Explaining the process of Courting

[LaMusicaSenior]

Starting from early twenties, I believe both the man and the woman should be expected to act with honour and responsibility and not subject to a humiliating routine with chaperones etc. just because someone finds it cool to reenact 19th century customs (or just intimidate people–here referring to what some fathers do). Let alone things like being expected to make an account of the “date” or put up with being treated like a crime suspect. Let alone anything to do with a shotgun.

But arbitrary rules, out of touch expectations, theatrical tendencies, drama, that could be too much to take.

 Yes, the relationship should be based on mutual honor and respect.  Yet the "humiliating routine" of chaperones is NOT an attempt to reenact "cool 19th century customs," or treat the young man like a "criminal suspect."  To the contrary, this is a presence of a trusted friend who can determine whether the relationship is givnig Glory to God - after all, isn't this the actual purpose of a purpose-filled relationship?  

 The practice of courtship is in no way fueled by arbitrary rules, out of touch expectations, theatrical tendencies and drama.  It is fueled by a love of God and a desire to participate in a relationship that discerns marriage.  It is not a subject taken lightly, like coffee or a movie.  It's an alternitive that doesn't result in broke hearts and regrets.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yes, the relationship should be based on mutual honor and respect. Yet the “humiliating routine” of chaperones is NOT an attempt to reenact “cool 19th century customs,” or treat the young man like a “criminal suspect.” To the contrary, this is a presence of a trusted friend who can determine whether the relationship is givnig Glory to God - after all, isn’t this the actual purpose of a purpose-filled relationship?

 The practice of courtship is in no way fueled by arbitrary rules, out of touch expectations, theatrical tendencies and drama.  It is fueled by a love of God and a desire to participate in a relationship that discerns marriage.  It is not a subject taken lightly, like coffee or a movie.  It's an alternitive that doesn't result in broke hearts and regrets.

If you need someone else there all the time to make sure that your relationship is “giving glory to god” then you probably aren’t mature enough for a relationship of any kind.

 

[Byrnwiga]

If you need someone else there all the time to make sure that your relationship is “giving glory to god” then you probably aren’t mature enough for a relationship of any kind.

Oh how many have failed out of pride in their own maturity! I think it takes greater maturity to recognize human weakness than to shirk one’s responsibility to others (be they fellow Christians or otherwise).

-Byrnwiga

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

If you need someone else there all the time to make sure that your relationship is “giving glory to god” then you probably aren’t mature enough for a relationship of any kind.

I respectfully disagree. Having guidance in a future relationship is important to me. Infact, a desire for council and trusted moral advice is infact, in my eyes, mature.

 

[thewanderer]

Ok, a few things

I am looking forward to, in the future, a purpose filled relationship. I am wanting more than dinner and a movie. I am wanting a friendship that leads both of us to God while pursuing a relationship with eternity in mind. I’m not interested in recreational dating, I’m looking for a “sweeter song.”

I know you said earlier that you are not trying to claim courtship is better than dating for everyone… but what you are saying here implies that those who date do not havve purpose filled relationships or friendships which lead to God. I think this is something that comes across in your posts multiple times. Its fine to want these things, but be careful to rephrase it. These are not reasons to court as opposed to date, they are not reasons for you to not date. They are additional requirements for you from any relationship, but since they are quite possible both from dating and courting it is very incorrect to claim that they are reasons for you courting as opposed to dating. Please do not speak of them as such.

So, a list of “revised”, or rather, a little bit more organized thoughts concerning my process of courtship.

• The courtship does start with a discussion with my father. I value his opinion very much. While it is ultimatly my decision whether or not to court this young man, I do want my parent’s blessing on this relationship.

- A solid marriage results in the basis of a solid friendship. So until we are married, we treat each other with the respect of brothers and sisters in Christ.

While this is very true it is also actually very very important to have sexual attraction. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with a couple deciding they won’t kiss before marriage, (so long as they decide this as a couple, not as one pressuring the other into it). It can be very romantic to wait that way, and so long as there is real attraction there on top of friendship and the couple is still able to show their affection to each other without kissing, then that can be fine. But an engaged couple should most definately not be treating each other as they would one of their siblings or other friends. If they are not treating each other differently then that is a sign of issues in their relationship that needs to get worked out.

• A rejection of dating isn’t becasue I am afraid of a relationship, but becusae I am looking for something so much more fufilling - a lifestyle of purpose filled and pure relationship that brings both of us closer to God and to Heaven.

