Explaining purgatory?

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So my friend and I are texting each other talking about purgatory…she says purgatory is her biggest “issue” with the Catholic Church. I’m trying to explain it to her.

So I explained how we are not made holy on earth, so we need purgatory as a means of sanctification before heaven, because not everyone is ready for it yet.
She replied " yeah,we can never be wholly sanctified while here on earth but Jesus also imputed and imparted his righteousness to us by his grace.but i believe his atonement is enough to get us to heaven,is it not?he is powerful enough to do that,is he not?would u rather trust in his blood to get u to heaven or on purgatory?"
So I said “Well, yes, it’s the sacrafice of Jesus on which allows us into Heaven, but when we become Christians, we’re expected to change our ways, and follow Christ, and while God does give us the strenght to resist sin, we often fall, we don’t loose our sinful nature in a split second, but in heaven, there is no sin. So even if someone truly loved God and tried to follow him, yet sinned till the day they died, they would go to heaven, but something would have to be done about their sinful nature, bc nothin imperfect can enter heaven. So between death and the eternal bliss of heaven, there must be some sort of purification. A lot of Catholics(including the current pope) now believe that purgatory isn’t a place, but more like a state of being, and when you see the face of God, his love which is “like a consuming fire” simply burns out your inequities(spelling?😛 lol). So purgatory isn’t taking away from Jesus’ sacrafice, but it’s like the final step of purification before spending eternity with God& the saints&angels”
She replied with a bible verse,
"True.i agree with u bout not being entirely sanctified while on earth.but when we ask God 4 4giveness,1 John 1:9 says "He’s faithful and just to 4give u s our sins and PURIFY US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.“when God 4gives,he forgets.that’s why we ask 4giveness everyday bcuz of sins of omission & commission”
…what do I tell her? I don’t know how to respond to that -_-
 
Btw, sorry about my post being a giant wall of text, I typed it up with my cell phone.
 
btw, sorry about my post being a giant wall of text, I really didn’t want to type all of that again so I just copied and pasted the messages with my phone lol
 
Well id say start first explaining that we Catholics have 2 important sources: The Holy Bible and the Holy Apostolic Tradition. When I normally try to convince people about the Catholic faith I first start explaining out tradition. Because you find many “Bible Only” Christians these days…
Purgatory is taught in the bible but not in a direct way. Tradition is what opens our eyes about it. Once you convince your friend about our Tradition, you can give her some of these quotes about Purgatory:

St. Basil the Great (329 to 379 AD): “that the purgatorial fire may entirely feed on and devour it… It does not threaten utter ruin altogether, but it means cleansing according to the opinion of the Apostle Paul: ‘But he himself shall be saved yet as so through fire’” 1 Corinthians 3:15

St. Basil the Great (329 to 379 AD): "I consider that the active athletes of God, who have fought bravely with invisible enemies during all their life, when arrived at the end of life, shall be examined by the prince of the world, so that if they may be found to have retained either wounds after the contest, or any stains or relics of sin, they should be detained; but if they may be found without wounds and slains, as victorious and free, they would be translated by Christ to rest.”

“Origen of Alexandria (185 to about 254 AD): If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.”

St. Gregory of Nyssa: “After his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice, and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire.”
 
St. Gregory of Nyssa: “Now, to the pure, freedom from passion is that kindred state, and that in this freedom from passion blessedness consists, admits of no dispute. But as for those whose weaknesses have become inveterate, and to whom no purgation of their defilement has been applied, no mystic water, no invocation of the Divine power, no amendment by repentance, it is absolutely necessary that they should come to be in something proper to their case,—just as the furnace is the proper thing for gold alloyed with dross,—in order that, the vice which has been mixed up in them being melted away after long succeeding ages, their nature may be restored pure again to God. Since, then, there is a cleansing virtue in fire and water, they who by the mystic water have washed away the defilement of their sin have no further need of the other form of purification, while they who have not been admitted to that form of purgation must needs be purified by fire.”

St. Clement of Alexandria: “Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more – not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.”

Saint Basil the Great, Patriarch of Eastern Monasticism (329 to 379 AD): “Christ our God…(who) on this all-perfect and saving Feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hades, promising unto us who are held in bondage great hope of release from the vilenes that doth hinder us and did hinder them … send down Thy consolation… and establish their souls in the mansions of the Just; and graciously vouchsafe unto them peace and pardon; for not the dead shall praise thee, O Lord, neither shall they who are in Hell make bold to offer unto thee confession. But we who are living will bless thee, and will pray, and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls.”
 
St. Epiphanius of Salamis (315 to 403 AD): “But the prayers that are offered up for the dead are useful to them…I say that the Church, which has received that rite handed down to it from our ancestors, of necessity performs it.”

St. John Chrysostom (349–407: “Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. when the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf.”

St. John Chrysostom: “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.”

