Explain Matthew 18:20

[Third_Day]

In Matthew 18: 20 Christ says " For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

Was this statement by Christ directed to the apostles or to all men? Protestants often use this verse to say that Christ is in their midst every time they meet. However, in context it seems to apply only to the apostles, that is, whenever they meet, such as in a Council, He will be with them.

My question is this. If two or three christians get together, in His name, and decide that they want to start their own “church”, is Christ really in their midst?

If a protestant pastor is preaching to his congregation and he begins to preach that Christ did not establish a visible Church, that the Eucharist is symbolic, that there is no such thing as a new covenant priesthood, is Christ really in their midst?

 

[Eileen_T]

This is from Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition:

There am I in the midst of them. This is understood of such assemblies only, as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the Church of Christ. (St. Cyprian, de Unitate Ecclesiæ.) (Challoner) — St. Chrysostom, Theophylactus, and Euthymius explain the words in his name, thus, assembled by authority received from Christ, in the manner appointed by him, or for his sake, and seeking nothing by his glory. Hence we may see what confidence we may place in an œcumenical council lawfully assembled. (Tirinus) (St. Gregory, lib. vii. Regist. Epist. cxii.)

Does this help?

 

[Third_Day]

I have told an ex-catholic, that wants to start his own church, that he has no authority to do that. He has used Matthew 18:20 to explain that Christ is in his midst when he meets with those that want him to start his own "church’
I feel I am on solid ground to say that Matthew 18:20 refers to the apostles but I have heard Catholic apologists on Catholic Radio say to protestants that Christ is in their midst when they gather in the name of Christ.
I have heard Father Pacwa praise protestant preachers for their great sermons and say God is in their midst. But I wonder, does the Holy Spirit leave when the pastor begins to preach error?
I hope to get a lot of (name removed by moderator)ut on this forum, thanks.

 

[Eileen_T]

I guess I believe that when two or three Christians (or more) gather to pray, God is in their midst.

Jesus established His Church on Peter and the Apostles. There has to be Apostolic Succession and Authority. As far as wanting to start a church of one’s own, that would mean the person did not believe the Church that Jesus established is still around today.

This could only be the case if the gates of hell managed to prevail against it, which would mean Jesus got it wrong. That would mean He wasn’t God, as He claimed to be and, as Paul said, our faith would be in vain.

 

[Third_Day]

I guess I believe that when two or three Christians (or more) gather to pray, God is in their midst.

.

So does Matt 18:20 mean God is in their midst when they start to pray but leaves when they start talking about starting their own church?

Is Matt 18:20 directed only to the apostles or is Christ in the midst when a pastor begins to preach error to his congregation?

Or how about when a bible study group asks the Holy Spirit to guide them and then they start interpreting scripture in error. SInce they are gathered in His name is Christ truly in their midst or not?

 

[mardukm]

So does Matt 18:20 mean God is in their midst when they start to pray but leaves when they start talking about starting their own church?

Is Matt 18:20 directed only to the apostles or is Christ in the midst when a pastor begins to preach error to his congregation?

Or how about when a bible study group asks the Holy Spirit to guide them and then they start interpreting scripture in error. SInce they are gathered in His name is Christ truly in their midst or not?

Just because they are in error does not mean that God does not love them, or provide for them through their prayers. In fact, He will remain in their midst, IMHO, as a stirring in the soul to call them back to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Blessings

 

[Third_Day]

Just because they are in error does not mean that God does not love them, or provide for them through their prayers. In fact, He will remain in their midst, IMHO, as a stirring in the soul to call them back to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Blessings

I agree that God will never abandon us and even though they are in error God loves them and desires that they come home to His Catholic Church.
But what about Matt 18:20? Isn’t Christ saying this only to the apostles? That He will be in their midst when two or more of THEM gather.?

I find it hard to believe that Christ would be in the midst of a sermon that denies the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[Mark77]

**i believe God speaks to us in incremental portions, as we are ready to receive Him.
**
Even though some non-Catholics may preach error, the partial Truth they teach will lead their flock to Jesus and eventually to the fullness of the Truth, even if that is only at the moment of death!