Again, this assumes that dating cannot be purpose filled and pure relationship, which is completely false and offensive to all those who have dated seriously in pure relationships

• To work towards the preservation of both of our purity, the courtship avoids enviroments of isolation (ie - in the car alone, at one of our houses where the opportunity for sin presents itself, and non-communicating events where we are not learning more about each other). To help us with this goal, guidance of parents, experienced and trusted friends, and spiritual guides will be valued.

This is actually my biggest problem with courting. If being alone with ones significant other is a near occasion of sin then there is something wrong. Of course every couple is going to have to find their limits as a couple, and hold to those limits, but seriously, if you guys can’t control yourselves when hanging out alone before marriage, that is a huge indication of a problem with the way one or both of you view sex. Just because you are attracted to each other does not mean it is a near occasion of sin. If the mere sight of your SO and lack of witnesses is enough to push you over the edge into having sex then you probably shouldn’t be considering marriage yet. If these are just boundaries that are being set up because of some ideal or romantic image of the past, thats fine, so long as the person you are interested in is ok with that, but they are not necessary in and of themselves and can at times even mask a much deeper problem.

• By participating in activities that serve others in the comunity, we will see how each other acts with those who know us best and be able to answer questions that purpose-less dating will not. A wedding is such an amazing experience becuase you are surronded by those who love you, and a courtship is this experience becuase we are surronded by those who have our best interst in mind.

Again, this implies that it is impossible to get to know someone when dating as well as that all dating is purposeless, both of which are false and offensive. If you are seriously dating, you will see each other in all different sorts of settings, with friends, with family, any situation you can think of honestly, the main difference is just that if you are courting you won’t spend time alone.

• Getting to know you is the purpose of the relationship. Contrary to dating, which can create a false “masquerade” enviroment, courtship is a relationship that shows your character and abilities that will show if you will be a good husband in the future. So, courtship is based on activites with families, friends, youth group, etc to be able to see each other in our real life enviroments.

I think the idea that courting neccessarily leads one to get to know the real ‘you’ is false. People can be just as deceptive courting as they can dating, and often it is an unconscience deception. If they are too cought up in an ideal then they will behave as they think the ideal tells them they ought to instead of acting according to who they actually are. Truly getting to know your SO is not gauranteed by courting, nor is it uncommon with serious dating.

• Courtship is a relationship that begins with eternity in mind. It is a process in which both of us should grown spiritually and closer to God. Beings that the young man is seen as the initator of the relationship, he should take the role of spiritual leadership very seriously.

Since it is just as possible for a dating relationship to begin with eternity in mind and to be seen as a process that allows the couple to grow closer to God this should be boiled down to the fact that you want the man you date to take his responsibility as spiritual head very seriously. Which incidentally is also quite possible in a dating relationship, you just need to establish from the beginning that this is something you want and expect out of the relationship.

• Courtship is a committment. Elisabeth Elliot says: “Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right does he have to claim her exclusive attention?” So the relationship should never take over our relationship with God, family, and friends - meaning courtship doesn’t isoalte us from other vital relationships.

Dating seriously also involves a comitment. I would also like to add the caveat that one should not assume that just because one is courting that you will get married. Courtship and dating are both processes of discernment. One should not assume that ones partner is going to end up marrying them just because they are courting. There ought to be a certain level of comitment, but sdo not expect the level of comitment shared by an engaged couple. :nope:

 

[thewanderer]

• Just because lips have met doesn’t mea hearts are joined for God. MY standards for physical relationship (these are for me, not for everyone, becuase each must determine their boundries in a relationship) is a kiss on the cheek and holding hands. This is because each further step beyond these boundries is a slippery slope, and beings that I am saving my first kiss for my future husband, I wish this relationship to by physically pure.

As I said previously, if one cannot share even a simple closed-mouth kiss on the lips with ones SO without falling into sin then there are serious problems with the relationship. Please note that I am not saying this so as to discourage you or imply that it is wrong to avoid kissing on the mouth before marriage, I am simply trying to point out an important fact, that it should not be out of a fear that one will be unable to remain pure if one does kiss. I can understand drawing a line somewhere, you have to draw a line somewhere, and if not kissing on the lips is what you and your significant other come to as the line you draw thats perfectly fine, like I said, it can be incredibly romantic to save even ones kisses for ones husband, but reserving kissing for marriage should not be done out of a fear that such kisses themselves are actually a near occasion of sin. Like I said earlier about being in each others company, if a peck on the lips is a near occasion of sin then the relationship already has serious issues.

