Explain the Immaculate Conception

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BornAgainRN

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Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Code:
The Holy Spirit given to us as Sanctifier, and Whom Jesus promised would lead us into the complete Truth,has dwelt in Mary above all His other creatures. St. Maximilian Kolbe, gifted with many insights into the beauty of God's work in Mary, wrote:

This entire article, written originally in Latin by Fr. Maximilian and published in the first issue of his international Latin quarterly for priests MILES IMMACULATAE January 1938,
can be read HERE
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
 
Really? I’ll have to disagree based on the Word of God and the teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
It is quite biblical but as you said nothing is necessary for God, it just makes sense in order for us to grasp things. Without the death of Jesus on the cross it would have been impossible for her to be born without sin, God transcends time (kronos).
 
Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47).
That doesn’t necessarily mean she sinned, it means she has a Savior. That’s what the text says.
And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).
The Colossians passage doesn’t reference the Law, but either way—the Galatians passage says Jesus came to rescue those under the law. If we run with the interpretation of that passage you’ve offered, there is no problem, because we already established that Catholic teaching agrees Mary needed a Savior.
 
Yes Mary needed Jesus and He is Her Saviour. But His merits were applied at Her Immaculate Conception. Jesus could apply his merits and desires as and when he pleased. She at the Cross knew that it was not only for sinners it was also the price for Her Immaculate Conception.

He showed His glory on the moutain before the His Sacrifice on the Cross. He gave Himself at the Last Supper in anticipation of His sufferings of the Cross. Christ can apply His merits whenever He wished.
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
According to Scripture, the concept of Born Again Christianity is neither Biblical nor necessary. :cool:
 
According to Scripture, the concept of Born Again Christianity is neither Biblical nor necessary. :cool:
👍
Not to derail the thread, perhaps Michael Francis could open a new one.

First of all, the dramatic life-changing “Born Again” experiences reported by many is subjective – they vary in degree from person to person.

Secondly, these groups then take what is subjective and try to make it normative. In other words, they take these very personal encounters and*** insist that everyone must have a similar experience***.

Lastly, these groups “re-Baptize” when they recruit ex-Catholics. This is what makes them of particular concern: they teach that the legitimate, licit, formal Baptism received by Catholics as infants into Jesus Christ is of no consequence, and must be replaced by a “Believer’s Baptism” in order for one to be able to say one is Baptized.

Catholic Baptism, on the other hand, is objective – as with all of the Sacraments, it is an act of God Himself. So whether one is an infant or an adult, one can be sure that if the right form and matter were used, one is Baptized into Jesus Christ, and has every right to the name of Christian.
One can reasonably have the assurance of hope that if one obeys the commandments, loving God and loving neighbor and confessing/repenting of all mortal sin, one will be saved by Jesus Christ from judgment and hell.
It’s possible for Catholics to have the dramatic “experience” attested by many non-Catholics. But the “experience” is not equated with salvation. 2000 years of Church history is silent on that, until the last two centuries.
But the perception of non-Catholics is that these folks are “saved” by virtue of their experience, and in spite of the Church rather than through Her.
 
MariaChristi;9369111:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Code:
The Holy Spirit given to us as Sanctifier, and Whom Jesus promised would lead us into the complete Truth,has dwelt in Mary above all His other creatures. St. Maximilian Kolbe, gifted with many insights into the beauty of God's work in Mary, wrote:

This entire article, written originally in Latin by Fr. Maximilian and published in the first issue of his international Latin quarterly for priests MILES IMMACULATAE January 1938,
can be read HERE
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
Yes, Mary needed a Savior, and she had one: Jesus. But remember that God is outside time (2 Peter 3:8: “But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”). Jesus existed long before He was born of Mary (John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made”). He was her Savior; He simply redeemed her earlier than everyone else.

Your citation to Galatians 4:4-5 is incorrect; that passage tells us that Jesus was “made under the law.” It doesn’t address Mary other than to tell us that Jesus was born of her. As for Colossians 1:13-14, that simply addresses Jesus’ redemption of us; it doesn’t say anything about Mary needing a redeemer.

