Explaining Mary to non-Catholic Christians

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My fellow Catholic brothers and sisters,

Please forgive me if this has already been extensively discussed, and if it has, maybe you could kindly point me to those threads I can’t seem to find tonight.

I’m in the “reversion process” anyway, long story short, that’s what I’m currently considering myself. A cradle Catholic who went away for 20 years and is now longing to come home but not so easy getting married to a fellow strong Christian woman at the pinnacle of my non-Catholic life.

Her biggest issue with Catholicism seems to be Our Lady. Please understand she’s had absolutely no religious upbringing whatsoever, and came to Christ in a non-Catholic setting well into adulthood a number of years before us meeting.

I’m much more devoted and acquainted with our BVM now than I ever was but am not very versed in articulating this and how it’s Biblical sound. Of course, she has the common misconception that we elevate Mary to the God level or replace Jesus with her to get to our Father in heaven.

I am going to do more research and have already said all I know along the lines of she doesn’t take the place of Jesus to the Father it’s more she helps us get to Jesus and it’s not so much we pray to her but we ask her to pray for us. I touched on how like faith itself often needs to be experienced, and about the (Church approved) apparitions, inferring I believe in them, which I absolutely do.

Mary is actually the most surprising part of my reversion, how real she is, how gracious, how helpful! I had no idea I could actually experience this until the past few years on my way home. I’m just quite challenged how to explain it to others especially my strongly Bible-based wife. For me, learning about the apparitions and sheer experience by saying the rosary, and other Marian devotions is what brought me to where I am with her now, but that’s not so easily explained by where she’s coming from.

So, any help or advice would be appreciated other than the obvious: much prayer!

Thanks in advance everyone,
HA
 
Hi hereagain. It has been my experience that Mary is sort of the first tier objection to the communion of saints as a whole. Many protestant communities reject the Church Triumphant and Suffering and only resonate with the Church Militant. If this is the case, try to understand that from her point of view, praying to any saint is useless, not just Mary. She sort of becomes the case in point object to the whole host of saints that have preceded us. To us, they are our older brothers and sisters in Christ; to them, they are, well, just dead.

Mary was given more grace than any other of God’s creations. She is most highly honored by us because she was most highly honored by Him. Like Peter and Paul refused to be worshiped as gods, so too, the handmaid of the Lord, would not likely appreciate the suggestion that someone puts her ahead of her Son. She is the eternal Queen Mother of our Eternal King, Jesus.

I might look through the books of Kings with a list of Judah’s kings and Isreal’s kings along side. You will notice that the kings of Judah (Jesus’s lineage) maintained the position of Queen Mother within the kingdom whereas Isreal’s kings don’t mention the king’s mother. Closely examine also the behaviors (postures) that King Solomon showed Bathsheba when she entered the court to intercede on behalf of Adonias (1 Kgs 2). Note verse 17 as Adonias is pleading her intercession saying, “I pray thee to speak to king Solomon (for he cannot deny thee anything) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife.” Such is the role of the Queen Mother then and today. Hope it helps.
 
The World’s First Love
BY THE MOST REVEREND FULTON J. SHEEN, PH.D., D.D.

There is, actually, only one person in all humanity of
whom God has one picture, and in whom there is a perfect
conformity between what He wanted her to be and what she
is, and that is His Own Mother. Most of us are a minus sign,
in the sense that we do not fulfill the high hopes the Heavenly
Father has for us. But Mary is the equal sign. The Ideal that
God had of her, that she is, and in the flesh. The model and
the copy are perfect; she is all that was foreseen, planned,
and dreamed. The melody of her life is played, just as it was
written. Mary was thought, conceived, and planned as the
equal sign between ideal and history, thought and reality,
hope and realization.

Peace
 
One can argue ad infinitum about Our Lady to a non-Catholic.

It will fall on deaf ears.

Let Mary herself do the talking. Pray for Our Lady to come to her, to appear in her heart.