• C.S. Lewis said “Friendship is where two people walk side by side twoardsa common goal.” The common goal of courtship is marriage - and a friendship based on common interests and a love of the Lord.

Again, this implies that dating does not involve either friendship or the common goal of marriage, which is again false and offensive.

I realize that this probably sounds a little harsh, please don’t take it so, I truly mean it in the best way possible. In showing you where dating is not different than courting I am not trying to put down courting, merely trying to help you learn how to best express your preferences for a relationship. As it is currently written it is actually quite offensive to people who seek chaste dating relationships geared towards a discernment of marriage. It would be much better if you could rephrase all of those so that instead of turning them into a comparison between dating and courtiship, express them merely as things you want from your relationship. As for my criticisms of courting and not kissing etc, please understand that these are not criticisms as such of courting etc, but merely criticisms of dangers that are associated with courting, not kissing etc. I am pointing them out to make sure you are aware of them so that if you do go this route you can avoid these pitfalls.

One last thing I would like to point out is that since the main real difference between courting and dating is not one that is intrinsically better, you should be careful of rejecting a man who is interested in a pure serious dating relationship that is a discernment for marriage. Just because you personally like the romantic ideal of not kissing or spending time alone before marriage does not mean that the man God intends for you will think the same. Every good relationship involves give and take. If the man who God wants you to marry does not like the idea of courting, but is instead interested in a chaste serious dating relationship, then it would be unfair of you to unilaterally demand that he follow your ideal, succesful relationships don’t involve unilateral demands from either partner. So I would definately keep that in mind.

I wish you all the best.

 

[chevalier]

I respectfully disagree. Having guidance in a future relationship is important to me. Infact, a desire for council and trusted moral advice is infact, in my eyes, mature.

Guidance from a trusted friend, who is basically your equal in maturity (your peer) and not a parent or teacher figure? I actually agree with BlueEyedLady on this one (and we don’t normally side together).

Plus, a relationship needs privacy, whether it’s a romantic relationship or a simple friendship.

Yes, the relationship should be based on mutual honor and respect. Yet the “humiliating routine” of chaperones is NOT an attempt to reenact “cool 19th century customs,” or treat the young man like a “criminal suspect.”

Oh yes, very much cool 19th century customs and very much treating the young man or the young couple like criminal suspects. It’s understandable that after the compromitation of the liberal model there’s now a rebound and a compensational tendency towards the opposite extreme but there’s no need to give in to another hype. A sober approach would be ideal.

As for what I said about treating a man like a criminal suspect, if you essentially tell a man that a third party needs to be present all the time or else he will commit chastity violations, you’re basically treating him like a potential criminal. I understand you apply the same criteria to yourself but you’re freer to apply them to yourself than to others.

To the contrary, this is a presence of a trusted friend who can determine whether the relationship is givnig Glory to God - after all, isn’t this the actual purpose of a purpose-filled relationship?

You can attribute the purpose of giving glory to God to anything with that type of blanket statement. Having a chaperone around is not in any way inherently tied to giving glory to God. You’re only talking about subjective motivation there.

 The practice of courtship is in no way fueled by arbitrary rules, out of touch expectations, theatrical tendencies and drama.  It is fueled by a love of God and a desire to participate in a relationship that discerns marriage.  It is not a subject taken lightly, like coffee or a movie.  It's an alternitive that doesn't result in broke hearts and regrets.

You’re speaking of subjective motivation rather than the objective properties of the process. Additionally, you operate from the assumption that dating = bad motivation and courting (whatever you understand it) = wanting to give glory to God etc. You could use the same pattern in any discussion where you want to discredit a view different from yours.

I profoundly disagree with you on the coffee, while the value of going to the cinema for films is perhaps up to debate. There is nothing “light” about conversations over coffee or tea (or apple pie or no food or drink whatsoever). You need conversations. An artificially solemnised mood is not necessarily good, either. You don’t actually have a duty to be grim and serious. In fact, good humour is a quality many saints have had. The saints have generally had positive, joyful moods except in particularly bad situations where that would be very inappropriate.

