Explain this heresy!

[Terry]

would you explain the apokatastasis heresy in terms relevent to the understanding of salvation through the Catholic Church? This was brought forth by an early church father, Origen?, and submerged through time but may have morffed into the present day noise. Thanks

 

[estesbob]

The idea was that nobody went to hell. The hellfire desrcibed in Scripture was “instructional” not perpetual and everyone eventually saw the light and went to heaven,.

I have run across many Catholics(I call them “care bear catholics” who beleive God is so loving he could never send someone to hell. IMO they are unknowingly buying into this heresy.

 

[Greg27]

This idea was that hell was a place of temporary and not eternal punishment; the purpose of hell was not eternal damnation but rather as a sort of ‘super-purgatory’ in which the sins, even of the worse sinners, were purified before they were restored. Origen may have developed this in response to criticisms at the hand of Pagans like Celsus (though we are not sure as Origen’s works were tampered with in translation by scholar-followers like Rufinus who tried to make his teachings more palatable). Origen’s system was taken to extreme by Evagrius, who taught ideas which were a lot like those of the multiple hells/heavens of East Asian religions.

No-one in Catholicism teaches apocstasis as a doctrine though generally there is a ‘theology of hope’ which stresses God’s mercy and that we hope God’s mercy and universal salvific will extend to all (provided when God gives all a chance at salvation they respond freely to the gift of salvation in Christ) but not at the expense of human freedom. Hell then is a real possibility for every individual who chooses at any point to reject God’s love and grace forever.

 

[Ahimsa]

There are two versions of ‘apokatastasis’. The first, supposedly taught by Origen, states that everyone will *necessarily *be saved, even if they don’t want to be saved. A Church Council rejected this version.

The second, taught by Gregory of Nyssa, among others, states that everyone will be saved eventually, not by necessity, but by their eventual repentance (however long that might take). This version has never been condemned by a Council.

 

[estesbob]

There are two versions of ‘apokatastasis’. The first, supposedly taught by Origen, states that everyone will *necessarily *be saved, even if they don’t want to be saved. A Church Council rejected this version.

The second, taught by Gregory of Nyssa, among others, states that everyone will be saved eventually, not by necessity, but by their eventual repentance (however long that might take). This version has never been condemned by a Council.

But runs afould of the infallibe teachings of the Church. Not every heresey need to be condemned to make it wrong.

 

[Ahimsa]

But runs afould of the infallibe teachings of the Church. Not every heresey need to be condemned to make it wrong.

Well, one can certainly hope that all will eventually repent. I suspect Gregory of Nyssa wouldn’t object.

 

[estesbob]

Well, one can certainly hope that all will eventually repent. I suspect Gregory of Nyssa wouldn’t object.

The question is whether they repent before or after they die, As our Church teaches we all hope for the former but the latter is not possible.

 

[Ahimsa]

The question is whether they repent before or after they die, As our Church teaches we all hope for the former but the latter is not possible.

That’s interesting. In Eastern Orthodoxy (and, I presume, in Eastern Catholicism), it’s taught that death does not fix one’s final fate – one’s final fate is not fixed until the Last Judgement (which has not occurred yet). Therefore, one should pray for those who have died, so that God’s mercy can be upon them.

 

[frnate]

The question is whether they repent before or after they die, As our Church teaches we all hope for the former but the latter is not possible.

A learned Orthodox priest once told me that the East teaches there is hope for everyone, living or dead, until the final judgment.

I hope so.

Peace,
+N

 

[estesbob]

A learned Orthodox priest once told me that the East teaches there is hope for everyone, living or dead, until the final judgment.

I hope so.

Peace,
+N

I am not aware the the Catholic Church-east or west, has ever taught that. Can anyone give us a link? I hope its true!

 

[Ahimsa]

I am not aware the the Catholic Church-east or west, has ever taught that. Can anyone give us a link? I hope its true!

Here’s a link.

Some of the confusion might occur in that most Protestant confessions teach that the judgment after death determines the eternal state of the soul. Not so, according to the Tradition and teaching of the Orthodox Faith. The particular judgment immediately after death only determines the state and “residence” of the soul in the spiritual world and that judgment is based on who our spiritual “friends” are. Do we have more converse with angels or demons? Do we devote ourselves more to the saints or to sinners? Are we attached to the world or to the Kingdom of God? Do we act like Satan or Christ? Whatever we are like, there we are placed in the spiritual world. And the demons are diligent in attempting to demonstrate that we are tied to them and not to Christ and so any and every unconfessed sin, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant is brought out by them as accusations against us and the angels on the other hand counter this accusation by a description of our righteous deeds which indicate our change of heart and life. But do not confuse this particular judgment and temporary disposition with the eternal disposition of the soul to be determined at the Great Judgment. Then, the soul being reunited with the body thanks to the general resurrection, each person will be judged by God Who sees within either the spark of grace or none and those who have that spark will be brought into the Kingdom of God and those who do not will be cast into outer darkness - finally and eternally. So you see that when we pray for the departed, we do so knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred and while we don’t know what the exact needs of the departed are, we can simply lift them up to God calling out for His mercy.

 

[estesbob]

Here’s a link.

Is the group part of the Catholic Church???

 

[Ahimsa]

Is the group part of the Catholic Church???