Her belief will soar beyond words.
 
hereagain said:
My fellow Catholic brothers and sisters,

Please forgive me if this has already been extensively discussed, and if it has, maybe you could kindly point me to those threads I can’t seem to find tonight.

I’m in the “reversion process” anyway, long story short, that’s what I’m currently considering myself. A cradle Catholic who went away for 20 years and is now longing to come home but not so easy getting married to a fellow strong Christian woman at the pinnacle of my non-Catholic life.

Her biggest issue with Catholicism seems to be Our Lady. Please understand she’s had absolutely no religious upbringing whatsoever, and came to Christ in a non-Catholic setting well into adulthood a number of years before us meeting.

I’m much more devoted and acquainted with our BVM now than I ever was but am not very versed in articulating this and how it’s Biblical sound. Of course, she has the common misconception that we elevate Mary to the God level or replace Jesus with her to get to our Father in heaven.

I am going to do more research and have already said all I know along the lines of she doesn’t take the place of Jesus to the Father it’s more she helps us get to Jesus and it’s not so much we pray to her but we ask her to pray for us. I touched on how like faith itself often needs to be experienced, and about the (Church approved) apparitions, inferring I believe in them, which I absolutely do.

Mary is actually the most surprising part of my reversion, how real she is, how gracious, how helpful! I had no idea I could actually experience this until the past few years on my way home. I’m just quite challenged how to explain it to others especially my strongly Bible-based wife. For me, learning about the apparitions and sheer experience by saying the rosary, and other Marian devotions is what brought me to where I am with her now, but that’s not so easily explained by where she’s coming from.

So, any help or advice would be appreciated other than the obvious: much prayer!

Thanks in advance everyone,
HA
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Probably the best explanation for Mary is she is the most devoted evangelist ever for the Lord. Rev. Billy Graham was not the only evangelist to get big crowds. The Holy Mother has received larger ones. Her only duty is to lead us to Her Son. She fulfills this vocation to perfection. We can learn much from her how to be an effective evangelist. I am somewhat surprised that Protestants do not see Mary as an effective evangelist. May be the Church both Catholic and Eastern need to define Mary’s role better as an evangelist so that it will help Protestants understand something about her they can relate too. In fact the best thing about Mary is she is the Church enclosed within a person. The Church is in fact has a Marian structure and function for both the Church and Mary do the same thing to lead us into the very life of Jesus Christ. They both give us Jesus. So the Church in essence can learn to function as a better Church by learning it from Mary, imitating her life and virtues.
 
Does she like to read?

One book of a great many good ones, comes to mind. It’s called The Worlds First Love by Fullton Sheen. (published by Ignatius Press)

Also, you might be surprised if you simply prayed the rosary for your wife and said nothing to her. 👍

God Bless!
 
Thanks everyone! I appreciate the speedy and helpful responses. Hopefully, this thread will stay open awhile as I need all the help I can get here.

Interesting how this started last night-we were in a restaurant and some zealous non-Catholic Christians were in there and one of them said how they used to be Catholic and they were talking about Mary and how Catholics are “deceived”. I was deeply offended, although I probably shouldn’t have been as in my former ignorance I used to think things like that too. This lead into the recent discussion about Our Lady with my wife.

Of all the things mentioned, I think prayer will indeed be the most helpful. With my Mrs. it’s a matter of showing things to her in the Bible that is pretty much what she needs to convince her of anything faith based. However, she also realizes the interpretation aspect which is helpful, but as we know, there’s really not a whole lot about her in the scriptures compared to what we know about her. I even mentioned for me it’s the Church approved apparitions that I inferred I believe in. Much of this is what my beliefs in Our Lady are based on and more so the amazement of how real she is in my life! Ultimately, it’s all a matter of personal faith, isn’t it? I know nobody can change or modify the beliefs of others either. Yet, I’d love to be able to articulate my faith better especially in the face of common misconceptions of the Catholic faith, which is about all there is in non-Catholic Christian religions, but if that weren’t the case, they might also be Catholic!
Does she like to read?
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One book of a great many good ones, comes to mind. It’s called The Worlds First Love by Fullton Sheen. (published by Ignatius Press)
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She does! Thank you for this resource idea.
Also, you might be surprised if you simply prayed the rosary for your wife and said nothing to her.
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This is probably the best course of action. I’m working on it-just hard for me to say nothing when Mary’s being dissed in public and she (Mary) is standing right next to me!
May be the Church both Catholic and Eastern need to define Mary’s role better as an evangelist so that it will help Protestants understand something about her they can relate too.
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chimo, this is great stuff and I’m very happy an Orthodox Christian chimed in here. That’s one of the points I make and did w/my wife how the Orthodox reverence the BVM like Catholics do which were split long before the Protestant Reformation and even longer before the 1800s when some key Marian proclamations were made by the Pope.

