Explain This - Non Catholics?

[RevDrNorth]

Hey REV God is not your personal Merical Puppet

That is it. You make a claim and then use bad logic, no evidence, etc and just expect me to accept it like a niave idiot (me being the idot). This is in line with the claims of impregantion by aliens.

 

[RevDrNorth]

The first part of your post was so petty I’ll just ignore it.

My complaint is that you dismissed the claim as if it were impossible. You said that you would only believe the “miracle” if the saint had regrown a fingernail. This implies that you don’t believe that God can interfere with the natural order of things.

A Christian must, by definition, believe that this miracle is possible, since the Christian God is omnipotent. Your comments seemed to indicate that you weren’t even open to the possibility.

I’m sure this was motivated more by a prejudice against Catholics than by a doubt in God’s capabilities, but it’s still troubling.

You must ignore the first paragraph because it is your logic.

It is not prejudice to ask for support for claims. I would love to read it and maybe I would be amazed and believe. I am an academic whose faith is grounded in reason.

I certainly do not doubt your pious sincerity. You are very articulate.

Rev North

 

[dosdog]

You must ignore the first paragraph because it is your logic.

Rev North

A Medical Bureau was established in 1882 to test the authenticity of the cures. The doctors include unbelievers as well as believers and any doctor is welcome to take part in the examination of the alleged cures. As many as 500 medical men of all faiths or no faith have taken advantage of the invitation each year. Many books and movies tell the story of Lourdes. Even Hollywood made a movie of this remarkable event in the 1940’s entitled “The Song of Bernadette” which won six academy awards
olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

 

[Dauphin]

You must ignore the first paragraph because it is your logic.

Rev North

MY logic? I’m not arguing that this miracle actually happened, only that it’s a possibility!

Are you asuming that because I’m Catholic, I’m bound to believe in this miracle? I’m not! Catholics aren’t even bound to believe in Fatima. I’m not trying to convince you that this miracle happened.

My only complaints are that your tone is condescending and that you seem to have dismissed this miracle as quickly as an atheist would have.

 

[RevDrNorth]

A Medical Bureau was established in 1882 to test the authenticity of the cures. The doctors include unbelievers as well as believers and any doctor is welcome to take part in the examination of the alleged cures. As many as 500 medical men of all faiths or no faith have taken advantage of the invitation each year. Many books and movies tell the story of Lourdes. Even Hollywood made a movie of this remarkable event in the 1940’s entitled “The Song of Bernadette” which won six academy awards
olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

This has nothing to do with proof of the missing hand or the illogic of believing it cuz he said his hand was chopped or off and grew back.

However, that was a great movie. Very moving. It is the one with Vincent Price as the town official (yes??).

Rev North

 

[Dauphin]

This has nothing to do with proof of the missing hand or the illogic of believing it cuz he said his hand was chopped or off and grew back.

However, that was a great movie. Very moving. It is the one with Vincent Price as the town official (yes??).

Rev North

Here you go again!

“The illogic of believing it”? Where’s the illogic in the idea that God can grow someone’s hand back? Is it the same sort of illogic that leads people to believe that Jesus Christ cured the blind?

 

[RevDrNorth]

Here you go again!

“The illogic of believing it”? Where’s the illogic in the idea that God can grow someone’s hand back? Is it the same sort of illogic that lead people to believe that Jesus Christ cured the blind?

Where is the illogic of believing without proof that aliens landed and impregnated women on God’s order or that tele Healer Benny Hinn has raised people for the dead.

Rev North

 

[Nella]

Here you go again!

“The illogic of believing it”? Where’s the illogic in the idea that God can grow someone’s hand back? Is it the same sort of illogic that leads people to believe that Jesus Christ cured the blind?

You use the logic of “it can happen” instead of what is needed here, “it did happen”. This is the same logic Catholics use to explain the Assumption of Mary. Catholics when faced with how to prove this actually happened merely say that if God could do it for Enoch, then he must be able to do it for Mary. Well duh!! But the question is, did he?? We know he can but we don’t know if he did. Same thing.

 

[dosdog]

This has nothing to do with proof of the missing hand or the illogic of believing it cuz he said his hand was chopped or off and grew back.

However, that was a great movie. Very moving. It is the one with Vincent Price as the town official (yes??).

Rev North

It is easy to see what happens: Nothing. amputees’ limbs are never restored through prayer. If you want to be more rigorous, you can search every medical journal electronically. You will find that there has never been a documented case of an amputated limb spontaneously regenerating.

wow, empirical proof! Right before your eyes, God is proven not to exist

 

[Dauphin]

Where is the illogic of believing without proof that aliens landed and impregnated women on God’s order or that tele Healer Benny Hinn has raised people for the dead.

Rev North

We know with absolute certainty that aliens did not land on earth and impregnate our women. Human beings developed through evolutionary means. We impregnated eachother.

