Explaining Free Will To A Calvinist

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yinandyang

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I would like to request the assistance of my Catholic brothers and sisters in the faith, with regards to trying to better understand and explain the Church’s teachings on free will, in relation to predestination.

First, let me start out by saying that I believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and also the fullness of truth that comes to us from the infallable teachings of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

That being said, recently I have been in discussions with some friends of mine who believe in Calvinistic predestination, which is the belief that man, ultimately, has no say or choice in regards to his own salvation. It is God who makes this decision as to who will go to heaven and who will go to hell when they die. In other words, there are certain people whom God has predestined to go to hell, and there is nothing they could ever do to change their final, eternal, destination.

This would, for all intensive purposes, make God a source of evil, and is very much in contrast with Catholic theology, as the Catechism plainly states:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619

618 Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent
(1547):1567.

619 ⇒ 2 Pet 3:9.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

However, in these recent discussions with followers of John Calvin’s teachings, there have been numerous Scriptural verses that have been brought to my attention, which our seperated brethren use to try and support their beliefs. I have, unfortunately, had some difficulty in explaining these verses in light of the truth that God has, in fact, given us free will in regards to our salvation. I would like to humbly submit these verses below and ask for guidance and help in formulating good responses and interpretations of these parts of Sacred Scripture which coincide with the Magesterium’s infallable teachings:

Predestination:

John 15:16
John 15:19
Romans 8:29-30
Romans 9:13-24
Romans 16:13
Ephesians 1:4-5
Ephesians 1:11
2 Thessalonnians 2:13
James 2:5
1 Peter 2:9
Revelation 17:14

The Elect:

Matthew 24:22
Matthew 24:24
Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:20
Mark 13:22
Mark 13:27
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:33
Colossians 3:12
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
2 John 1:1
2 John 1:13

I have been able to come up with some basic arguments and explanations to these verses, as well as to the whole theory of Calvinistic predestination. However, I feel that deeper theological arguments are needed in order to more fully explain the truth to my Protestant brothers and sisters.

I’ve tried to explain to them that since God is outside of time and space, He can see the entire history of humanity and the universe, past, present, and future. Thus, God can know whether or not we, as individuals, will die in a state of sanctifying grace so as to be able to enter into the eternal beatitude of heaven with the Holy Trinity, the blessed Virgin Mary, and all the angels and saints who have served God throughout the ages, without violating our free will.

I have also tried to point out that it is, in fact, God who first chooses us to come to Him and be one of His followers, and that we could never come to God on our own, without His grace first calling us and putting in us the desire and the need for His forgiveness and for us to become His disciples. I’m careful to include the fact that we, as individuals made in God’s image, are given the free will to either accept or reject this calling.

(Continued in next post)
 
(Continued from previous post)

This can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

395 ⇒ Acts 4:27-28; cf. ⇒ Ps 2:1-2.

396 Cf. ⇒ Mt 26:54; ⇒ Jn 18:36; ⇒ 19:11; ⇒ Acts 3:17-18.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1O.HTM

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

42 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM

2001 **The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”**50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901.

51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264.

52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13, 36, 51: PL 32, 868; cf. ⇒ Gen 1:31.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM

Also, I have been able to find some Biblical verses that support the teaching that man does have free will and that our Lord did, in fact, die for the sins of the entire world, being a propitiation for the sins of believers and non-believers alike. I would like to submit below these verses of Sacred Scripture as well:

Free Will:

John 3:16
1 Timothy 2:3-6
1 Timothy 4:10
1 John 2:2
2 Peter 3:9

I would ask that if there is anyone who knows of any other verses, or explanations, which would pertain to supporting the notion of free will with regards to mankind’s salvation, that they include them in a future post.

Thank you in advance for your comments and assistance.

May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.

YinandYang
 
Good effort Brother! 👍

I have never convinced a Calvinist through Scripture Alone that they have Predestination wrong, and neither have I ever deeply convinced a Calvinist that Scripture Alone is the wrong approach by using Scripture Alone. LOL

You might try just basic reason. If they have children or a good relationship with their wife, you might just point out the fact that God makes NO ONE love Him, just as we cannot make other people love. Love is always freely given and freely received and God is Love.