That is something else the non-Catholic Christians, those who actually read some church history, tend to misunderstand, that the Marian doctrines were invented in the 1800s when they were actually simply officially proclaimed that had been believed the whole time.
I might look through the books of Kings with a list of Judah’s kings and Isreal’s kings along side. You will notice that the kings of Judah (Jesus’s lineage) maintained the position of Queen Mother within the kingdom whereas Isreal’s kings don’t mention the king’s mother. Closely examine also the behaviors (postures) that King Solomon showed Bathsheba when she entered the court to intercede on behalf of Adonias (1 Kgs 2). Note verse 17 as Adonias is pleading her intercession saying, “I pray thee to speak to king Solomon (for he cannot deny thee anything) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife.” Such is the role of the Queen Mother then and today. Hope it helps.
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This is great info about Kings-I didn’t realize that. Thanks!
One can argue ad infinitum about Our Lady to a non-Catholic.
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It will fall on deaf ears.
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Let Mary herself do the talking. Pray for Our Lady to come to her, to appear in her heart.
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Her belief will soar beyond words.
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Yes, arguing never works. I’ll never forget my Catholic Dad’s reaction when I told him many years ago I was then going to a non-demon church. He said he wouldn’t argue with me because every man has a right to their own religion. Dad was a very strong Catholic his entire life. It was his non-judgemental mature reaction that had impressed me. It’s true, in the end, we can’t make anybody believe anything.
I have more praying to do!

Btw, said many Hail Mary’s for that fellow while in the restaurant.

Thanks again everyone, and any prayer support for my checkered church past healing is also appreciated.

HA
 
As a Protestant, obviously I never had devotion to the Blessed Mother. We weren’t even taught that Mary made a conscious decision out of her own free will to be the Mother of God. There’s a “Jesus and me, me and Jesus” mentality in Protestantism, and perhaps the Holy Spirit in more charismatic churches. (Obviously, God the Father is always in mind.)

It has been difficult for me understanding hyperdulia and why certain pious practices are not idolatry even if it appears to give Mary credit what is due to God.

In a certain section of The Dialogue (written by St. Catherine of Siena, Doctor of the Church), in a private revelation, God describes the Holy Trinity (insofar as it was helpful in that particular situation to reveal to the saint) as 3: Jesus being the Heavenly Food, the Father being the Table on which the Food is set, and the Holy Spirit being the Waiter whose hands serve the Food to us.

If that is the case, perhaps the Blessed Mother is like a hostess who guides people to the Table of Salvation.

Titles like “Mediatrix of All Graces” still make me pause a bit, and I can only imagine what Protestants think of that title, but I think perhaps spiritual truth is being revealed more to us as humanity gets older. She is not the source of grace, but through a spiritual mechanism not entirely known to us, she delivers divine grace to us.

(Also in The Dialogue I think, it is said that Mary was not recorded much in the Gospel to increase her humility.)
 
Yes, very hard to explain, hence my thread here. Thanks for the reply, you also have good insights.

Another thing that my wife mentioned yesterday is how Catholics “pray to the saints” to which I probably erroneously responded, we don’t pray TO them but more we ask them to pray for us. Well, I was reading in one of my devotional books before and saw a lot of Novenas TO various saints, so I suppose we do. I don’t know how to explain the difference between that and praying to God and as one who’s on the reversion road here, I’m not even sure I understand it myself!