Your second example isn’t entirely implausible. It is conceivable that God raised someone from the dead at the behest of Benny Hinn. Obviously, you don’t have to accept it. However, to dismiss it out of hand comes dangerously close to denying the power of God.

 

[RevDrNorth]

We know with absolute certainty that aliens did not land on earth and impregnate our women. Human beings developed through evolutionary means. We impregnated eachother.

Your second example isn’t entirely implausible. It is conceivable that God raised someone from the dead at the behest of Benny Hinn. Obviously, you don’t have to accept it. However, to dismiss it out of hand comes dangerously close to denying the power of God.

I like you Dauphin :tiphat:

You are articulate and explain yourself well. I forgot what you said your plans in terms of vocation are but may almighty God bless you. I think your sincerity and faith will be a blessing to the Roman Catholic Church. Have you considered a religious vocation? Canada needs more orthodox Roman Catholics. My home nations (according to some on the vocation forum) has slid terribly in that regard and has more than a few liberal diocese. Of course Canada tends to be more socially like Europeans than like Americans.

Rev North

 

[Dauphin]

You use the logic of “it can happen” instead of what is needed here, “it did happen”. This is the same logic Catholics use to explain the Assumption of Mary. Catholics when faced with how to prove this actually happened merely say that if God could do it for Enoch, then he must be able to do it for Mary. Well duh!! But the question is, did he?? We know he can but we don’t know if he did. Same thing.

We know with certainty that she was assumed into heaven because the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church has defined this infallibly under the protection promised to her in blessed Peter.

You could dismiss the entire faith if you placed any of the acts of Christ under the same scrunity which you place marian dogma. Your insistence on scientific proof or documentary evidence (beyond direct witness) is unreasonable.

For protestants, it ultimately comes down to “cus the Bible says so”. I could easily tell you: “we know that Jesus was capable of ascending into heaven, but we don’t know that he did”

Most protestants would answer “Yes we do! The Bible says so!”

I’d have to agree. Thankfully, I’m not limited to sola scriptura, so I can also affirm the assumption because of the statements of the magesterium and sacred oral tradition.

 

[Dauphin]

I like you Dauphin :tiphat:

You are articulate and explain yourself well. I forgot what you said your plans in terms of vocation are but may almighty God bless you. I think your sincerity and faith will be a blessing to the Roman Catholic Church. Have you considered a religious vocation?

Rev North

Thanks for your kind comments!

Yes, I am seriously considering entering the priesthood once I’ve graduated from university. I’m looking closely at the FSSP.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Thanks for your kind comments!

Yes, I am seriously considering entering the priesthood once I’ve graduated from university. I’m looking closely at the FSSP.

Wonderful! Canada needs more dedicated orthodox Catholics. The vocation forum makes it seem like my home nation has become very liberal. As I note above, Canada is more like Europe socially than they are like the US.

If your profile is accurate and your are as articulate before even graduating from college you will do well. Probably help you nail down Latin I was registered through a Catholic college and dropped that course. German is easier.

Rev North {dude from the prairies}

 

[Atemi]

Precisely! The miracle of the appearance flesh and blood was an additional miracle designed to enhance our faith.

Enhance your faith in what?

That the Eucharist is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches that it is not?

It’s very simple, really.

If I chased after the “miraculous” to enhance my faith, I would probably agree with you.

It seems to me that Atemi is being deliberately thick…

Thank you for the insult, but it does not address the more seious questions.

…

 

[Zooey]

I believe in the Assumption of Mary, based on my study of the Bible. I believe in it absolutely. I go beyond believing she was assumed, and believe, based on my study of the Bible, that she never died, but was assumed, living, into Heaven.
No problem. It’s Biblical, & its totally appropriate & logical even, that it should be true.

I have no problem believing that a saint may have had his hand healed by Divine intervention. I’m inclined to think this may be a wee bit of an exaggeration…most likely it was still there though gravely injured & instantaneously healed; but,then again, Jesus reattached the ear that Peter cut off in the Garden of Gethsemane. Certainly, if He should care to, He could regrow St John’s hand.

I believe that there have been miraculous healings at Lourdes. There have been too many things written, by skeptics as well as believers, for me to doubt that there were such things. And, after all, why not?? He is a God of love & compassion, after all.

I do not believe in the “Miracle at Lanciano”. I’m sorry; I’m usually, I confess, a bit of a pushover when it comes to miraculous occurrences…
This may have something to do with the fact that, in 1946, my mother underwent major surgery; the doctors looked inside her, sewed her up, and sent her home to die. She was full of cancer, and had weeks to live.(Yes, they did a biopsy!)
My mother died in** 2000**. She was 86 years old, and she died of a post-surgical infection, after a full life. She was miraculously healed after an interesting event: Her (Methodist) church held a prayer vigil for days on end. During the same days, the Catholics in the next town were holding a novena of healing for her…
On the night of the 9th day, Mama’s pastor, another Methodist pastor, and my grandmother’s beloved Irish Catholic best friend all arrived at the door of her employer’s house, at near midnight, and told him “Don’t hire anyone for her job; she has been healed”.

