Explaining the process of Courting

[LaMusicaSenior]

Not to be indelicate, but people do not have to be close enough and aware enough to overhear your conversations to be close enough and aware enough to be a reminder to you two unmarried lovers to keep your clothing and hands where the clothing and hands of unmarried people belong.

IOW, a level of surveillance that makes discovery a constant possibility is usually sufficient.

That is what I mean by “courting”, not that you always have your father within four feet away, glowering at your suitor with a loaded Winchester on his lap!

Exactly - not being in secluded areas, having accountability to parents or other adults whom you trust (this is a teenager talking, things would be slightly different if you were older) going out in groups, etc. Although I wouldn’t put the actions of that Dad past my dad

 

[chevalier]

One word of caution with regard to “courting”: please do not confuse old customs with good customs or secular societal expectations from the Victorian era with the requirements of Catholic morality (especially when the source is protestant fundamentalist). Just like Elisabethan English is not the norm any more, neither do we necessarily need to invite the courting customs of the past ages.

What we need to do is to allow the man and the woman to become familiar with each other’s personality and character and discern marriage together (and perhaps marriage in general) in conditions that respect their dignity and that help them keep their chastity (purity of thought, desire and action).

That dignity and that discernment are the important factors. Reenactment is not. An aura of rigidity and the fun of being counter-cultural are not either.

 

[EasterJoy]

Exactly - not being in secluded areas, having accountability to parents or other adults whom you trust (this is a teenager talking, things would be slightly different if you were older) going out in groups, etc.

Exactly.

People tend to underestimate the degree to which temptations that are easily conquered the first time you present yourself with them can get progressively more and more difficult to resist, not to mention that temptations once indulged are even harder to resist thereafter. Even a temptation that is easily resisted at 4 pm can be far harder to resist at 11 pm, never mind the strength of temptation one feels with someone one is considering as a maybe worth another night out for a movie compared to someone who seems a real possibility for marriage. People of all ages also tend to think it speaks poorly of their spiritual state if they admit that they are, in fact, tempted.

Having said that, a teen does not have a brain that is fully formed in terms of being physically likely to consistently produce decision-making consistent with the teen’s own previous resolutions. This is a medical fact, not a disparagement of teens. Therefore, in spite of the degree to which even old married people are wise to stay out of unsupervised situations with those to whom they are not married, it is totally reasonable that a teen in particularly is wise to have some oversight by those having less personal bias than they do.

Although I wouldn’t put the actions of that Dad past my dad

This is not peculiar to fathers who were seriously religious before they saw their daughter leave for an evening’s entertainment with a young man:

*8 Rules for Dating My Daughter

Copyright 1999 W. Bruce Cameron
(Please do NOT remove the copyright from this essay!)

When I was in high school I used to be terrified of my girlfriend’s father, who I believe suspected me of wanting to place my hands on his daughter’s chest. He would open the door and immediately affect a good-naturedly murderous expression, holding out a hand that, when gripped, felt like it could squeeze carbon into diamonds.

Now, years later, it is my turn to be the dad. Remembering how unfairly persecuted I felt when I would pick up my dates, I do my best to make my daughter’s suitors feel even worse. My motto: wilt them in the living room and they’ll stay wilted all night.

“So,” I’ll call out jovially. “I see you have your nose pierced. Is that because you’re stupid, or did you merely want to APPEAR stupid?”

As a dad, I have some basic rules, which I have carved into two stone tablets that I have on display in my living room.

            **Rule One:** If you pull into my driveway and honk you'd better be
            delivering a package, because you're sure as heck not picking
            anything up.

            **Rule Two: **You do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may
            glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her
            neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off of my daughter's
            body, I will remove them.

            **Rule Three:** I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of
            your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be
            falling off their hips. Please don't take this as an insult, but you and
            all of your friends are complete idiots. Still, I want to be fair and
            open minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You
            may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants
            ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, In order to assure
            that your clothes do not, in fact, come off during the course of your
            date with my daughter, I will take my electric staple gun and fasten
            your trousers securely in place around your waist.