---

Perhaps to comment a bit in connection with what Thewanderer said, as much as I am very much in favour of being sparing with the kissing and of reducing the tension by choosing daytime hours, public areas etc., actually having meaningful subjects to take about as opposed to the subject being the dynamics of the relationship etc. (I suppose sheer boredom is a frequent cause of people making out… just because they don’t have anything particular to do with each other, while they could e.g. play Worms like responsible adults), which are all very reasonable things, giving in to the hype of Victorian reconstruction with chaperones and treating everybody like he’s 10 years younger than he really is, is a bit like confusing good parenting with strict parenting. Or good law with strict law.

The means to get to know each other well, and even to preserve purity while doing so, is not to enact a set of dusty prescripts but to employ creativity. Creativity, mental effort, is what supplies people with meaningful things to do together (an intellectual is someone who has discovered something else than sex in his life). If they can spend time together in interesting ways instead of getting physical compensational, purity will be there. Especially when some intellectual, spiritual and other links are discovered or built, as opposed to relying on oxytocins to do the job. With this type of approach to relationships, people can stick with relationships that have a meaning, a substance, and eliminate those that only really involve mostly physical shallow excitement.

Chaperones etc. may be needed when the couple have proven they can’t be left alone. If staying alone together is an occasion of sin for them. But not in a normal situation between two responsible adults.

Also, we need to bring up children in such a way that they are able to stay alone with a member of the opposite sex and not begin to fornicate. But this is a different subject.

 

[Byrnwiga]

it is also actually very very important to have sexual attraction

Is it really? You make it sound like it’s a requirement. For example, the chance of me meeting someone I’m attracted to, is a devout Catholic, and has some common interests is very unlikely, so I’ve simply dispensed with the attraction part.

If these are just boundaries that are being set up because of some ideal or romantic image of the past, thats fine, so long as the person you are interested in is ok with that, but they are not necessary in and of themselves and can at times even mask a much deeper problem.

Well, if the other person is not okay with the boundaries being set they don’t have to stay. I’m not really sure why anyone would have problems with that. Different people set different boundaries. Also, it seems like you want to call courting ‘dating’ just for the sake of it, as in the suggestion that everything done in courting can be done in dating. It’s now almost an issue of semantics rather than practices.

If the man who God wants you to marry does not like the idea of courting, but is instead interested in a chaste serious dating relationship, then it would be unfair of you to unilaterally demand that he follow your ideal

There is not just one person that would be suitable for a particular individual. Also, a person can set whatever ideals, requirements, or practices they want for someone who wishes to date them. If the other person doesn’t like it, that’s fine.

Multiple instances of:

false and offensive

I don’t see how any of those things being replied to could come anywhere close to being construed as “false and offensive”.

-Byrnwiga

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

Hello to all again!

First off, just wanted to thank you for the conversation on here. This is really the first time I’ve been able to discuss this subject with someone besides my parents and siblings. So, please know that I really appreciate your thoughts - they have given me the chance to think about the fine-tuning of my decision to be courted .

Also, wanted to share some thoughts on here. I was reading “I kissed dating goodbye.” by Joshua Harris. was reading the final chapter, which does talk about courtship, and I wanted to share a piece of that:

 "I think these steps can help us develop Godly romantic relationships.  These stages are casual friendship, deeper friendship, purposeful intamcy with integrity and engagment. "


 Step 1: "My responsibility to her [or him] is to make sure I don't get in the way of what God is doing.  I should encourage her to keep focus and dependence on God.  My second responbility is to people around me, such as church group, non-Christian friends who might observe my relationship, even my little siblings, who watch how I relate to girls.  And my primary responsibility is to God to keep my way pure, serve others as Christ did, and to love my neighbors as I love myself. .... Before we embark on a relationship, we need to sober ourselves up by reviewing our relational responbilities."


 Step 2: Seeking a deeper friendship. "When we find ourselves attracted to soemone, we need to make building friendship with them our first priority and to get to know each other better as individulas.  Instead of dropping out of regular activities and routines to spend time together, look for opportunities to include on another in your real lives.  Find activities that pull you both into each other's world of family, friends, work, as well as areas of service and ministry.  While your friendship progresses, avoid saying and doing things that express romantic love at thios point.  The context of friendship is not the time to talk about a future together, it's the chance to get to know each other, serve God and listen for God's leadership.  Encourage your friends to not treat you as a couple and invite others to join you so you can keep from being paired of at this point.  

The steps to Step 3:  "If you feel inclined to deepen a relationship with a special guy or girl, wait on God through prayer.  Seek the counself of a few trusted, older Christians.  Ideally, these people should include your parents, a Christian mentor [or priest] and other trusted Christian friends.  

