Explain This - Non Catholics?

[aristotle]

AgnosTheist,

When I use the term “science” or “scientifically” I don’t mean with rockets or advanced gadgets. All I mean is in a way that can be reproduced, at least in principle.

How can an experiment falsify a miracle?

 

[AgnosTheist]

You believe Paul and Constantine were real people. You know they had a radical conversion because of some vision or “miracle.”
So, why don’t you believe in miracles?

because they could just be having a delusion which they misinterpreted.

Also, by your logic, you would need a miracle in order to come back to the CC.

only a miracle will convince me to follow a religion. any religion. Could be for CC, or if it happens for radical islam, then its too bad for the rest of you. allah akhbar! kaboom! no problemo. god knows best.

The miracle has already happened. Can you guess what it is?

 

[AgnosTheist]

How can an experiment falsify a miracle?

Experiments are not always reliable. It cant always replicate stuff, even natural ones.

Its just one of the tools for clarifying an event whether its natural or nature-defying.

 

[jpasta]

Indeed Agnos…it is a miracle that you are here.
Doesn’t it feel all super natural?

 

[mtr01]

An example of your cynical anti-catholic comment.
“Mary is show up and changing rosaries into gold”.
Of all the nerve for you to try to get away with such
blasphemy.

peace

I think Dr. North finally abandoned his posts when he realized his beloved Orthodox Church also recognized St. John Damascene’s miracle.

…Then John, prostrating himself before an Icon of the Blessed Virgin in his private chapel, poured out his soul in supplication, praying that the hand which he placed against his mutilated arm might grow again to the limb from which it had been severed. He fell asleep, worn out with pain and weariness, and in a dream beheld the Holy Virgin signifying that his prayer had been heard. The vision came true. On starting up he found his hand to be indeed restored whole as the other.

         The news of this miracle                soon reached the ear of the caliph. Again John was summoned to his                presence, and strictly questioned. His enemies tried in vain to                explain it away; but the red line showing where the knife had cut                still remained visible, and no earthly physician could have wrought                such a work of healing. The caliph was not only convinced that this                was a miracle, but he pleaded with John to resume his former office                as privy-councilor...

orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/patrology/moses_st_john_damascus.htm

 

[aristotle]

Experiments are not always reliable. It cant always replicate stuff, even natural ones.

Its just one of the tools for clarifying an event whether its natural or nature-defying.

This doesn’t answer my question.

 

[AgnosTheist]

This doesn’t answer my question.

are you referring to falsifying miracles in general, or just the red-sea scenario?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Indeed Agnos…it is a miracle that you are here.
Doesn’t it feel all super natural?

aww, you should have let Agnos figure that out!

 

[AgnosTheist]

Indeed Agnos…it is a miracle that you are here.
Doesn’t it feel all super natural?

it does feel a little different.

christine might actually talk me into doing that Holy Hour thingie.

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

Lukewarm ? beware.

 

[qui_est_ce]

it does feel a little different.

christine might actually talk me into doing that Holy Hour thingie.

Hi Agnos,
Would you please listen to the following before you attend a Holy Hour? I am not gifted with words, but I do like to listen to intelligent apologetics.

biblechristiansociety.com/account/download?return=%2Fdownload%2Fmp3%2Fwas_hitler_right.mp3

Thanks. See you Monday. I have a lot of work to get done, have been working overtime because I spend too much time here!

 

[brosam]

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Edoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon
In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor’s conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.
zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

The extract of the scientific research of WHO’s medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science’s inability to explain the phenomenon
In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.
The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:
The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.

The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.

The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.

In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.

The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).

In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.

In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.

The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Honestly I can’t explain it, except to say that the Bible tells us that the Devil can and does do counterfeit miracles to deceive people.

But the bigger issue is, do we determine truth by experiences or do we judge experiences by truth?

As a Christian, all of the “miracles” in the world wouldn’t convince me that Roman Catholicism is true, so long as the Bible speaks out against it’s teachings.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But the bigger issue is, do we determine truth by experiences or do we judge experiences by truth?

We determine experiences by TRUTH.

As a Christian, all of the “miracles” in the world wouldn’t convince me that Roman Catholicism is true, so long as the Bible speaks out against it’s teachings.

Who gave Christians the Bible? Where did it come from? The CC is the Bible Church of the Apostles. Tell ONE thing the Catholic Church teaches that is not Biblically based.