            **Rule Four: **I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex
            without utilizing a "barrier method" of some kind can kill you. Let me
            elaborate: when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I WILL kill
            you.

            **Rule Five:** In order for us to get to know each other, we should talk
            about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do
            this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when
            you expect to have my daughter safely back at my house, and the
            only word I need from you on this subject is "early."

            **Rule Six:** I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many
            opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is
            okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my
            little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished
            with you. If you make her cry, I will make YOU cry.

            **Rule Seven: **As you stand in my front hallway, waiting for my
            daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, do not sigh and
            fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be
            dating. My daughter is putting on her makeup, a process which can
            take longer than painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Instead of just
            standing there, why don't you do something useful, like changing the
            oil in my car?

            **Rule Eight: **The following places are not appropriate for a date with
            my daughter: Places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer
            than a wooden stool. Places where there are no parents, policemen,
            or nuns within eyesight. Places where there is darkness. Places
            where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness. Places where
            the ambient temperature is warm enough to induce my daughter to
            wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than
            overalls, a sweater, and a goose down parka zipped up to her
            adam's apple. Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to
            be avoided; movies which feature chainsaws are okay. Hockey
            games are okay.

            My daughter claims it embarrasses her to come downstairs and find
            me attempting to get her date to recite these eight simple rules from
            memory. I'd be embarrassed too-there are only eight of them, for
            crying out loud! And, for the record, I did NOT suggest to one of
            these cretins that I'd have these rules tattooed on his arm if he
            couldn't remember them. (I checked into it and the cost is
            prohibitive.) I merely told him that I thought writing the rules on his
            arm with a ball point might be inadequate-ink washes off-and that
            my wood burning set was probably a better alternative.

            One time, when my wife caught me having one of my daughter's
            would-be suitors practice pulling into the driveway, get out of the
            car, and go up to knock on the front door (he had violated rule
            number one, so I figured he needed to run through the drill a few
            dozen times) she asked me why I was being so hard on the boy.
            "Don't you remember being that age?" she challenged.

            Of course I remember. Why do you think I came up with the eight
            simple rules?*

 

[EasterJoy]

One word of caution with regard to “courting”: please do not confuse old customs with good customs or secular societal expectations from the Victorian era with the requirements of Catholic morality (especially when the source is protestant fundamentalist). Just like Elisabethan English is not the norm any more, neither do we necessarily need to invite the courting customs of the past ages.

What we need to do is to allow the man and the woman to become familiar with each other’s personality and character and discern marriage together (and perhaps marriage in general) in conditions that respect their dignity and that help them keep their chastity (purity of thought, desire and action).

That dignity and that discernment are the important factors. Reenactment is not. An aura of rigidity and the fun of being counter-cultural are not either.

No, it isn’t necessary to look up what the Victorians did or the Evangelicals are doing, as if these are some sort of an ideal. It is better to go back to first principles, and consider what people who may not have marital relations and are resolved not to have them need to do in order to keep from being tempted in that direction.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

Exactly.

People tend to underestimate the degree to which temptations that are easily conquered the first time you present yourself with them can get progressively more and more difficult to resist, not to mention that temptations once indulged are even harder to resist thereafter. Even a temptation that is easily resisted at 4 pm can be far harder to resist at 11 pm, never mind the strength of temptation one feels with someone one is considering as a maybe worth another night out for a movie compared to someone who seems a real possibility for marriage. People of all ages also tend to think it speaks poorly of their spiritual state if they admit that they are, in fact, tempted.

Having said that, a teen does not have a brain that is fully formed in terms of being physically likely to consistently produce decision-making consistent with the teen’s own previous resolutions. This is a medical fact, not a disparagement of teens. Therefore, in spite of the degree to which even old married people are wise to stay out of unsupervised situations with those to whom they are not married, it is totally reasonable that a teen in particularly is wise to have some oversight by those having less personal bias than they do.