**Thank God that He is infinitely Merciful, or we would all fall short of His Perfect Love!!!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!**

mark

 

[puppypatrol]

In reading this passage in context, Christ is speaking to the apostles specifically in the beginning of the chapter. When they meet as the leadership of the church, Christ is in the midst of them. He is specifically speaking to them about their responsibilities as the leaders of His Church, binding and loosing on earthe

Verse 20 refers to prayer requests. You have to include verse 19 ==

Matthew 18:19
19 Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

In other words, the more people that pray for an intention, the better.

No where does it talk about if you want to start your own church and have another person who is meeting with you, Christ is there. Christ set up one church and one church only.

 

[chaunceygardner]

First, Jesus does not specifically say that it is only the Twelve who must be gathered together, although that could be implied since He appears to be addressing them. One must understand that there could be others with Jesus at any particular time in addition to the Twelve, so He could have been addressing more than just the 12 apoostles. In any case, it seems as if Jesus is not limiting who can gather in His name to just the Twelve.

I think the point about two or three is important. Those gathered together must be of one mind, and they must be gathered in His name. I think that implies more than just saying “we are here in this place in the name of Jesus.” Anyone can say that. There has to be an inner truthfulness about what they are saying, they have to be spiritually honest and have an understanding of Jesus, and a spiritual connection with Him. I think the meaning would be clearer if it said “two or three truly gathered in my name.”

To say a few Christians (or people of any faith) can gather together and declare they are the one and only church would not have any affect, for the reason that God must first acknowledge and agree with what the group is “praying for” in Jesus’ name. God will not just automatically grant any prayer, no matter who prays it. It would be the same as if a few of us got together and prayed that we would win $100 million in the lottery. I don’t think God would consider that a valid or reasonable prayer, nor an acceptable reason to call on Jesus.

The other interesting thing about this passage is that it doesn’t seem to “fit” real well with the verses immediately preceding it. Verse 19 duplicates Matt. 16:18 where Jesus is addressing only Peter. Now he is repeating the exact same thing to all the disciples . And these are the only two places in any of the Gospels where Jesus mentions anything about a “church”. This could indicate that Matt. 18:18-20 and possibly some verses in Matt. 16 were altered or added to the Gospel at a later time. Perhaps someone who is versed in biblical scholarship could enlighten us about that.

 

[TristanCross]

A church is just that: two or three people (or more) who gather in Christ’s name.

 

[SonofMonica]

A church is just that: two or three people (or more) who gather in Christ’s name.

It’s a shame you apparently have to make up things about Catholics telling you that you’re going to hell in order to get attention. I’ve never seen one Catholic here telling anyone they’re going to hell. In fact every Catholic I’ve seen on this board takes the position that the Catholic Church cannot judge that anyone is going to hell. We will pay attention to you if you post honest and insightful posts or ask meaningful questions. If you’re not here to do that, why are you here?

 

[TristanCross]

It’s a shame you apparently have to make up things about Catholics telling you that you’re going to hell in order to get attention. I’ve never seen one Catholic here telling anyone they’re going to hell. In fact every Catholic I’ve seen on this board takes the position that the Catholic Church cannot judge that anyone is going to hell. We will pay attention to you if you post honest and insightful posts or ask meaningful questions. If you’re not here to do that, why are you here?

I didn’t make anything up. I’ve been told many times that I’m headed for hell unless I become Catholic and receive sacraments…I must be talking to different Catholics…

 

[Third_Day]

A church is just that: two or three people (or more) who gather in Christ’s name.

Using the bible, it seems that the TRUE Chuch must be apostolic. It must have been built upon the foundation of the apostles. A "church"started last week or 500 years ago would have no ties to the apostles. The Church spoken of by Christ must be able to claim true unbroken apostolic succession for 2,000 years.
Again, using scripture, this succession was handed down when the apostles layed their hands upon other men appointing them bishops.
Only the Roman Catholic Church fits this description.

 

[Philthy]

In Matthew 18: 20 Christ says " For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

Was this statement by Christ directed to the apostles or to all men? Protestants often use this verse to say that Christ is in their midst every time they meet. However, in context it seems to apply only to the apostles, that is, whenever they meet, such as in a Council, He will be with them.

