Explaining Catholic Bible vs. King James Bible and Saints to Baptist friend

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7_Sorrows

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I have a good friend who is Baptist. I have been Catholic for 8 1/2 years and was Episcopalian before that so I have only known churches with liturgical services and Holy Communion or the liturgy of the Eucharist being important parts of the service.

I told my friend that I wanted to get my grandson ( he is 10 1/2) a youth Bible and I would like to buy a Catholic one. She, of course, argued I should buy him a King James Bible. Since I was Episcopalian I grew up reading the Bibles that had the extra books which we called Apocrypha and Catholics call Deuterocannonical books.
She is so adamantly against Catholic Bibles and thinks the King James Bible is the only one that is worth having.

Also when it comes to saints, she recently was going to have cataract surgery and was
anxious about it and I told her I would pray for her. I checked and found out St. Lucy
was the patron saint for eyesight and told her that and she got really quiet. Then I told her how when I lose something I always pray to Saint Anthony and I will find what I am looking for within a short time and she angrily replied that it was God who led me to my lost item.

She has admitted that the Reformation happened because people wanted to do things their own way and I have tried to educate her about the early church and the Catholic and Orthodox and sometimes she is open to listening to the history.
I am not trying to convert her, but I know she is a strong Christian and is interested in different Christian denominations.
I accept that she and her husband are Baptists, but I think it bothers her I am Catholic.

And I don’t see anything wrong with owning a Catholic Bible over a King James version
or praying to saints.

Any advice on how to answer her would be welcomed.
 
You could explain to her that the original KJV had the Apochrypha.😉
 
Spend most of your time talking about things common to Catholicism and avoid arguments. Just set agood example. The only good bible is the one you read. In reality she can on come to the church through God’S grace.
 
Ironically it is where the Catholic Church regards scripture in a basic fundamental way that the fundamentalists get most upset with us. (Eucharist in John 6, Confession in James 5:16, “faith alone” James 2:24).

What happens with Protestants is they are taught an interpretation of an interpretation most often with a starting point of “Catholicism is wrong”. It is in knowing the Protestants faith at a deeper level than them which opens their ears that what one has to say might be coming from a place of education rather that rote recitation.

As such, when you can point out the KJV actually had the Apochrypha, you take out a brick in their wall of (not in a mean way) ignorance. It also plants the seed if they were not taught such an important fact about the foundation of their faith it might be possible other areas were a bit lacking as well.

Pax.
 
7_Sorrows said:
Then I told her how when I lose something I always pray to Saint Anthony and I will find what I am looking for within a short time and she angrily replied that it was God who led me to my lost item.
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You’re both right. 🙂

Orthodox Catholic teaching is that the Saints have no powers to help us except intercession. Praying to Saint Anthony to find something, properly understood, is praying that Saint Anthony intercede on your behalf, that God help you find something.
 
ChurchSoldier said:
You could explain to her that the original KJV had the Apochrypha.😉
Click to expand...
True! Actually the 1611 version contains all of the Catholic books and three books which aren’t Canon in the Church but appear in an appendix to the Latin Vulgate;1 and 2 Esdras ( though in the Vulgate it’s 3 and 4 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras in it), and the Prayer of Mannaseh.
 
TomFromMD said:
You’re both right. 🙂

Orthodox Catholic teaching is that the Saints have no powers to help us except intercession. Praying to Saint Anthony to find something, properly understood, is praying that Saint Anthony intercede on your behalf, that God help you find something.
Click to expand...
I explained that it was intercession, but I could almost “see” her roll her eyes over the phone or a tone of why do you need a saint to intercede when you can ask God directly.
I got the impression she doesn’t and won’t ever believe in saints.
 
The scripture is the same in both Bibles isn’t it other than the Catholic Bible has extra books? Are there any words omitted or changed in the KJV?
I can assure you that she owns and reads the King James without the
Apocrypha.
I do understand “sola scriptura” and the authority the Bible holds for her, but I get the feeling she would almost be afraid to open a Catholic Bible or read it because it holds
untruths.
I just wonder what Baptists are taught about Catholics.

I was explaining how the Orthodox (Greek, Russian) celebrate Christmas and Easter on different dates. She had no idea they did. I said it was because they go by the Julian
calendar while we use the Gregorian calendar named after Pope Gregory (whatever the number is following his name). I don’t think that made her happy. Protestants don’t seem very educated in how the Catholic church influenced civilization through
the years.

Thank all of you for your replies so far.
 
7_Sorrows said:
The scripture is the same in both Bibles isn’t it other than the Catholic Bible has extra books? Are there any words omitted or changed in the KJV?
I can assure you that she owns and reads the King James without the
Apocrypha.
I do understand “sola scriptura” and the authority the Bible holds for her, but I get the feeling she would almost be afraid to open a Catholic Bible or read it because it holds
untruths.
I just wonder what Baptists are taught about Catholics.