This is not peculiar to fathers who were seriously religious before they saw their daughter leave for an evening’s entertainment with a young man:

8 Rules for Dating My Daughter

Copyright 1999 W. Bruce Cameron
(Please do NOT remove the copyright from this essay!)

When I was in high school I used to be terrified of my girlfriend’s father, who I believe suspected me of wanting to place my hands on his daughter’s chest. He would open the door and immediately affect a good-naturedly murderous expression, holding out a hand that, when gripped, felt like it could squeeze carbon into diamonds.

Now, years later, it is my turn to be the dad. Remembering how unfairly persecuted I felt when I would pick up my dates, I do my best to make my daughter’s suitors feel even worse. My motto: wilt them in the living room and they’ll stay wilted all night.

“So,” I’ll call out jovially. “I see you have your nose pierced. Is that because you’re stupid, or did you merely want to APPEAR stupid?”

As a dad, I have some basic rules, which I have carved into two stone tablets that I have on display in my living room.

            **Rule One:** If you pull into my driveway and honk you'd better be
            delivering a package, because you're sure as heck not picking
            anything up.

            **Rule Two: **You do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may
            glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her
            neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off of my daughter's
            body, I will remove them.

            **Rule Three:** I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of
            your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be
            falling off their hips. Please don't take this as an insult, but you and
            all of your friends are complete idiots. Still, I want to be fair and
            open minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You
            may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants
            ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, In order to assure
            that your clothes do not, in fact, come off during the course of your
            date with my daughter, I will take my electric staple gun and fasten
            your trousers securely in place around your waist.

            **Rule Four: **I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex
            without utilizing a "barrier method" of some kind can kill you. Let me
            elaborate: when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I WILL kill
            you.

            **Rule Five:** In order for us to get to know each other, we should talk
            about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do
            this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when
            you expect to have my daughter safely back at my house, and the
            only word I need from you on this subject is "early."

            **Rule Six:** I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many
            opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is
            okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my
            little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished
            with you. If you make her cry, I will make YOU cry.

            **Rule Seven: **As you stand in my front hallway, waiting for my
            daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, do not sigh and
            fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be
            dating. My daughter is putting on her makeup, a process which can
            take longer than painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Instead of just
            standing there, why don't you do something useful, like changing the
            oil in my car?

            **Rule Eight: **The following places are not appropriate for a date with
            my daughter: Places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer
            than a wooden stool. Places where there are no parents, policemen,
            or nuns within eyesight. Places where there is darkness. Places
            where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness. Places where
            the ambient temperature is warm enough to induce my daughter to
            wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than
            overalls, a sweater, and a goose down parka zipped up to her
            adam's apple. Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to
            be avoided; movies which feature chainsaws are okay. Hockey
            games are okay.

            My daughter claims it embarrasses her to come downstairs and find
            me attempting to get her date to recite these eight simple rules from
            memory. I'd be embarrassed too-there are only eight of them, for
            crying out loud! And, for the record, I did NOT suggest to one of
            these cretins that I'd have these rules tattooed on his arm if he
            couldn't remember them. (I checked into it and the cost is
            prohibitive.) I merely told him that I thought writing the rules on his
            arm with a ball point might be inadequate-ink washes off-and that
            my wood burning set was probably a better alternative.

            One time, when my wife caught me having one of my daughter's
            would-be suitors practice pulling into the driveway, get out of the
            car, and go up to knock on the front door (he had violated rule
            number one, so I figured he needed to run through the drill a few
            dozen times) she asked me why I was being so hard on the boy.
            "Don't you remember being that age?" she challenged.

            Of course I remember. Why do you think I came up with the eight
            simple rules?

Thank you SO MUCH for sharing this - I died laughing here, that is something my Dad would do - and I wouldn’t have it any other way

Thanks again!
Chloe M.

