Explain the justice of hell.

[jmvizanko]

And it is so ridiculous because it a strawman of what God is and has done. No one is forced to sin. Any and all can choose not to sin. This is why hell has to be real. Those you end up there could have chosen to not sin.

I prefaced it by “from my stance,” and it certainly wasn’t exhaustive. And I could elaborate if you give me an objection; for instance:

No one is forced to sin. Any and all can choose not to sin.

So then why does god say in the bible that all will sin? If all will sin, at least once in their life time, then nobody is able to not sin. And if god didn’t want us to sin, why did he make so many sins pleasurable and without any real negative consequence against anybody? For instance masturbation. Why didn’t he make sex not pleasurable? And a million other instances where we could imagine where god could have set the rules differently. I know I’m quoting the devil from a movie (both of which aren’t helping my cause), but its a really good point:

"Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He’s a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It’s the goof of all time. Look but don’t touch. Touch, but don’t taste. Taste, don’t swallow. Ahaha. "

This is why hell has to be real.

Really? God could not forgive every sinner, as he does for those believers, that are ALL sinners as well?

 

[jmvizanko]

But he gave them more than free will, didn’t he. He gave them life. He gave them a conscience to guide them. He gave them the ability to reason. He gave them a specific set of skills that they could use to do His will. H egave them direction though the prophets and apostles and He showed that they were legitimate by granting them the ability to do miraculous works.

Yet he gave them an existence in a universe full of temptations to do things he didn’t approve of. And he gave many that existence far from the availability of the “knowledge” of the prophets and the apostles for eons.

I personally don’t want to do anything that makes God extremely angry and I am certainly far from alone on this. Remember, not everyone thinks as you do. Doing things that make God angry, (like killing, stealing, lying, committing adultery- in a word, hurting others) are not good for you and you should be able to arrive at that knowledge through reason with the aid of your conscience.

I didn’t say I wanted to hurt anyone. But many mortal sins don’t really hurt anyone, except for god. Masturbation, fornication, atheism, homosexuality, blasphemy, suicide, lying (in the proper circumstance).

Well, this doesn’t tell the whole story. God continually calls to all of us to do his will. He will allow anyone to be saved who is willing to repent of his/her sins sacramentally, no matter what they have done. It is only those that won’t repent that are condemned.

Yet sacramental repentance requires belief in Catholicism to begin with. So if I’m repentant about my wrongdoings (I wouldn’t call them sins), it doesn’t really matter. God doesn’t care.

The catholic teaching on this matter is that those that live just lives who have never heard of Jesus can be saved. This is the concept of invincible ignorance. But if the truth of the Gospel is made available to them and they reject it, then they are culpable

So if the Gospel falls into a culture that has not heard of it, and they reject it in favor of their own beliefs, they all go to hell. Why do you even spread the Gospel then? All you are doing is making more people go to hell.

Men are not inherently evil . We were made in the image and nature of God.

Yet according to the bible all men except Jesus sin. What are you talking about?

There are 1.3 Billion catholics worldwide - I would say that that’s quite universal.

Yes, the other 5.5 billion (plus everyone that that hasn’t been Catholic since the dawn of man (oh wait, god didn’t really care that much about the people before Jesus, deciding to wait eons before delivering him)) people don’t matter.

The God you describe is unrecognizable to a knowledgeable Catholic.

Yet you have not demonstrated to me why this is so.