St. Ephrem (306 to 373 AD): “Instead of shedding useless tears over the grave, let them flow at prayers in church, for in these there is help and comfort for the dead as well as for the living.” And … “If the Jewish priests were able by their sacrifices to help those fallen in battle [2 Maccabees 12:38-45 ] , how much more will the priests of the Son of God by their Holy Sacrifice and prayers efface the sins of the departed!”

St. Ephrem:: “We remember those that are deceased…Then we pray for our fathers and bishops, and in general for all among us who are departed this life, believing that this will be the greatest relief to them, for whom is offered up on the holy and tremendous victim which lies on the altar.”

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (313 – 386): “Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out.”

Tertullian (200 AD): “All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hade…Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

Cyprian (200 to 258 AD): It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord. (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Lactantius Lactantius the Divine Institutes (Christian apologist of the 4th century): “The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315 to 386 AD): “Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out”
 
St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): “Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment”

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): “If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.”

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): "…As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, “They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.’ But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,’ and to those on the other side, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,’ and ‘These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,’ it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal.”
St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): “For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,–not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man’s graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another’s wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.”

St. Caesarius of Arles (470-543AD): “If we neither return thanks to God in tribulation, nor redeem sins with good works, we shall stay in the Purgatorial fire until the above-named small sins be consumed like wood, hay and stubble … But some one says: I don’t mind how long I stay there if at length I shall arrive at eternal life. Let no one say this dearest brethren, because that Purgatory fire shall be severer than any punishment that can be either thought of, or seen, or felt in this world. How can anyone know whether he is about to pass through that fire for days and months or perhaps even for years?”

St. John I (347-407 AD): “The Apostles knew full well that it works much good for the departed: for whenever all the people stand with hands raised in prayer, together with the whole assembly of the priests, and the tremendous Victim lies on the altar, should we not by our petitions in their behalf move the heart of God?”

St. John I: “You ought to hasten to his aid, not by tears, but by prayers, alms, and offerings. For not without reason has this been introduced, not in vain do we remember the dead at the sacred mysteries, approach the altar for them, and implore the Lamb Which is present, and Which takes away the sins of the world, but in order that the dead may receive some alleviation … Therefore we pray with confidence for the whole world, and remember the dead together with the martyrs and the confessors and priests. For we all constitute but one body, although one member is superior to another, and so it is possible that by prayer and sacrifice we may obtain full forgiveness for those whose names we mention.”

St. Jerome (347 - 419 AD): “…for every Mass devoutly celebrated, many souls leave Purgatory and fly to Heaven.”

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Patriarch of Alexandria: “All the tortures that one can conceive of in this world are refreshing compared with the least pain of Purgatory.”
 
Gregory the Great (590-604 AD): “Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven ‘either in this world or in the world to come’(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.”

St. Epiphanius of Salamis (315 to 403 AD): “Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty charges laid to them. And it is useful also, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily, and thus it is a reminder to do better.”
 
We have a lot of quotes from our tradition (these are just those ive found). So what you can do is try to convince your friend that the church even before the protestants existed, has always taught purgatory. Its just that it wasn’t officially defined on a much later date (you would have to google that).

If you try to explain purgatory directly from the bible itll be much harder but you can try…
This site has this tract:
catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
 
TeenageConvert said:
She replied with a bible verse,
"True.i agree with u bout not being entirely sanctified while on earth.but when we ask God 4 4giveness,1 John 1:9 says "He’s faithful and just to 4give u s our sins and PURIFY US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.“when God 4gives,he forgets.that’s why we ask 4giveness everyday bcuz of sins of omission & commission”
…what do I tell her? I don’t know how to respond to that -_-
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Well for one she is switiching the topic on hand from purgatory to salvation. I would try to steer it back to the discussion on purgatory. If you read her quoted passage it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory and is actually kind of irrelevant to your conversation.

However to help with your current situation your friend is not making a distinction between mortal and venial sins. Venial sins you can offer up to God directly for forgiveness however Mortal sins need to be confessed in order to be absolved. Why? because that is how Jesus choose to administer that particular grace.

After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).

This shows that just praying to God doesn’t forgive all sins. Otherwise what would this passage mean. Jesus authorized his apostles to forgive sins in his name as persona christi. He didn’t just say if you want your sins forgiven pray to the father but, Jesus actually gave his Apostels his authority to retain sins or not. Bear in mind it is not the priest that forgives but still God – the Priest is just persona christi.

If you read that passage your friend gave you it says Confess our sins to be purified but it neglects the “how” do you confess your sins. The passage of John 20:21-23 provides the answer as to how. You need to actually go and confess mortal sins to the Church where the are retained or not. Both passages are true but John 20 clarifies 1 John.

That is how I would answer your friend. Our faith can explain both passages. She has to ignore a passage from the bible in order to reconcile what she mistakenly believes is true.

Also, just by praying to God and asking for forgiveness no way negates purgatory because he can still forgive your sins but still require a purification for you to enter heaven. It is not either/or but is and and/also. Because guess what, if you make purgatory then you are guarantueed heaven eventually.