 

[zenith15]

I find that my defintion and pratice of courtship is solid - and learned from multiple books (I kissed dating goodbye,* Of Knights and fair maidens*, boy meets girl: hello to courtship).
I do beleive in accountability partners strengthening the relationship. And parental involvemen will also be a factor for me - after all, he is marrying not only me, but my family as well, and I will be doing the same in his case.
And if a mature young man doesn’t feel as if he is trying to win a girl’s heart and guide her soul to Christ, where is the relationship?
I also believe in avoiding seculsion - as it leads to an occasion of sin. So being in a public area, and not going into places where it is just you and him/her is best as to not have an overly-physical relationship be a problem factor to the process of courting.
Thank you for your thoughts.

I believe “Courtship”, as it is currently practiced in the USA, is an outcropping of t he protestant evangelical “Quiverfull” movement. On the TV show “19 Kids and Counting” the Duggar family recently married off their oldest son Josh, who was about 20 at the time, to a girl he had met just a few times at annual gatherings of like minded families, Anna. Anna was almost painfully shy at first, and all their dates were closely supervised (and I do mean closely) by the parents or siblings. They never once kissed until they were married. They could hug each other only from the side. They COULD, however, hold hands once they were engaged, and they held hands DESPERATELY the whole time, arms twined together, both hands clasped, like they were drowning. The parents of the boy would tease them by kissing each other in front of them and laughing.

They married quickly, as you can imagine, and instantly began the quest to have as many children as humanly possible, which is part of the doctrine of Quiverfull beliefs. The girl was bitterly disappointed as four whole months went by before she conceived. Now they have a one year old and a newborn.

I think there is nothing wrong with a mature couple (in their late teens or twenties) dating without chaperonage, as long as they have been carefully raised. Treating them like infants incapable of self control is ridiculous.

 

[EasterJoy]

I believe “Courtship”, as it is currently practiced in the USA, is an outcropping of t he protestant evangelical “Quiverfull” movement. On the TV show “19 Kids and Counting” the Duggar family recently married off their oldest son Josh, who was about 20 at the time, to a girl he had met just a few times at annual gatherings of like minded families, Anna. Anna was almost painfully shy at first, and all their dates were closely supervised (and I do mean closely) by the parents or siblings. They never once kissed until they were married. They could hug each other only from the side. They COULD, however, hold hands once they were engaged, and they held hands DESPERATELY the whole time, arms twined together, both hands clasped, like they were drowning. The parents of the boy would tease them by kissing each other in front of them and laughing.

They married quickly, as you can imagine, and instantly began the quest to have as many children as humanly possible, which is part of the doctrine of Quiverfull beliefs. The girl was bitterly disappointed as four whole months went by before she conceived. Now they have a one year old and a newborn.

I think there is nothing wrong with a mature couple (in their late teens or twenties) dating without chaperonage, as long as they have been carefully raised. Treating them like infants incapable of self control is ridiculous.

Let’s not draw too many conclusions about reality from what is shown on “reality shows”.

 

[zenith15]

True, but I have also read quite a few books on the subject, both pro and con, and a book by a wife who left just such a relationship in just such a “home church” and was appalled. I’m not speaking simply based on the Duggars reality show (which, incidentally, does have many positive aspects as well).

 

[PHSshamrock]

You remind me a lot of myself… I’m a couple years younger than you so I haven’t had to deal with the whole explaining courtship thing but here’s some advice anyhow

1. Wait for a guy who tries to explain it to you. If he’s already set courtship as an ideal he’s probably a keeper
2. Make him ask your dad for permission first, and let your dad explain why he can only give the young man permission to court you, not to date you.
3. If he’s been your friend for a while, and you forsee a relationship, have a casual conversation about it as friends- before he asks you out.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

You remind me a lot of myself… I’m a couple years younger than you so I haven’t had to deal with the whole explaining courtship thing but here’s some advice anyhow

1. Wait for a guy who tries to explain it to you. If he’s already set courtship as an ideal he’s probably a keeper
2. Make him ask your dad for permission first, and let your dad explain why he can only give the young man permission to court you, not to date you.
3. If he’s been your friend for a while, and you forsee a relationship, have a casual conversation about it as friends- before he asks you out.