Well, that’s exactly the problem. Where you are standing doesn’t allow you to understand the true God. If you stay on this website and learn the true characteristics of God, your perspective will change

I’m here for deep conversations. I’m completely willing to change my mind, but it has to be for a reason.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
But he gave them more than free will, didn’t he. He gave them life. He gave them a conscience to guide them. He gave them the ability to reason. He gave them a specific set of skills that they could use to do His will. He gave them direction though the prophets and apostles and He showed that they were legitimate by granting them the ability to do miraculous works.

if there weren’t alternatives to God’s will (i.e. temptations) then free will would be meaningless. God gives us the dignity to choose for ourselves. If we didn’t have that choice, we’d be automatons. And Catholics believe that after his death, Jesus descended to Hell to preach to those that died before the crucifixion, thus giving everyone the chance to be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
I personally don’t want to do anything that makes God extremely angry and I am certainly far from alone on this. Remember, not everyone thinks as you do. Doing things that make God angry, (like killing, stealing, lying, committing adultery- in a word, hurting others) are not good for you and you should be able to arrive at that knowledge through reason with the aid of your conscience.

Humans can’t hurt God. Disappoint Him, yes, Hurt Him, no… But all these things you list hurt the person committing these sins because they take them away from God. and some of them hurt others. You’ve slid pretty far down the moral chain when you think lying doesn’t hurt anyone. and fornication leads to all kinds of social ills → STDS, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, hurt feelings, etc. beyond the fact that sex is sacred because it creates life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Well, this doesn’t tell the whole story. God continually calls to all of us to do his will. He will allow anyone to be saved who is willing to repent of his/her sins sacramentally, no matter what they have done. It is only those that won’t repent that are condemned.

First of all, just because you call them wrongdoings, doesn’t make them any less sinful. secondly, God definitely cares that you are repentant. However, if you know your repentance should be done sacramentally and you simply refuse to do so, you aren’t truly repentant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
The catholic teaching on this matter is that those that live just lives who have never heard of Jesus can be saved. This is the concept of invincible ignorance. But if the truth of the Gospel is made available to them and they reject it, then they are culpable

We spread the Gospel because Jesus told us to do so. And understanding the Gospel most certainly doesn’t send anyone to hell. In fact, just the opposite, it teaches how to serve God and be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Men are not inherently evil . We were made in the image and nature of God.

Men aren’t perfect but that doesn’t make them inherently evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
There are 1.3 Billion catholics worldwide - I would say that that’s quite universal.

I’ve already told you that Jesus decended to Hell to preach to those that died before his ministry. As for the other 5.5B, the simple fact is that not everyone chooses to be saved. And yes, some have had no access to Christ, They will be judged accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
The God you describe is unrecognizable to a knowledgeable Catholic.

if you are open to listening, you will gain this understanding if not from me, from others. God uses all kinds of ways to get into a man’s heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Well, that’s exactly the problem. Where you are standing doesn’t allow you to understand the true God. If you stay on this website and learn the true characteristics of God, your perspective will change

Good. God gave you reasoning skills so that you could seek and find him.

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[dedo]

I think our understanding of hell is limited by our perspective.

We don’t know all the reasons for hell. It may be that there is no alternative if a being is to be created with free will.

There are scriptural passages that suggest that people will have greater understanding about hell etc. after death. Even people in hell understand why they are there, and even the people in hell don’t want others to come there.

Also, I think it is a mistake to think of creation in terms of humans being separate. Somehow we are connected, and God is not just a separate being who creates creatures separate from Him, and then judges them when the creatures follow their natural tendencies. That view is wrong.

The Bible teaches that people are temples of the Holy Spirit. Thus, you are a walking temple. You are only separate from God if you choose to be. If you choose not to be separate from God, then He empowers you to resist temptation and forgives you when you request forgiveness. Choosing to be separate from God is a very bad choice. Life is full of bad choices, including serious crime, crack addiction, etc. However, choosing not to at least try and get to know your Creator is a very bad choice, especially if He is willing to help you avoid all the other bad choices that free will makes available to us.

One thing we do know about hell is that the road to hell is a gradual one, or a “slippery slope”. Thus, to say that some sins are “victimless” is just not true. Even Bundy said that he thought pornography got him started on the road to becoming a serial killer. Dahmer said he was driven by the combination of lust + control. So the idea that you can dabble on a “slippery slope” with no risk, and no potential harm is not consistent with religion or science.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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