I just know it’s real-Mary is real, the saints are real and their prayers and intercessions do help. I know the whole Protestant mentality all too well as I had it myself over 20 years with the Jesus and me idea.

I did pray a rosary for her earlier today and felt the Blessed Mother tell me to not change her! Did she really say this to me? I believe she did. How can I know?

Well, just thinking out loud here I suppose. Like faith itself it’s not so much explaining as experiencing.

Peace,
HA
 
People might ask, “How do saints even hear us?”

I suppose we can reply, “It is by God that they can hear us from heaven, not because of their own ability. When we speak, do we tell our neurons how to process the auditory information? With tangible senses, we perceive not because it is our own ability, but because God granted such abilities to our physical bodies.”

The desire to understand everything with our senses and only then believing in it seems to go against faith.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, Who is God Incarnate. She is no ordinary human because God created her to be that way. Since this honor is due to her relation to her Son, I think Protestants, who rightly worship Jesus, would reflect on this more if given the opportunity.
 
The Catholic Answers shop has several CDs, books, and DVDs on the topic of Mary, also on the topic of Saints. You may wish to start there, for yourself, first, then perhaps share some of the material with your wife.

Catholic Lighthouse Media also offers several CD talks on the subject of Mary. This isn’t a plug so much for what they do, as much as it’s testimony of how effective the talks are over time. You should be able to find them at your local parish in a small kiosk, but if not, they have a website where you can order them in CD form or MP3.

Over the years I have kept several of them in my car, a few at my office, some in different rooms in the house. It’s nice to have them handy when the moment strikes to give them a good listen. This happens for me after having conversed with friends or coworkers throughout a day where certain faith topics come up. It is so helpful to be able to listen to the talks over and over until the message takes hold. I give them to others as well because I just can’t summarize the messages as well as the speakers can deliver them. They are barely an hour long. Really easy to consume.

Here are some titles which come to mind which may help you with your wife. Keep them handy, pop one in the stereo of the car on your next road trip, leave them in a reachable place should she wish to re-listen at her own pace. Speak little, for there’s really no need to. Each talk stands alone and kind of leaves the listener in that pondering state which opens them up to the Holy Spirit.

Meet Your Mother, by Mark Miravalle
The Virgin Mary Revealed Through Scripture, by Dr. Scott Hahn
Mary: Handmaid of the Lord, by Blessed Mother Teresa
There’s even one by Mike Sweeney called The Four Pillars of Marian Spirituality
 
Lutherans love the Theotokos, so if (for some reason) your wife likes Luther you can use this as a bridge to get her to appreciate the BVM.

Perhaps this would help:

From here: onbehalfofall.org/martin-luther-on-mary-as-theotokos/

If everything that we are to believe were in the Old Testament, what need would there be of the New? Why should Christ have had to come to earth to teach us? In this way I could also say: Baptism is nothing; the sending of the Holy Spirit is nothing; that the mother of God is Mary is nothing; in short, no article of the Christian faith would stand.

or

“[L]et no one presume to perform such things by his own power, but humbly ask God to create and preserve such faith in and such understanding of his holy sacraments in him. He must practice awe and humility in all this, lest he ascribe these works to himself instead of allowing God the glory. To this end he must call upon the holy angels, particularly his own angel, the Mother of God, and all the apostles and saints, especially since God has granted him exceptional zeal for this.”

There’s plenty of other examples, but you get the idea.
 
Very interesting-thanks for the link. I didn’t even know that about Luther til I started this thread. My Mrs. isn’t versed at all in church history which why her views are what they are, but I have a “staunch Lutheran” friend who’s quite opposed to Our Lady. Again, historical ignorance which is the basis of many false beliefs, imho!

Thanks!
HA
 
hereagain said:
Very interesting-thanks for the link. I didn’t even know that about Luther til I started this thread. My Mrs. isn’t versed at all in church history which why her views are what they are, but I have a “staunch Lutheran” friend who’s quite opposed to Our Lady. Again, historical ignorance which is the basis of many false beliefs, imho!