If they are open to the Catholic Cannon you might ridicule precisely why they are missing seven books and then point out Sirach 15:14-17 . . . 20;

“When God, in the beginning, created man, He made him subject to His own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do His will. There are set before you fire and water, to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. . . . No man does He command to sin, to none does He give strength for lies.”
 
Here are three verses from Luke which clearly show that the Pharisees and lawyers chose to reject God’s plan - an exercise of free will: Luke 7:28-30 “I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” (When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

Now, I would fully expect some Calvinist to twist this into another meaning, since “purpose” is not precisely synonymous with “destiny” or some such folderol. The intent of Luke here is what is important, since Jesus spoke these words in Aramaic. Let us remember that the Aramaic was then translated into Greek, then Latin, then middle English, then into various permutations of modern English. Precision is long gone from much of scripture, so the inspired author’s intent must be examined.

Take any verse from scripture - the shorter the better and run it through one of the online language translators into four or five different languages and the result will be nebulous and subject to wide fluctuations in interpretation.
 
I heard a well-known Catholic apologist explain it this way. In the tone of his voice, he was using these terms and definitions as if they were well-defined. That is to say, not his off-the-cuff attempt to give an analogy.
There are two types of predestination- Single Predestination and Double Predestination.
Single Predestination- God wills all men to be saved. God knows everything, so he already knows who will be saved. In that sense, each person’s ultimate outcome is predestined.

Double Predestination - Starts with Single Predestination, but extends it to believe that an individual is not in control of his outcome.

Calvinists believe in Double Predestination. Catholics believe in Single Predestination.

We throw the word “love” around in our language too much. “I love that TV show.” “I love ice cream.” Even “I love my dog.” Recall that the Greek work for God’s love for us, and our “Godly love” for others is “agape”, which Jerome translated as “caritas” (charity, or better yet- mercy).

Here’s a quote that I use in my CCD class: You can’t love something that can’t love you back. Robots can’t love.

The Catholic position is the only tenable one based on a God of love. If we must choose to love God, then He must give us the ability to reject His love and honor that. That is free will.

Now go back through your Bible and specifically read the word “agape” in place of love. It’s all over the place. Here’s one example. “A new commandment I give unto you, That you agape one another; as I have agaped you.”

Blessings,

Fred
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church: “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace….” (CCC, n. 600).

In Catholic teaching, the definitions of predestination and of grace are inseparable from the concept of free will.

God’s prevenient grace makes our will truly free and truly able to choose, by the deeds of our lives, Heaven or Hell. God’s subsequent grace humbly submits to the choice of our free will. Grace frees the will to choose good or evil, and grace assists the free will whenever it chooses the goods that lead to eternal life. But grace is not grace apart from free will.

Predestination has three components: the eternal knowledge of God, the grace of God, and our free will. No one is predestined to Heaven or to Hell apart from all three concepts.
 
yinandyang said:
I would like to request the assistance of my Catholic brothers and sisters in the faith, with regards to trying to better understand and explain the Church’s teachings on free will, in relation to predestination.

First, let me start out by saying that I believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and also the fullness of truth that comes to us from the infallable teachings of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

That being said, recently I have been in discussions with some friends of mine who believe in Calvinistic predestination, which is the belief that man, ultimately, has no say or choice in regards to his own salvation. It is God who makes this decision as to who will go to heaven and who will go to hell when they die. In other words, there are certain people whom God has predestined to go to hell, and there is nothing they could ever do to change their final, eternal, destination.

This would, for all intensive purposes, make God a source of evil
Click to expand...
My atheist friend once said, “If God existed, I would hate that bstrd with all my might.”

Well, after learning about Calvinist theology, I tend to agree with him. It turns the Gospel, not into good news, but bad news! Calvin’s theology says you can know for certain if you are saved in this life. Conversely, that implies you can also know for certain if you are not. For an atheist, to find out that you are going to roast forever after you die, instead of just going into nonexistence, is certainly not good news!

Probably most people are among the reprobate; therefore for most people, the gospel is bad news.

Suppose there were a tribe of pagans somewhere, and they believed in a god that created people, and then picked some, arbitrarily, to share bliss with him, but most he would throw into the fire for eternity. And that’s how he glorifyied himself. Wouldn’t we think that was a monstrous god? Wouldn’t we think that was a horrible way to believe? Wouldn’t we be glad we had a loving, Christian God? But, we don’t, after all. Beacuse that’s what Calvinists believe! That’s what Calvin and Reformed theology have turned the Christian God into! (With help from St Augustine, of course.)