Scripture does, however, tell us that Mary was “full of grace,” and that the Lord was with her (Luke 1:28). That description (some Bibles, in order to avoid Catholic teachings, mistranslate it as “highly favored one”) is Kecharitomene in the Greek, the perfect passive participle of the infinitive charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” The perfect passive participle in Greek is a part of speech meaning that it (the endowment with grace) had already happened in the past but continued into the present – in other words, “Hail, person who has been filled with grace.”

Note: this does not show any special merit on Mary’s part. Kecharitomene doesn’t mean “One who is full of grace to give;” it means “One who has been given [is full of] grace.”

Mary was saved by God because of her Savior, Jesus; but He was given a sin-free vessel to be borne in. Just as God commanded that the bread of life manna was carried in a golden pot in the Ark of the Covenant (Hebrews 9:4; Exodus 16:33-34), the Bread of Life Jesus was carried in a purified ark, Mary. Remember that anyone carrying the Ark of the Covenant was to be sanctified (1 Chronicles 15:14); how much more must Mary, the mother of Jesus, be made full of grace to carry Him?
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’
According to Sacred Scripture (Luke 1:28), Mary received a grace from God some indefinite time prior to angel Gabriel’s visit, which she then continued to enjoy, but it does not say exactly what that grace was nor does it say exactly when that grace was received. Catholics have simply defined some of the otherwise unknown particulars of that grace to be her immaculate conception.
Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47).
God is called Savior for many reasons in Sacred Scripture, including salvation from the effects of sin, but since there is no explicit mention of sin in Mary’s canticle in Luke 1:46-55, there is not reason to assume that salvation from sin is meant here. Instead, she explicitly calls God her Savior because, speaking prophetically of the future Messianic reign of her newly conceived son as if it has already taken place, He “has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away. He has helped his servant Israel.”
And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).
In Galatians 4:4, Jesus Christ is the principle subject of the phrase “born under the Law,” which refers to His circumcision, not Mary. (Luke 2:21-22) If all born under the Law need forgiveness of sins, then Jesus himself needed forgiveness of sins but Jesus was sinless. Therefore, we know that there was at least one exception to this general rule for those born under the Law. Catholics simply say that, because of the grace she received at her conception in prevision of the merits of Jesus Christ, Mary was made a second exception to this general rule for those born under the Law.
If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins?
True. Mary’s immaculate conception was not absolutely necessary but it was fitting, just as it was not absolutely necessary that the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments be carried about in a new wooden box covered inside and out with the purest gold but it was fitting.
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
Hey, these passages do not disprove the Immaculate Conception. As many above have pointed out, Mary DID need a savior. An analogy may help: one person falls into a pit of mud and is “saved” by being brought out of the mud and cleansed off. Another person is prevented from falling into the mud at all, but is still “saved.” Now, the former example represents the average Christian; the latter, Christ’s mother.

I’m not sure what you mean, exactly, here:
If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
The point of the Immaculate Conception–the preserving Mary free from the stain of original sin and all actual sin–is that it is precisely fitting. You are correct in that it is not strictly necessary; God could have been born from a woman stained with sin. Had this been the case, though, Christ would not have made his victory over sin as profund. The Devil would have had a say in the matter: Christ would have gotten his flesh from corrupted sinful human nature! It was fitting that Christ as the New Adam had his mother be the New Eve. Just as the original Adam and Eve were made without sin, so the New Adam and New Eve are. The former lost our salvation; the latter brought it about.

The early Church certainly thought of Mary in this way. The New Eve motif is found in Irenaeus’ writings, for example:

“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree *. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (*Against Heresies *5:19:1).

Note that this comes from A.D. 189.*
 
I think we have explained the Immaculate Conception.

The understanding comes from exactly the same source which gave us Holy Scripture: The One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Because you know, the very same “Holy Scripture” was not handed (in red plether binding, gold ‘leaf’, and 'words of Christ in red by Jesus to the apostles with “Go out and distribute this to the nations”.