Great advice. I pray for No. 1 - that the young man starts the relationship is definatly a neccesary requirement. I also pray that he knows about courtship and is ready to pursue a purpose filled relationship.

No. 2 is also so wonderful - I really am incredibly blessed with a father who has my best interest always in mind and believes the same way I do about courtship!

No. 3 is great, too. It is always wonderful to have a young man interested in you that you already know as a friend - as courtship is infact a season of friendship, with the goal of discerning a possible marriage for the couple. The good thing about a friend is you already know where he stands of a lot of subjects!

Thanks again and God Bless!
Chloe M.

 

[chevalier]

Slow down, please. You court somebody when you’re a suitor, which means when you sue. Because you don’t just sue in a court for damages, you can also sue for peace etc. As a suitor, you formally attempt to win the woman’s hand in marriage.

…Which is out of place when you’re an eighteen year old that’s clueless about girls and is not in any way marrying tomorrow. Or in a year or two.

As for fathers, let’s not forget than an adult woman is a “sui iuris” person, which essentially means “sovereign” in her decision. Which doesn’t preclude leaning on her protective and experienced father a lot but there are limits.

In other words, don’t get too extreme, especially on a wave of fascination with a romanticised vision of 19th century social relationships.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

What I’m seeing here is a list of formalities that will weed out the wrong men but that the right one will graciously and enthusiastically navigate (in theory). This has bad idea written all over it. You do not get to know who someone really is when you have everything so wrapped up in arbitrary rules. A nice guy takes an interest in you and asks you to dinner so that he can get to know you better. You make it clear to him that you don’t date, only court (and explain that high pressure definition), then tell him that although you’re an adult he needs to ask your dad, and then you find a younger sibling or a friend or whoever to chaperone, and then you find someone who can ask you anything about the date so that you are accountable.

At this point, and actually long before it, any man with even an ounce of self respect will run. He wanted dinner and conversation, you wanted him to prove his intentions with formalities, rules, and plenty of little “tests”. I think it’s far better to to relax and just get to know someone for who they are (without worrying about marriage), rather than see just how many hoops they are willing to jump through to date, I’m sorry, *court *you.

I think that most men would find that woman high maintenance, spoiled, and entitled. Not attractive qualities.

 

[Byrnwiga]

At this point, and actually long before it, any man with even an ounce of self respect will run.

I must not have much self-respect, then.

I think that most men would find that woman high maintenance, spoiled, and entitled. Not attractive qualities.

Well, I believe you are not a man and so therefore cannot accurately judge how a man would react to such requirements.

-Byrnwiga

 

[chevalier]

What I’m seeing here is a list of formalities that will weed out the wrong men but that the right one will graciously and enthusiastically navigate (in theory). This has bad idea written all over it. You do not get to know who someone really is when you have everything so wrapped up in arbitrary rules. A nice guy takes an interest in you and asks you to dinner so that he can get to know you better. You make it clear to him that you don’t date, only court (and explain that high pressure definition), then tell him that although you’re an adult he needs to ask your dad, and then you find a younger sibling or a friend or whoever to chaperone, and then you find someone who can ask you anything about the date so that you are accountable.

At this point, and actually long before it, any man with even an ounce of self respect will run. He wanted dinner and conversation, you wanted him to prove his intentions with formalities, rules, and plenty of little “tests”. I think it’s far better to to relax and just get to know someone for who they are (without worrying about marriage), rather than see just how many hoops they are willing to jump through to date, I’m sorry, *court *you.

I think that most men would find that woman high maintenance, spoiled, and entitled. Not attractive qualities.

A wise post, BlueEyedLady brings up good points. While men probably have a tendency to be good for nothing bluebirds statistically, when you do meet a gentleman you need to treat him like one (which does not mean believing him unconditionally but not just treating him with humiliating distrust and suspicion either). Starting from early twenties, I believe both the man and the woman should be expected to act with honour and responsibility and not subject to a humiliating routine with chaperones etc. just because someone finds it cool to reenact 19th century customs (or just intimidate people–here referring to what some fathers do). Let alone things like being expected to make an account of the “date” or put up with being treated like a crime suspect. Let alone anything to do with a shotgun.