I was explaining how the Orthodox (Greek, Russian) celebrate Christmas and Easter on different dates. She had no idea they did. I said it was because they go by the Julian
calendar while we use the Gregorian calendar named after Pope Gregory (whatever the number is following his name). I don’t think that made her happy. Protestants don’t seem very educated in how the Catholic church influenced civilization through
the years.

Thank all of you for your replies so far.
Click to expand...
The Catholic Bible doesn’t have extra books. The books were part of the Church tradition since the beginning. Orthodox Bibles tend to have even more books. Luther took them out because he had this idea that only books accepted by Jews could be Inspired. if your friend has a problem with that, remind he or she that Luther wanted to take four books out of the New Testament as well; James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Catholic Bibles include:
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4–16:24)
Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24–90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Orthodox Bibles aren’t as formal in Canon as Catholics but include all books accepted by Catholics and also :
1 Esdras( 3 Esdras in appendix to Vulgate( Ezra and Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras in Vulgate)
Psalm 151
Prayer of Manasseh( in appendix to Vulgate)
3 Maccabees
2 Esdras ( in appendix to Vulgate as 4 Esdras)
4 Maccabees
 
jas84173 said:
The Catholic Bible doesn’t have extra books. The books were part of the Church tradition since the beginning. Orthodox Bibles tend to have even more books. Luther took them out because he had this idea that only books accepted by Jews could be Inspired. if your friend has a problem with that, remind he or she that Luther wanted to take four books out of the New Testament as well; James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Catholic Bibles include:
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4–16:24)
Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24–90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Orthodox Bibles aren’t as formal in Canon as Catholics but include all books accepted by Catholics and also :
1 Esdras( 3 Esdras in appendix to Vulgate( Ezra and Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras in Vulgate)
Psalm 151
Prayer of Manasseh( in appendix to Vulgate)
3 Maccabees
2 Esdras ( in appendix to Vulgate as 4 Esdras)
4 Maccabees
Click to expand...
I didn’t realize Luther wanted to remove 4 books from the New Testament as well. I will
tell her that the next time we have a theological discussion. I wonder what made Luther change his mind.
 
7_Sorrows said:
The scripture is the same in both Bibles isn’t it other than the Catholic Bible has extra books? Are there any words omitted or changed in the KJV?
I can assure you that she owns and reads the King James without the
Apocrypha.
I do understand “sola scriptura” and the authority the Bible holds for her, but I get the feeling she would almost be afraid to open a Catholic Bible or read it because it holds
untruths.
I just wonder what Baptists are taught about Catholics.

Protestants don’t seem very educated in how the Catholic church influenced civilization through the years.
Click to expand...
G. K. Chesterton wrote that the modern bible translators may have more knowledge of Hebrew and Greek than the translators of the KJV, but the KJV translators had far better knowledge of the English language. The language is often poetic, majestic, and **memorable **- it’s no secret why so much of the phrases have become permanent fixtures in our culture, while most modern Catholic and Protestant translations sound like they came out of a word processor.

The advantage of the KJV is that it is a **fixed ********translation ******- it has not been modified to fit new advances in scholarship (some of which are temporary) or political agendas that influence some modern bible translations.

It is hard to make a general statement about Baptists, because there is such a wide variation. Based on the few I that I know, and many I read about, Baptists who still use the KJV have likely been told some suspicious things about Catholics. But they also may be - now - more alarmed by the drift by many evangelicals away from Biblical values on many issues. KJV readers may be the type that, in 2017, are more understanding of the value of “permanence” in Catholicism than they ever were before. Every time a Baptist congregation, like one in my city, decides to embrace legal abortion and same sex marriage, that is one more nail driven into sola scriptura.

The man who still thinks the pope may be the anti-Christ based on (false) literal interpretation of a **fixed **bible translation may be closer to Catholicism than the Protestant man who gladly welcomes Catholicism (and a lot of other things). A fixed bible translation means he is open to change, because he values the bible over his opinions. The man who wants his bible to be flexible is not really open to change.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I didn’t realize Luther wanted to remove 4 books from the New Testament as well. I will
tell her that the next time we have a theological discussion. I wonder what made Luther change his mind.
Click to expand...
People surrounding him advised him not too.
Here’s a good link
cogwriter.com/news/church-history/martin-luther-changed-andor-discounted-18-books-of-the-bible/
He also wanted to take more books out of the Old Testament, even books in the Hebrew Bible. The guy along with John Calvin are heretics really.
 
commenter said:
G. K. Chesterton wrote that the modern bible translators may have more knowledge of Hebrew and Greek than the translators of the KJV, but the KJV translators had far better knowledge of the English language. The language is often poetic, majestic, and **memorable **- it’s no secret why so much of the phrases have become permanent fixtures in our culture, while most modern Catholic and Protestant translations sound like they came out of a word processor.

