc1019
Guest
Thanks for this. Of course, the Reformers argued many of the RC theologians of the past relying on the Latin translation, rather than the Greek, improperly interpreted “justification.”
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jinc1019
Guest
All interesting stuff, thanks!
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PluniaZ
Guest
They would be wrong. Seeing as the Greek church had the same understanding of justification.
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kdbueno
Guest
Justification approves that God’s morality is correct. Justification expounds the reality that you are conferred with love. It explains the morality of the existing dogmatic intelligence of God.
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