Humiliating a man and throwing obstacles under his feet can get tedious after a while, from his perspective. Resentment could result, even a lasting one. Or even a confrontation. Personally, if someone even implied anything to do with a weapon or otherwise bodily harm, even in jest, I doubt my foot would ever step in that house without an apology, perhaps a formal one. And even then, it would put a large burden on my ability to forgive and forget. If I couldn’t respect the father as a gentleman (and gentlemen don’t wave weapons at people, at least at other gentlemen), I’m not sure I could continue to be interested in the daughter.

Also, no need to formalise the process of just talking about things and finding out whether you’re compatible, at a stage where you’re still testing your options rather than following through on a chosen one. Needless to say, a woman in her twenties actually telling a man to ask her dad before asking her out for a coffee or a film, would not look like a reasonable adult, which could put in question her ability to direct her life.

For the record, high-maintenance is okay from my point of view, even somewhat desired, to be honest. Spoiled is not a great deal of a problem, within some limits, and entitlement isn’t that bad of an issue in a generally well-brought-up person that knows bounds and doesn’t treat other people as her social inferiors. But arbitrary rules, out of touch expectations, theatrical tendencies, drama, that could be too much to take.

 

[AthenaC]

I think that most men would find that woman high maintenance, spoiled, and entitled. Not attractive qualities.

Most men I know would also not find these qualities attractive. But maybe that just says more about the quality of men I’m friends with rather than what “men” want.

Well, I believe you are not a man and so therefore cannot accurately judge how a man would react to such requirements.

You raise a good point. When I look around, I do see a lot of men who are transfixed by high-maintenance women, undergoing all sorts of abuse and near-bankruptcy to keep them happy. So clearly there is something about a high-maintenance woman that “men” find attractive.

 

[Byrnwiga]

You raise a good point. When I look around, I do see a lot of men who are transfixed by high-maintenance women, undergoing all sorts of abuse and near-bankruptcy to keep them happy. So clearly there is something about a high-maintenance woman that “men” find attractive.

I may have neglected to make a certain point: I don’t find the requirements being set out in this practice of courtship to be indicative of someone who is “high maintenance, spoiled, and entitled”. Admittedly, BlueEyedLady did say “most” men as opposed to “all” men, so my comment isn’t really necessary.

-Byrnwiga

 

[BlueEyedLady]

A wise post, BlueEyedLady brings up good points. While men probably have a tendency to be good for nothing bluebirds statistically, when you do meet a gentleman you need to treat him like one (which does not mean believing him unconditionally but not just treating him with humiliating distrust and suspicion either). Starting from early twenties, I believe both the man and the woman should be expected to act with honour and responsibility and not subject to a humiliating routine with chaperones etc. just because someone finds it cool to reenact 19th century customs (or just intimidate people–here referring to what some fathers do). Let alone things like being expected to make an account of the “date” or put up with being treated like a crime suspect. Let alone anything to do with a shotgun.

Humiliating a man and throwing obstacles under his feet can get tedious after a while, from his perspective. Resentment could result, even a lasting one.

Also, no need to formalise the process of just talking about things and finding out whether you’re compatible (and still testing your options rather than following through on a chosen one). Needless to say, a woman in her twenties telling a guy to ask her dad before asking her out for a coffee or a film, would not look like a reasonable adult.

Agreed. I’m trying to imagine having a son in his 20’s who is describing his first serious relationship to me in this manner. I think I would hit the roof and be very, very concerned and worried about a young woman treating him like this.

I tried to imagine treating my fiance like this when we were dating, and I think that halfway through our first date he would have raised an eyebrow and made up some excuse about forgetting to give his lizard its cold medication just to get out of there. And he is no stranger to old fashioned, traditional, or gentlemanly behavior.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

I am looking forward to, in the future, a purpose filled relationship. I am wanting more than dinner and a movie. I am wanting a friendship that leads both of us to God while pursuing a relationship with eternity in mind. I’m not interested in recreational dating, I’m looking for a “sweeter song.”