My question is this. If two or three christians get together, in His name, and decide that they want to start their own “church”, is Christ really in their midst?

If a protestant pastor is preaching to his congregation and he begins to preach that Christ did not establish a visible Church, that the Eucharist is symbolic, that there is no such thing as a new covenant priesthood, is Christ really in their midst?

On its own it is an entirely vague statement which, taken at face value, is relatively meaningless. God is everywhere, regardless of whether we gather in his “name” or not, since one of God’s attributes is omnipresence. Christ is God so he is “everywhere” and “through Him all things were made” - all of creation exists through Christ. So when devil worshipers - who are part of creation - gather together He is there. He is also “present” on Saturn and the outer reaches of the universe.
So what did Christ mean by it? It is not enough to say that He was reaffirming his Divinity by attributing to himself omnipresence because He places a condition upon his being “with” them - that condition being “2 or 3” gathering. It is much more logical IMHO that *in a manner particular to the Apostles *(and perhaps their successors) he was attempting to convey a unique way that just as He was in their presence at that moment - leading and guiding them uniquely - He would always be there - uniquely - with them when they gathered as His Apostles…

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

I didn’t make anything up. I’ve been told many times that I’m headed for hell unless I become Catholic and receive sacraments…I must be talking to different Catholics…

Different thread, but in the theological sense the term “become Catholic” means to be united to Christ, a member of his Body, saved, etc. So when someone says that you’re “headed for Hell unless you become Catholic…” it would be analogous to you saying to someone, “you’re headed for Hell unless you’re saved, born again, etc…” Just like there are different senses in Scripture for certain terms there are different senses for the term “Catholic”. It is very easy to get lost and confused when you attempt to “figure it out” without some one with the authority to explain it - just like Scripture.

 

[Philthy]

A church is just that: two or three people (or more) who gather in Christ’s name.

Extrabiblical speculation (Scripture says no such thing) from a non-authoritative source.
No offense intended - honestly. In other words, you kinda made this definition up, right?

 

[TristanCross]

Using the bible, it seems that the TRUE Chuch must be apostolic. It must have been built upon the foundation of the apostles. A "church"started last week or 500 years ago would have no ties to the apostles. The Church spoken of by Christ must be able to claim true unbroken apostolic succession for 2,000 years.
Again, using scripture, this succession was handed down when the apostles layed their hands upon other men appointing them bishops.
Only the Roman Catholic Church fits this description.

The gnostics were able to trace to the apostles…so why should I trust the Catholic Church? How do I know it’s not just another heretic movement from the early church?

 

[TristanCross]

Extrabiblical speculation (Scripture says no such thing) from a non-authoritative source.
No offense intended - honestly. In other words, you kinda made this definition up, right?

Not at all. What do you think it is? An organization?..

Acts 2:47 KJV
(47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The Greek for “church” is ἐκκλησία (ekklēsia; ek-klay-see’-ah) which means “a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.” -From Strongs

The Catholic Church is a group of believers gathered in Christ’s name. Therefore, it is a church. If my friends and I gather in Christ’s name, we are “at” church. A Lutheran church is a group of believers gathered in Christ’s name. They are a church. The Christian Church consists of all Christians. This is the greatest body of Christians: The Body of Christ. It contains all Christ’s people.

Hope that clarifies. God bless you.

 

[NHInsider]

I think the OP opened two threads, because I don’t think the two questions are asking the same thing:

1. Is the promise “where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them” meant only for the apostles and their successors, or is it for any subset of believers?

Since Jesus specifically says “them” rather than “you” I think this is for everyone. (As compared with two verses earlier, where He says “you” wrt binding and loosing sins.)

1. Does this mean that the Lord is present when some heretical sect sets up a new church in His Name?

Yes and no - I think He will hear their prayers (which is the context of the verse) and may even grant their petitions to the extent that they conform to His will, but obviously they will not have the benefits of His Sacramental Presence, which sources of grace He entrusted to the Apostles.