It took 350 years for the Christian Catholic Church to be able, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to define which of the **dozens of texts which had been used throughout the previous 350 years and claimed as inerrant, authentic teaching of Christ ** really WAS that same inerrant, God-breathed, authentic teaching of Christ.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who come breathing fire with **“EXPLAIN THIS TEACHING OF YOUR (wrong) CATHOLIC CHURCH ACCORDING TO THE ONLY AUTHORITY IN THE UNIVERSE WHICH IS MY BIBLE AS I UNDERSTAND IT, NYAH” **are using the Bible only because the Catholic Church was around to undertake the massive task through the Spirit to establish the canon of the Bible.

It’s like, "Oh yeah, the Bible was defined by the authority of the Catholic Church, so the Church had authority **when it brought forth the Bible canon, and it had authority to pronounce on inerrant teachings on things like the Trinity *** . . .**but it just CAN"T have authority on anything else. **

Nobody else gets the massive ‘logic fail’ here?

*unless you’re a Unitarian, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, et al
 
“Considered in this light, the mystery of the Immaculate Conception shows us the great victory of the Cross over sin and over the devil… Christ’s blood redeemed Mary in the most complete and radical manner possible. Through this mystery, she is the first to be redeemed in the very strict sense of primacy in the order of redemption. In Mary, everything that could be redeemed was redeemed immediately and from the beginning, in order to be handed over to the love of God. Jesus spared nothing for this wonderful redemption. It was for her that He suffered the most. He could not have given her more or suffered more for her. She is really the Good Shepherd’s first fruit and first conquest.”
(The Mysteries of Mary, Fr. Marie-Dominique Philippe, O.P. Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur)

You also have to understand Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. How much care was taken into building the Ark of the Old Testament, how much more God did in creating Mary, the living New Ark of the New Covenant!
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’
According to the Sacred Scriptures, Mary was indeed spared from sin through God’s divine intervention. Please refer to Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28 for evidence.
Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47).
This is faulty logic. Mary “needing a Savior” does not rule out the possibility of her Immaculate Conception.

First. you seem to be implying that Jesus was created when God chose Mary to carry Him and give birth to Him. Jesus, however, is perfectly God. Therefore, He has existed for all eternity. Further, God is outside of time.

Second, consider the following analogy: suppose a man is walking along a path and ends up falling into a pit full of mud, twigs, leaves, etc. Sometime later, someone comes along a helps get the man out of the pit. By all rights, this man has been “saved” from being stuck in the pit and being covered in mud. Now, suppose that a woman is walking along the same path. She too is about to tumble down into this mud-filled pit. However, before this can happen, someone who is also walking along the path sees her falling and rushes over to pull her away from the pit. The woman has also been “saved” from the pit, but the manner in which she was saved was even better than the man who was previously in the pit.

This is an excellent illustration of how Mary’s Immaculate Conception happened, as well as an illustration to show why the “Mary needed a Savior, therefore she was a sinner” logic falls short of being a good argument.
And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14).
Umm… I hate to break this to you, but the grammatical subject in Galatians 4:4-5 is Jesus Christ, not Mary. The “born under the Law” you are talking about is referring to our Lord and Savior. To be specific, that phrase is talking about Jesus’ circumcision. Galatians 4:4-5 is in no way talking about Mary.

If Mary was conceived without sin (and she was), then she was indeed saved at the very moment of her conception. Further, Catholics already agree that Mary too needed a Savior. Thus, your misinterpreted text-proofs are not a problem for us.
If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins?
First, no Catholic will say that the Immaculate Conception was necessary. It was, however, very fitting.

God certainly could have spared His Son from inheriting the sinful nature from His human mother, but He instead chose to spare Mary from the effects of sin so that she could properly carry God within her. After all, Scripture makes it blatantly clear that God does not tolerate sin.
The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
Evidence for the Immaculate Conception, or at least Mary being sinless:

Genesis 3:15~ This verse explicitly states that the woman and her seed shall be at enmity with the Devil. The seed is obviously and reference to Jesus Christ. Therefore, the “enmity” mentioned must be a reference to sin; Jesus, beside the fact that He is God, is like us in all ways except sin because He is perfectly human. I honestly don’t see how one can be at enmity with the devil if he or she is giving into the various temptations of sin. 🤷

Since the verse also says that the mother of the seed shall also be at enmity with the Devil, this must mean that the mother is like us in all ways except sin. This mother of the seed has to be Mary, as she’s the only one who fits the bill.