 

[brosam]

We determine experiences by TRUTH.

OK. So then, why am I being asked to judge the truth of Roman Catholicism based on this experience?

Who gave Christians the Bible?

God.

The CC is the Bible Church of the Apostles.

Sure it is.

Tell ONE thing the Catholic Church teaches that is not Biblically based.

Praying to the dead (yes, I know, you’re going to say that they’re not really dead), the worship of Mary (yes, I know, you’re going to say that, just because you bow down and pray to statues of her, that’s not really worship), Purgatory, an “infallible” pope, the office of pope, indulgences, the necessity of rituals for salvation, ex ecclesia nulla salas, etc.

 

[qui_est_ce]

OK. So then, why am I being asked to judge the truth of Roman Catholicism based on this experience?

That was an example of an experience judged by truth

God.

So God wrote the words on the pages and dropped the complete manuscript down from Heaven into the lap of the Council of Hippo.

Sure it is.

We agree on something

Praying to the dead (yes, I know, you’re going to say that they’re not really dead), the worship of Mary (yes, I know, you’re going to say that, just because you bow down and pray to statues of her, that’s not really worship), Purgatory, an “infallible” pope, the office of pope, indulgences, the necessity of rituals for salvation, ex ecclesia nulla salas, etc.

I asked for Truths taught by the Church which are not Biblical.

 

[brosam]

I asked for Truths taught by the Church which are not Biblical.

And I gave you several.

 

[qui_est_ce]

indulgences.

“We being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another” (Romans 12:5). As each organ shares in the life of the whole body, so does each of the faithful profit by the prayers and good works of all the rest-a benefit which accrues, in the first instance, to those who are in the state of grace, but also, though less fully, to the sinful members

Colossians (1: 24) of his own works: “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church,”

the worship of Mary (yes, I know, you’re going to say that, just because you bow down and pray to statues of her, that’s not really worship),

The statues are a resprensentation of Saints we revere. What is wrong with honoring the Mother of Jesus?

the office of pope,

(Matthew 16:19): “I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shaft loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Cf. Matthew 18:18, where like power is conferred on all the Apostles.) No limit is placed upon this power of loosing,

ex ecclesia nulla salas, etc

When properly understood, this means that because the CC holds the keys of Truth, all the world can be saved. Truth has been preserved and evangelized for 2,000 years.

an “infallible” pope,

the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.

Matthew 16:18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will ***build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ***

Praying to the dead (yes, I know, you’re going to say that they’re not really dead),

The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in 2 Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel,
making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)

Purgatory

1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
“Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

the necessity of rituals for salvation

???

 

[brosam]

“We being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another” (Romans 12:5). As each organ shares in the life of the whole body, so does each of the faithful profit by the prayers and good works of all the rest-a benefit which accrues, in the first instance, to those who are in the state of grace, but also, though less fully, to the sinful members

OK. And this has what, exactly, to do with paying someone’s way out of Purgatory?

The statues are a resprensentation of Saints we revere. What is wrong with honoring the Mother of Jesus?

Nothing. However, bowing to statues and praying to them is strictly forbidden.

(Matthew 16:19): “I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shaft loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Cf. Matthew 18:18, where like power is conferred on all the Apostles.) No limit is placed upon this power of loosing,

And you believe this refers to the pope…how, exactly?

When properly understood, this means that because the CC holds the keys of Truth, all the world can be saved. Truth has been preserved and evangelized for 2,000 years.

And how do you come to this “proper understanding”?

the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.

Then why does Roman Catholicism teach so many things that are in error?

Matthew 16:18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will ***build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ***

This is a very common Roman Catholic tactic. Would you care to go back and try quoting this verse in the correct context?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
“Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

Unfortunately, this is referring to degrees of reward in Heaven, not to sending men to Purgatory to catch those last little sins that Jesus’ atonement missed.

 

[qui_est_ce]

OK. So then, why am I being asked to judge the truth of Roman Catholicism based on this experience?

It shows that Catholic Christians believed in the Real Presence since at least the 8th century. We have believed it since the beginning
Acts 2:42
They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers

 

[brosam]

It shows that Catholic Christians believed in the Real Presence since at least the 8th century. We have believed it since the beginning

And therein lies the problem. Are we to base our doctrine on what somebody else believes? Or on the word of God?