Thanks!
HA
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I hope it helps… here’s another link to Lutheran Marion theology:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Marian_theology

If you’re feeling frisky, remind your Lutheran friend that Lutherans hold that the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity of Mary are pious beliefs.

Sadly, there are many Lutherans that are unaware of this - my hunch it that it’s a hold-over from the anti-Catholic phase we went through in the early 20th century.

You’re in our families prayers!
 
thank you! Yeah, I’ll save that info for future reference w/my Lutheran friend. It’s very interesting to learn this about Luther.
 
Another book to consider is “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis DeMontforte. It walks through all the reasons for Mary’s special status.
 
In Genesis, the Gospel predicts “The woman and the child will crush on the head of Satan” [and of course to all evils]. This woman is Holy Mary. The Eternal Father appointed Holy Mother Mary to defeat Satan. Loyalty to God’s prediction is the perfection.

The compliments of the Trinity was first addressed by St Gabriel to Mother Mary, and also the Incarnation which Immaculate Concept was declared.
Luke: And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Mathew:
“For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, sister and mother.”
So the words of brother or mother in the bible do not mean the real blood brother or blood mother. Mother Mary did not have any other children besides of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Image of Jesus is linked with the image of Mother Mary. God’s appearance is followed by the appearance of mother Mary very close together all the time in the bible, in Jesus’ life and at all apparition sites. Holy Mother Mary is the most Holy person on earth.

In Revelation “A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant…She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” That woman is Holy Mary, mother of Jesus. Since Jesus is King in Kingdom of God or Heaven, so Mother of God is the Queen of Heaven, and also the Queen of Angels. She is the most effective supernatural power outside the Three Divine Persons.
 
Beautiful stuff everyone, thanks!

There really is a lot of reason to honour our BVM and plenty in the Bible too. It’s more a matter of people being open to the idea; wanting to believe!

Speaking of Our Lady and a bit off topic here, I’m soon planning a little personal pilgrimage to the only Church approved Marian apparition site in the United States! To me, besides the historical and scriptural evidence, I believe in the Church approved apparitions which fascinate me. Ever see “The Song Of Bernadette”? Amazing stuff-don’t see how that could be anything but genuine. Then, I recently found out St. Bernadette’s body is incorruptible! Our Lady makes our faith even deeper!

Blessings to us all,
HA
 
Initially,
  1. I would leave out the apparitions and devotions, as powerful as they may be.
  2. Start at Scripture, Tradition, the Magisterium, and especially the Catechism.
The official teaching of the Catholic Church is clear and stated in 971 of the Catechism: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship”. Significantly, “intrinsic” means we cannot do without it. It is important for the Church always to honor the Mother of God and to love her as the Mother given to us by Jesus.
CCC 487 - What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.
  1. It is very important to understand the Annunciation and the Incarnation.
God has willed to send His Grace through Mary, as He sent Jesus through her. We do not need to be aware of that mediation of hers. However when we ask God anything through her intercession it is more humble and beautiful to Him.
  1. Avoid quoting Marian Saints.
It is important to know the Truth and be able to speak it.
Some very holy Saints have written some instances that seem to honor Mary to the exclusion of Jesus, which can be mistaken if the reader is unfamiliar with the Saint.
When Mary is shared without due reference to Christ, then we are in excess. She is never equal to or more than Her Son.
What we say and how we say it always matters for we are ambassadors for Christ and a Christian bears responsibility for honoring Him and His Mother at all times and all circumstances.
We need to be very careful among those who can be easily scandalized or have very weak faith.
We should promote Marian devotion only if we can explain it well to those with whom we speak and if they are truly willing to listen.

Eventually, a child of Mary might be interested to read the section ‘Fourth principle: It is more humble to have an intermediary with Christ (paragraphs 83-86)’ in Treatise On True Devotion To The Blessed Virgin by St. Louis de Montfort
  1. It is very important to understand the relationship of Mary to the Holy Spirit.
 
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