Eastern Orthodox. However, Eastern Catholics have the same theology as the Eastern Orthodox:

This is from a Melkite website, the Melkites being Eastern Catholics:

We ask the question: Are our prayers for the dead efficacious? Can we benefit our deceased loved ones by prayer, good works and suffrage prayers such as liturgies? Our Eastern liturgy is replete with prayers for the dead. Our calendar, unlike the calendar of the Latin Church, has several feast days that are set-aside for prayers for the dead. The Saturday before Pentecost and the Saturdays of Great Lent are good examples. Further, we observe the third, ninth, and fortieth day after the death of a loved one as important anniversaries that we observe with a Liturgy offered for the repose of the soul of a loved one. Clearly, both in the East and the West, we believe that our prayers benefit the dead. The writings of St. John Climacus: The Ladder of Divine Ascent describes some of the imagery that we find in our Eastern view of the soul’s ascent to God. Perhaps you have seen the ancient icon that portrays the soul on its ascent to God. We pray that the journey will be free of pain and diabolical attack.

 

[estesbob]

Eastern Orthodox. However, Eastern Catholics have the same theology as the Eastern Orthodox:

This is from a Melkite website, the Melkites being Eastern Catholics:

I think we are discussing different things. I kow it is proper to pray for the dead. The question is whehter praying for the dead can get them out of hell. I dont think that is the teachigs of our Church. The links you provided , I believe, refer to souls in Purgatory.

 

[Ahimsa]

I think we are discussing different things. I kow it is proper to pray for the dead. The question is whehter praying for the dead can get them out of hell. I dont think that is the teachigs of our Church. The links you provided , I believe, refer to souls in Purgatory.

“Hell” is the key word here. Eastern Catholics don’t speak of people being sent to “hell” right after they die – “hell” doesn’t occur until the Last Judgement. Until then, one is in the spiritual world, and the prayers of those on earth can help you.

In the Latin Church, there are two options after you die: (1) hell and (2) purgatory/heaven. But since you don’t know where the person is, you might as well pray for them, even if they are actually in hell and have no hope of getting out.

Eastern Catholics (who are in communion with the Pope) don’t outright reject the Latin Church’s position, but they seem to see it as an alternative position, equally viable.

In both cases (the Eastern Catholic and the Latin Catholic cases), there is: (1) a place where people go after death, before they reach heaven; and (2) prayers being made for those people.

The difference is that the Eastern Catholics believe that everyone after death can be helped by their prayers; whereas the Latin Catholics believe that only those in purgatory can be helped by their prayers.

In a sense, you could say that for Eastern Catholics, everyone goes to purgatory after death, no one is totally lost, until the Last Judgement. (But, then, that view of purgatory is very different from the Latin view.)

 

[rpp]

After reading the first couple of posts, I was going to jump in with estesbob and and talk about the silliness of “universal salvation”. Which is, of course, silly, but also a popular theme among the current crop of cowardly theologians.

But then I saw the postings about what the Melkite allegedly (I need to check sources) say about death and judgment. In all my rather extensive, albeit personal and unguided study of Catholic doctrine, I have never come across this. I need to learn more about it.

The real problem with apokatastasis is that it removes culpability of sin. If we are all going to eventually be in Heaven, why worry about those pesky details of life like murder, rape, fornication, etc.

 

[Ahimsa]

The real problem with apokatastasis is that it removes culpability of sin.

Not necessarily

If we are all going to eventually be in Heaven, why worry about those pesky details of life like murder, rape, fornication, etc.

For St. Gregory of Nyssa, entrance into Heaven requires true repentance. He believed that all will eventually truly repent, which means that the more sins one does, the more painful will be the process of repentance. So it makes sense to not sin, and not undergo the painful purification. And if you think you can scheme yourself into heaven, that’ll just cause more pain.

 

[DL82]

If the state of the soul is fully fixed at death, what is the point in the Last Judgment? If our fate is fixed at the partial judgment when we die, why re-visit the decision? If the first decision is perfect, there’s no point taking it to appeal, as it were.

From what I understand of the Eastern view, Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are much more mixed. If we look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, they can clearly see eachother, though one is in torment and the other with Abraham and therefore in the Father. God’s presence is both the light of beatific vision to the saved and the fire of torment to the damned, though most of us are somewhere in between, with sin to be burned away, but capable of receiving something of the light of God’s love at the same time. As time goes on until the last judgment, our sin burns away, leaving only the light of life. That is to say Heaven, Purgatory and Hell all happen in the same ‘place’, the inescapable presence of God.

This kind of understanding makes more sense to me than the somewhat legalistic beliefs that have grown up in the West about how many ‘days’ of purgatory we can remit through certain indulgenced prayers, etc.

 

[Ghosty]

Hell is a broad term in the East, not at all as precise as the Western use, so it can be quite misleading to simply crossover the usages without proper explaination and understanding.

As for the difference between the Eastern and the Latin view of Purgatory, the only ultimate difference is that the Latins refer to those who can and will ultimately be saved as being in Purgatory, and consign those who won’t be to “Hell”. The East is not as specific, but does definately have a belief that certain of the dead won’t ever be saved. Since the Latins don’t “canonize the Damned”, i.e. proclaim positively who is and isn’t certainly damned, all the dead are prayed for just as in the East. That the Latins are more specific and refined in their terminology is simply a peculiarity of the Latin tradition.

The purpose of the Final Judgement, at least from the Latin view, is the ultimate reckoning for all Creation, and the beginning of the New Jerusalem, where all the dead receive their bodies back and become Glorified. Heaven, prior to the Final Judgement, is not the fullness of the reward, and Hell prior isn’t the fullness of punishment; Heaven and the New Earth are the fullness of the reward, and when the Damned receive back their bodies the fullness of their torment will begin. Until such time we will be incomplete, and will not have complete enjoyment/suffering in our human faculties, as humans aren’t just souls, but are souls with bodies.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ahimsa]

The East is not as specific, but does definately have a belief that certain of the dead won’t ever be saved.

Do you know who these certain people are?

Would you say that this is a common opinion, or is this something coming from a conciliar decision?