Ask Calvinist believers if they consider themselves to be among the elect, or among the reprobate. I suppose all of them will think themselves to be of the elect. That’s good news for them, naturally. And it’s also quite an ego boost, to think themselves elect when so many others aren’t. I think that’s the appeal of Calvin’s theology: an ego boost to its believers. A pleasant head trip for themselves.

But ask them if it is also possible to think yourself to be among the saved, when actually you are not? Doesn’t that create an anxiety to wonder if you really have true saving faith?
(Calvin does allow for this possibility.)

So, that is another aspect of this monstrous god of Calvin. He also plays mind games with us in this life! Not only does he roast most of us after we die, but he plays with our heads first, as well!
 
If it is already decided if we are damned or saved, and nothing we can do about it, I wonder what the point is of going to church, learning about Jesus, reading the bible, etc? All our Christian activity is to no purpose, because it has no affect on our salvation.

Why did Jesus preach? Why do present day preachers preach? They obviously preach for no reason…
 
You might read the debates of Martin Luther and Erasmus on Free Will.
 
As heresies go, it’s all in the family. Calvinist Double Predestination and Eternal Security/“Once Saved Always Saved” are like father and son, so what works against the son works well against the father:

Mt 24:13 - If you persevere to the end, you will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in God’s kindness, or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - Paul drives his body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those who think they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ = fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - you’ll reign with Christ if you hold out to the end
Heb 6:4-6 - some have fallen away and can’t share in the Holy Spirit
Heb 10:26-27 - mortal sin after receiving truth = no sacrifice for sins

Try running the Calvinist through these verses, and then ask him/her, why is such perseverance necessary if one is “elected” to salvation?

Next, prove to the Calvinist that Jesus died for everyone, not only the “elect,” by using the following:

John 3:16 - God so loved THE WORLD…
1 Timothy 2:3-4 - God our Savior desires everyone to be saved
Matthew 24.14: Good news is a testimony to all nations
John 4.42,1 John 4.14: Jesus is the Savior of THE WORLD
John 12.47: Jesus came to save THE WORLD
John 17.20-21: The world will be one in Christ

Have the Calvinist put two and two together: Salvation is for everyone but it is a gift that can be thrown away. No one can snatch away the sheep from God’s hand–but they can wander away (cf Jn. 10:27-28)
 
bah you people are gay and sit through walls of text being a bad catholic mfer

while i go out and help people

so sit down and enjoy not helpin people, u shall burn in hell
 
Actually, GodIsWin, we (the Catholics) are trying to convince the Calvinists that people have free will and that their salvation depends on how they use this free will–that they need to go out and help people because that is what Jesus told us to do. So in that sense, you agree with us.

The walls of text you are complaining about are mostly Holy Scripture. We (Catholic and Calvinist alike) respect the Bible as the Word of God and I hope you agree with that as well.
 
mackbrislawn said:
If it is already decided if we are damned or saved, and nothing we can do about it, I wonder what the point is of going to church, learning about Jesus, reading the bible, etc? All our Christian activity is to no purpose, because it has no affect on our salvation.

Why did Jesus preach? Why do present day preachers preach? They obviously preach for no reason…
Click to expand...
Funny line of reasoning, isn’t it? Without free will, and the subsequent improper exercise of it, how could the Pharisees have rejected God’s purpose for them? To reject something means one first must consider it. I note that scripture does not indicate that God designed them to reject His plan.
 
You touch on a very deep mystery: reconciling predestination and free choice. All that I say is in my own humble opinion; and I pray God lead me not into any error. If I say anything contrary to the truth, I pray it is accounted to my ignorance.