So, a list of “revised”, or rather, a little bit more organized thoughts concerning my process of courtship.

- The courtship does start with a discussion with my father.  I value his opinion very much.  While it is ultimatly my decision whether or not to court this young man, I do want my parent's blessing on this relationship.

 -  A solid marriage results in the basis of a solid friendship.  So until we are married, we treat each other with the respect of brothers and sisters in Christ.

 -  A rejection of dating isn't becasue I am afraid of a relationship, but becusae I am looking for something so much more fufilling - a lifestyle of purpose filled and pure relationship that brings both of us closer to God and to Heaven.

 -  To work towards the preservation of both of our purity, the courtship avoids enviroments of isolation (ie - in the car alone, at one of our houses where the opportunity for sin presents itself, and non-communicating events where we are not learning more about each other).  To help us with this goal, guidance of parents, experienced and trusted friends, and spiritual guides will be valued.

 -  By participating in activities that serve others in the comunity, we will see how each other acts with those who know us best and be able to answer questions that purpose-less dating will not.  A wedding is such an amazing experience becuase you are surronded by those who love you, and a courtship is this experience becuase we are surronded by those who have our best interst in mind.

 -  Getting to know *you* is the purpose of the relationship.  Contrary to dating, which can create a false "masquerade" enviroment, courtship is a relationship that shows your character and abilities that will show if you will be a good husband in the future.  So, courtship is based on activites with families, friends, youth group, etc to be able to see each other in our real life enviroments.

 -  Courtship is a relationship that begins with eternity in mind.  It is a process in which both of us should grown spiritually and closer to God.  Beings that the young man is seen as the initator of the relationship, he should take the role of spiritual leadership very seriously.  

 -  Courtship is a committment.  Elisabeth Elliot says: "Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right does he have to claim her exclusive attention?" So the relationship should never take over our relationship with God, family, and friends - meaning courtship doesn't isoalte us from other vital relationships.

 -  Just because lips have met doesn't mea hearts are joined for God.  *MY standards for physical relationship (these are for me, not for everyone, becuase each must determine their boundries in a relationship)* is a kiss on the cheek and holding hands.  This is because each further step beyond these boundries is a slippery slope, and beings that I am saving my first kiss for my future husband, I wish this relationship to by physically pure.  

 -  C.S. Lewis said "Friendship is where two people walk side by side twoardsa common goal."  The common goal of courtship is marriage - and a friendship based on common interests and a love of the Lord.

 

[chevalier]

Agreed. I’m trying to imagine having a son in his 20’s who is describing his first serious relationship to me in this manner. I think I would hit the roof and be very, very concerned and worried about a young woman treating him like this.

I tried to imagine treating my fiance like this when we were dating, and I think that halfway through our first date he would have raised an eyebrow and made up some excuse about forgetting to give his lizard its cold medication just to get out of there. And he is no stranger to old fashioned, traditional, or gentlemanly behavior.

I could probably get along with an, “okay, but you need to see my father first, this is important to me.” Somebody so traditional could perhaps get along with me well in other aspects and would be likely to be well adjusted on patriotic values and other such things. But I’d give the condition that I were to be introduced and a treated as a friend (needless to say, no conversations with the father as to what I can and what I can’t do). I don’t care what everybody knows but I want my respect, mostly self-respect. Then again, I’m 29 and with some degrees, so I consider myself a bit more entitled than when I was a 21 years old lad.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

As a suitor, you formally attempt to win the woman’s hand in marriage.

…Which is out of place when you’re an eighteen year old that’s clueless about girls and is not in any way marrying tomorrow. Or in a year or two.

.

I agree with you on the point of patiently waiting for God’s will. But, this thread is for explaining the process of courting. Laying down a foundation of what I will be looking for in a relationship when I reach the maturity level of mariage is a way of preparing myself to defend my stanards now. This is helpful when I am questioned on why I don’t date, and why I won’t go out with someone now.