Now I would also mention to your friend that if someone dies in a perfect state of grace ie sinless then they would not undergo purgatory. But I would say a very very select few can achieve that (Mary is the only one that comes to mind).

Look at purgatory as a means to become whole again. An analogy would be that sin is like putting a nail into a board. The more sins the more nails. Asking for forgiveness removes those nails (forgiven) but you are still left with the hole. You need some means of filling those holes in to become complete (the purification of purgatory). And actually, getting into purgatory is a good thing because it means that eventually you will be in heaven with God. So asking God for forgiveness does remove the nails but in no way negates the necessity of purgatory. That is what Purgatory does it fills in those holes so you can join God in heaven.

Hope this makes sense.

Keep at her. It sounds like you guys are having a great discussion.

Please read these… they are short and should help you.

catholic.com/tracts/confession
catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-purgatory-a-catholic-invention-no-way
 
Chris & DKJ, Thank you! I really appreciate it!:D.
I sent her a message using some of y’alls info and stuff, but she hasn’t replied yet.
 
TeenageConvert said:
Chris & DKJ, Thank you! I really appreciate it!:D.
I sent her a message using some of y’alls info and stuff, but she hasn’t replied yet.
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No problem. Keep us posted. I am curious of what she will say as well now. It is good you are having these discussions. Keep in mind that there is nothing you friend can bring up that the Catholic Church doesn’t have an answer for. In addtion, at least from my experience, that explaination makes a heck of a lot more sense.
 
Another analogy to explain it is the father/son incident.

The son has a fender bender with dad’s car. Dad pays the deductible on the other guy to fix the situation. But then he turns to his son and says those famous words “your grounded”. The son isn’t getting off scott free.
 
Ok, so she said “Lol.that’s ok.i dont have texting anymore though.i used it all up already.haha.anyway,i agree with what u said about sin being forgiven but the consequence is still there.i think when we sin and we ask 4giveness,God 4gives us but we still suffer the consequences while here on earth.like when u jump off of a building,u can ask for 4giveness afterwards and ur parents may forgive u but u still have to suffer the hurts of ur bones being broken and stuff.” I think she has a better understanding of it now, but I can’t text her until nov 9 because she’s used up all her text messages lol.
 
TeenageConvert said:
Ok, so she said “Lol.that’s ok.i dont have texting anymore though.i used it all up already.haha.anyway,i agree with what u said about sin being forgiven but the consequence is still there.i think when we sin and we ask 4giveness,God 4gives us but we still suffer the consequences while here on earth.like when u jump off of a building,u can ask for 4giveness afterwards and ur parents may forgive u but u still have to suffer the hurts of ur bones being broken and stuff.” I think she has a better understanding of it now, but I can’t text her until nov 9 because she’s used up all her text messages lol.
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That is good. At least she is now admitting that even if you sins are forgiven there are still consequences. So you can ask her, Okay what if you don’t have a chance to ask god to forgive your sins but you pass away. Do you automatically go to hell because you still have sins? Or does it seem reasonable that if you only have venial sins God would be able to forgive you in the after life so you can join him in heaven. Now we know you still have sins so jus like on earth you have to pay for them. Hence, purgatory.

I would direct her to 1 Peter 3:19-20 , when Jesus, “preached to the spirits in prision.” We know that if you are in hell you have no chance of salvation because God passed his judgment. But what about these Sprits. Where were they that Jesus (after his crucifiction) could preach to them so they could be saved.? The answer must be in some prugartroial state. Notice also they were in prision in the afterlife… is that not a form fo suffering?

Also look at 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 This passage is a clear and obvious allusion to Purgatory.

Good luck.
 
TeenageConvert said:
Ok, so she said “Lol.that’s ok.i dont have texting anymore though.i used it all up already.haha.anyway,i agree with what u said about sin being forgiven but the consequence is still there.i think when we sin and we ask 4giveness,God 4gives us but we still suffer the consequences while here on earth.like when u jump off of a building,u can ask for 4giveness afterwards and ur parents may forgive u but u still have to suffer the hurts of ur bones being broken and stuff.” I think she has a better understanding of it now, but I can’t text her until nov 9 because she’s used up all her text messages lol.
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The part where she says “I agree” makes me think that so far so good. 🙂
 
Keep it simple,

Purgatory is God’s mercy.

No one at the moment of death is sooo holy and sooo pure - that they are entitled to go straight to the Beatific Vision.

However long or however brief - everyone must go through a purging of guilt for forgiven sins, faults and imperfections.

Exempt is the Theotokos whose purity and sinlessness is second only to her Son Jesus Christ. Those who have lived a saintly life may also be exempt - by the grace of God…all others must pay.

We pray for the poor souls in Purgatory so their time in this place of purging and purifying may be made short through our prayers and sacrifices. The church militant praying for the church suffering so that, they will become part of the church triumphant who will then pray for the church militant.
 
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