Luke 1:28~ The important phrase here is “full of grace.” In the original Greek, the phrase is rendered as kecharitomene. This word is a perfect passive participle of the Greek word charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Kecharitomene is in the perfect tense, and that means that Mary was in this “full of grace” state at some point in her past, and this state continues well on into the present and the future. This is a pretty clear implication that Mary was spared from the effects of sin. The Catholic Church has just defined this being spared from sin as happening at her conception.

Logical support: Scripture makes it blatantly clear that God does not tolerate sin. Therefore, there is no logical reason as to why God would allow His only begotten Son to be conceived, carried, and birthed by a sinful woman.

God doesn’t tolerate sin, and yet He was inside something completely sinful for nine months? That’s a contradiction if I ever saw one. Further, if Mary had been a sinner, then Jesus would have inherited this because He inherited in His human nature from His mother.

Further, the original Adam and Eve were created without sin. Therefore, it’s logicall plausible that the New Adam, Jesus Christ, and the New Eve, Mary, were also created without sin. Similarly, since the original Adam and Eve eventually fell into sin, then the New Adam and Eve had to be spared from falling into sin.
 
From the Greek in the New Testament.
The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
 
Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
Exactly. What’s so hard to understand?
 
According to Holy Scripture, Mary was not ‘Immaculately Conceived.’ Mary declares she needed a Savior WHILE she was pregnant with Jesus (Luke 1:46-47). And she was not saved prior to her conception, because Paul tells us that since Mary was born under the Law, she needed a Redeemer for the forgiveness of sins (Galatians 4:4-5; Colossians 1:13-14). If God has the ability to protect Mary from the sins of her parents, why couldn’t God have the ability to protect Himself from Mary’s sins? The concept of the ‘Immaculate Conception’ of Mary is neither Biblical nor necessary.
Looking at your selection of passages and points being made (emphasis mine)

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said:“My soul magnifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Gal 4: 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Col 1: 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
  1. Re: Luke 1:46, Mary said her spirit rejoices **ἀγαλλιάω agalliaō] in God my savior. Note: the tense of the verb rejoice is aorist. There is no sense of past present or future with that tense… It’s generally understood as something already done in the past. Therefore, God already saved her in the past.
    The question is when did He do that? If her soul already magnifies the Lord at this point, before Jesus technically does His work of redemption, then Mary is already benefactor of His redemptive work, therefore an exception to the rule that involved everyone else. Being the mother of God, has it’s advantages 😉
    [*]Re: Gal 4:4-5, this is talking about Jesus being born under the law, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 580 And we know He was without sin
    [*]Re: **Col 1:13, **it’s speaking about rescuing “us” after He does His work. Mary as we’ve seen was rescued in advance. The analogy is this. If I pull you out of a pit, I saved you after you fell. I could also put my hand out and grab you before you fall. Both cases you were saved.
    ​
    Other passages of interest. The angel Gabriel gives us a good view of who Mary is to God, before he announces anything to Mary and before Mary responds to the angel.
Gabriel greets Mary as “Full of grace” [kecharitomene **Lk 1:28]
The word kecharitomene (perfect tense) means that Mary was fully graced in the past, continues to the present, & continues on in the future… Being perfectly graced in front of God, means she is already different from the rest of humanity, in that she is not deprived of original holiness like all of Adam’s descendents.

Just a comment on original sin.

“… original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin contracted, not committed – a state, not an act.” CCC 404. CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 404
"Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice…[it is] an inclination to evil that is called ‘concupiscence.’ " CCC 405 CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 405

Mary was NOT deprived of original holiness and justice, and she was forever permanently graced. “kecharitomene” 🙂
 
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