So I believe in miracles. But I don’t, you see, believe that anything happened of great moment in Lanciano, so far as the Eucharist goes…I do believe that belief in it has been an inspiration to many…and:shrug: I don’t understand it. Frankly, I find it repellent. It flies in the face of Who & What Jesus Christ was & is. It flies in the face of Who & What occurs in Holy Communion.

But I’m more than willing to believe, you see, in miracles. Just not this one. It’s not…It feels wrong. It feels creepy, to be honest. If Lanciano were a “pious legend”, I could accept the legend as a story. But it wouldn’t inspire me. It wouldn’t inspire me at all…It would, in fact, make me feel nearly as horrid as it does to sit here, & look at that dreadful picture of it…which I am not going to describe , because I know that it’s only my mind making it look like something that won’t sicken me.

But that’s me. I can’t help it…It’s just…It’s wrong. It’s very very wrong.

 

[cheddarsox]

I thought in the course of the Mass, all the blood is to be consumed by the priest, and the vessel washed out and then THAT water also consumed.

Why wasn’t the blood that resulted from this miracle consumed?

 

[Valke2]

If a saint had his hand restored, am I to believe that all those amputees that did not have limbs restored are suffering from divine punishment?

 

[Indyann]

I believe in the Assumption of Mary, based on my study of the Bible. I believe in it absolutely. I go beyond believing she was assumed, and believe, based on my study of the Bible, that she never died, but was assumed, living, into Heaven.
No problem. It’s Biblical, & its totally appropriate & logical even, that it should be true.

I have no problem believing that a saint may have had his hand healed by Divine intervention. I’m inclined to think this may be a wee bit of an exaggeration…most likely it was still there though gravely injured & instantaneously healed; but,then again, Jesus reattached the ear that Peter cut off in the Garden of Gethsemane. Certainly, if He should care to, He could regrow St John’s hand.

I believe that there have been miraculous healings at Lourdes. There have been too many things written, by skeptics as well as believers, for me to doubt that there were such things. And, after all, why not?? He is a God of love & compassion, after all.

I do not believe in the “Miracle at Lanciano”. I’m sorry; I’m usually, I confess, a bit of a pushover when it comes to miraculous occurrences…
This may have something to do with the fact that, in 1946, my mother underwent major surgery; the doctors looked inside her, sewed her up, and sent her home to die. She was full of cancer, and had weeks to live.(Yes, they did a biopsy!)
My mother died in** 2000**. She was 86 years old, and she died of a post-surgical infection, after a full life. She was miraculously healed after an interesting event: Her (Methodist) church held a prayer vigil for days on end. During the same days, the Catholics in the next town were holding a novena of healing for her…
On the night of the 9th day, Mama’s pastor, another Methodist pastor, and my grandmother’s beloved Irish Catholic best friend all arrived at the door of her employer’s house, at near midnight, and told him “Don’t hire anyone for her job; she has been healed”.

So I believe in miracles. But I don’t, you see, believe that anything happened of great moment in Lanciano, so far as the Eucharist goes…I do believe that belief in it has been an inspiration to many…and:shrug: I don’t understand it. Frankly, I find it repellent. It flies in the face of Who & What Jesus Christ was & is. It flies in the face of Who & What occurs in Holy Communion.

But I’m more than willing to believe, you see, in miracles. Just not this one. It’s not…It feels wrong. It feels creepy, to be honest. If Lanciano were a “pious legend”, I could accept the legend as a story. But it wouldn’t inspire me. It wouldn’t inspire me at all…It would, in fact, make me feel nearly as horrid as it does to sit here, & look at that dreadful picture of it…which I am not going to describe , because I know that it’s only my mind making it look like something that won’t sicken me.

But that’s me. I can’t help it…It’s just…It’s wrong. It’s very very wrong.

Well, maybe some of you naysayers will find one of these Eucharistic miracles more to your liking. Not so “creepy”. Not so “dreadful”, maybe not so “wrong”, something that won’t “sicken” you.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

 

[Nella]

We know with certainty that she was assumed into heaven because the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church has defined this infallibly under the protection promised to her in blessed Peter.

You could dismiss the entire faith if you placed any of the acts of Christ under the same scrunity which you place marian dogma. Your insistence on scientific proof or documentary evidence (beyond direct witness) is unreasonable.

For protestants, it ultimately comes down to “cus the Bible says so”. I could easily tell you: “we know that Jesus was capable of ascending into heaven, but we don’t know that he did”

Most protestants would answer “Yes we do! The Bible says so!”

I’d have to agree. Thankfully, I’m not limited to sola scriptura, so I can also affirm the assumption because of the statements of the magesterium and sacred oral tradition.

So the Bible said that Jesus ascended to Heaven. The Bible says nothing of Mary being assumed. Huge difference.