The advantage of the KJV is that it is a **fixed ********translation ******- it has not been modified to fit new advances in scholarship (some of which are temporary) or political agendas that influence some modern bible translations.

It is hard to make a general statement about Baptists, because there is such a wide variation. Based on the few I that I know, and many I read about, Baptists who still use the KJV have likely been told some suspicious things about Catholics. But they also may be - now - more alarmed by the drift by many evangelicals away from Biblical values on many issues. KJV readers may be the type that, in 2017, are more understanding of the value of “permanence” in Catholicism than they ever were before. Every time a Baptist congregation, like one in my city, decides to embrace legal abortion and same sex marriage, that is one more nail driven into sola scriptura.

The man who still thinks the pope may be the anti-Christ based on (false) literal interpretation of a **fixed **bible translation may be closer to Catholicism than the Protestant man who gladly welcomes Catholicism (and a lot of other things). A fixed bible translation means he is open to change, because he values the bible over his opinions. The man who wants his bible to be flexible is not really open to change.
Click to expand...
I can’t remember the type of Baptist she is. Your post makes a lot of sense though.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I didn’t realize Luther wanted to remove 4 books from the New Testament as well. I will
tell her that the next time we have a theological discussion. I wonder what made Luther change his mind.
Click to expand...
His fellow protestors would not have it, he actually called James “the epistle of straw” and he added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28 which he said he could do by his own authority, I’m not sure when they actually changed it back to the real translation. However if she is in any way educated about these matters it won’t make much of a difference. Baptists are an offshoot of the Calvinist movement not Luther. Yet it may begin to show her the error of Protestantism. Anyway, many of them also believe in pre-destination as Calvin did, lol, Calvin actually compared the relationship between God and man like a man (God) holding a spider (humans) over a fire trying to figure out whether to throw it in or not. To many baptists it matters not what you do in this life, “once saved, always saved” you could become hitler after you were “saved” and still make it to heaven.

I went to a Baptist church for many years, look into the early church, I think the best way to talk to baptists is to walk them through history. It provides a logical and religious view that cannot be ignored.

Ask her what the first church was called, then show her our ancient writings in which the early Christians called themselves Catholic, let her tell you when the Church became obsolete and ask what gave the Protestants the right to break away.

Mention that when St. Paul had an argument with St Peter he did not break away from the Church and make his own, he stuck with Christ’s only true Church and showed St Peter the errors of his ways. Show her the earliest writings where even during the time of the Apostles people believed in the true and actual body and blood of Jesus. Mention that St. Lucy was one of our early martyrs, and also that Catholics don’t have to pray to the Saints, they can if they choose to. The Saints and the Blessed Mother were my biggest obstacles to the Catholic Church but with much time, patience and prayer I am now where I am…
 
USMC_Convert said:
His fellow protestors would not have it, he actually called James “the epistle of straw” and he added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28 which he said he could do by his own authority, I’m not sure when they actually changed it back to the real translation. However if she is in any way educated about these matters it won’t make much of a difference. Baptists are an offshoot of the Calvinist movement not Luther. Yet it may begin to show her the error of Protestantism. Anyway, many of them also believe in pre-destination as Calvin did, lol, Calvin actually compared the relationship between God and man like a man (God) holding a spider (humans) over a fire trying to figure out whether to throw it in or not. To many baptists it matters not what you do in this life, “once saved, always saved” you could become hitler after you were “saved” and still make it to heaven.

I went to a Baptist church for many years, look into the early church, I think the best way to talk to baptists is to walk them through history. It provides a logical and religious view that cannot be ignored.

Ask her what the first church was called, then show her our ancient writings in which the early Christians called themselves Catholic, let her tell you when the Church became obsolete and ask what gave the Protestants the right to break away.

Mention that when St. Paul had an argument with St Peter he did not break away from the Church and make his own, he stuck with Christ’s only true Church and showed St Peter the errors of his ways. Show her the earliest writings where even during the time of the Apostles people believed in the true and actual body and blood of Jesus. Mention that St. Lucy was one of our early martyrs, and also that Catholics don’t have to pray to the Saints, they can if they choose to. The Saints and the Blessed Mother were my biggest obstacles to the Catholic Church but with much time, patience and prayer I am now where I am…
Click to expand...
Thank you for your sage advice. It sounds like you had a lot of experience on your journey to the Catholic church and have done a lot of study.
I did explain how St. Lucy was an early martyr, but that did not seem to impress her.
My friend’s first cataract surgery was a success and she will have the second one in two weeks. So I think St. Lucy heard my prayers and God answered them.
I guess it bothers me that she thinks it is superstition.
I don’t think Baptists believe in the communion of saints. I don’t know if they profess
the Apostle’s Creed or Nicene Creed like some other protestant churches do, but I think they might not.
 
You could also let her know that the wording of her beloved King James version is extremely similar to the Douay-Rheims.
 
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