I think, first of all, it is unwise to debate Calvinists on predestination, mainly because it’s one of those topics which is intrinsically divisive. That is, no matter who is debating it - be they even Catholics among themselves - it is a rarity you’ll end in agreement. There are a few things however that you, as a Catholic, ought to know. These are what I would call traditional Catholic principles:
  • No person, of himself, deserves grace, eternal life, or love from God.
  • God does not command the impossible.
  • God’s will is the cause of all things, since it is determined in itself by nothing but what is in itself.
  • It is also, by the way, de fide dogma that no man in this life can know with the absolute certainty of divine faith that he has received grace to merit everlasting life, unless he is given some private revelation.
 
continued…

When discussing predestination, it is important to really flesh out what is meant by “free will.” Do we mean that we are free to desire whatever we desire? I would think not, for no person is free to desire, say, happiness. Do we mean rather free choice? That is, in the Thomistic sense, do we have a free potentiality for making a certain action? In other words, do we have the potential of standing, or taking a walk, or eating, etc.? We should here say that yes, we really do have this potential, although we may never in fact stand, walk, etc. it is nevertheless true that we have the power of doing so or the potential.

Now, the Catholic doctrine really terminates in this mystery: all humans possess the power to accept the grace of God unto salvation. Yet not all possess the act of actually accepting it. Thomists will say that there are two graces given to man: one which is infallibly efficacious, and one which is infallibly sufficient. The former gives the act. The latter gives the power to act. Yet, they will say, since nothing can move from potency to act unless moved by the divine will, no agent which is not given efficient grace ever attains salvation. Rather, such a one is merely potentially recepient, but, due to God’s will, is allowed to remain as it is and thereby merit damnation. It would seem, at first sight, that this makes God the cause of sin. It would seem that, since he does not give efficient grace to all, he thereby *causes * those who do not receive it to sin, and that he also doesn’t really give them the power to accept efficacious grace. The Thomists, I think rightly, say two things here. a) The fact that God does not grant grace, is not therefore the cause of sin, even if grace if given does indeed prevent sin; the lack of grace is not then the cause of sin. Rather, the creature sins, it is true because it lacks grace, yet nevertheless this lack is not a cause. The creature sinning is the cause. b) In order for there to exist a power to act, it is not necessary for the power to actually be in act. For example, I possess the power of sight while I am sleeping or the power of speech while I am silent. It is not necessary, then, for me to be in act in order to possess actual power. This, the Thomists would say, is true also for a creature given sufficient grace. It is really true that it possesses the power for making a salutory act of repentence; nevertheless, it never in fact does exercise that power. The objectors to Thomism at this point would say that it is not in the creatures ability, in itself, to be in either potency to act toward salvation, or in the very act itself. In other words, the creature, in its very nature, cannot pass from one to the other on its own, but must be so moved by God. The Thomists would agree here, because, if we say that man has can pass from potential to act without God, we are effectively attributing to man a sort of divine causality. That is, we would be saying that he has, as part of his nature, actuality, since he can act in and of himself without being moved. In other words, we would be saying that man is or can be an uncaused cause, or pure act, or, to put it simply, God. This the Thomists find inadmissable. In all honesty I tend to side with them.

This is a very great mystery, and yet, St. Thomas himself taught that such things neither impugn the justice and goodness of God, nor deprive man of free choice. After all, those who never pass from potency to act are actually in their really and trulye set against goodness. They really do, and freely, love the darkness and hate the light. It is true that, were God to turn them, they would freely come to him, yet his not turning is not the cause of their loving darkness. Rather, they really, of themselves, hate God and Christ. Does this make God the cause of their hatred? No. St. Thomas uses the metphor that though the power of motion in a limping man causes him to limp, it is not the moving power which causes limping, but rather the curvature of the leg itself. “The effect of the deficient secondary cause is reduced to the first non-deficient cause as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is not caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.”

The real question is, why does God show grace to one man and not another? Yet the answer to this is found in his will alone, which is unsearchable. Yet we must always maintain that his distribution of grace is due to the order of the goodness of the universe as a whole. St. Thomas explains this in many examples, such as, when he gives the example of a builder, who, wanting to build a particular house, places certain stones at the bottom, and others at the top, as is fitting to the perfection of the house. So it is in the case of the universe. In order to display his almighty goodness, mercy, and justice most perfectly, God wills to display his effects in a manner fittingly reflective of his nature. To understand why he has ordered the universe in such a way - to see its utter and unfathomable harmony - we would have to contemplate the universe as God himself does. Such contemplation is had by those who see God as he is in the beatific vision. To us, we must refer all things to his hidden will, and have trust that God our father, in his infinite wisdom, orders all things sweetly, and that, in eternity, if we are so graced, we shall see the perfect reason for everything.
 
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