Questions to ask: "You need to ask yourself these questions: Based on the character I've obserrved in our friendship, would I consider marrying this person?  Am I prepared to move this relationship beyond a friendship and pursue marriage?

 The Four Green Lights: "Green light one is God's word.  Using scripture [and Church teaching] to determine if marriage is right for you.  Seek God's guidance throug his His word.  Green light two is You're ready for marriage.  Do you have a balanced vision of married life, and are ready for the responsibilities you will be taking on?  Green light three is the approval and support of both of the parents, guardians, mentors, and friends.  You want the wisdom and viewpoint of those who care about you.  Green light number four is God's peace.  You cannot replace peace that comes from following his will.  

 Defining the Relationship to pursue marriage: "So now you have four green lights, and you must face the time where you will define the purpose and direction of the relationship...I believe the young man needs to 'make the first move'....How should this happen?  I believe the young man needs to say something like this: "We're growing closer in friendship and I need to be clear about my motives.  With your parent's permission, I want to explore the possiblity of marriage.  I'm not interested in playing the game of boyfriend and girlfriend.  I'm ready to be tested by you, your family, and those who love you.  My desire is to win your heart."  

 Bringing Romance Home: "Although these specific guildines are written for a specifici couple, I think you'll finnd them helpful in clarifying the purpose and focus of this stage of courtship:
 1.  You are to build each other's trust 
 2.  Begin building an intimate relationship.  Talk about a lot of subjects.  Discuss each other's feelings, concerns, visions, hopes and dreams.  Learn each other's basic convictions.
 3.  Attempt to understand each other: the differences between men and women, goals and roals, and how each other responds to things in life.
 4.  Attempt to understand what things each values and desires.
 5.  Begin investing in each other by prayigng for each other, serving each other, gifting each other.  GREAT EXAMPLES: Letters, phone calls, or flowers.
 6.  Spend time mostly in family and friend circles, but also in some time alone - walks together, etc.  Please avoid a "dating mentality," though.  This is learning and communicating time.  

 Reserve Passion for Marriage: "Set clear guidelines for physical affection.  Please don't treat each other as if you belong to each other.  Physical involvement often found in today's dating relationships often lead to confusion and compromise.  Protect each other by reserving your passion for marriage.  

 Focus on the Soul: "Holding of on the physical....allows you to focus on the soul of your spouse-to-be.  Part of keeping this kind of communication involves avoiding settings that allow temptation.  That doesn't mean you can never have time with just each other, but two people can have time alone without completly isolating themselves from parents and friends.  When you do have activites that involve just the two of you, make sure that you carefully plan your time, avoid sensual focus and atmosphere, and let someone know where you'll be and when you'll be home.  By delyaing physical involvement, you're storing up passion and love for a marriage that will be so meaningful."

As a conclusion: "The progression from casual friendship to deeper friendship to purposeful intimacy with intergrity to engagement won't solve the world's relationship problems.  But it is a safe and wise approach to marriage.  I encourage you to create this one of a kind love story, (written by God), and you'll never regret seeking His best for you and your future spouse!"

Sorry for the long post - but what do you guys think?

Thanks again to all and God Bless!
Chloe M.

 

[thewanderer]

Is it really? You make it sound like it’s a requirement. For example, the chance of me meeting someone I’m attracted to, is a devout Catholic, and has some common interests is very unlikely, so I’ve simply dispensed with the attraction part.

It is much easier to fail in ones marital duties if someone, especially the woman, is not attracted to their spouse. Have you read some of the threads on here that talk about men(and sometimes women) who are stuck in marriages where their spouse just doesn’t want to have relations because they aren’t “in love”? It really is a very important aspect of marriage. No, it is not a complete requirement, I actually argued that quite extensively in another thread here in the past, but it is extremely important and helpful. Spouses are supposed to be attracted to each other. Thats how God created marriage. I am merely trying to make sure the OP doesn’t fall into the trap of belittling such attraction or worse, beginning to view it as a negative, shameful, or harmful thing.

Well, if the other person is not okay with the boundaries being set they don’t have to stay. I’m not really sure why anyone would have problems with that. Different people set different boundaries. Also, it seems like you want to call courting ‘dating’ just for the sake of it, as in the suggestion that everything done in courting can be done in dating. It’s now almost an issue of semantics rather than practices.

There is not just one person that would be suitable for a particular individual. Also, a person can set whatever ideals, requirements, or practices they want for someone who wishes to date them. If the other person doesn’t like it, that’s fine.

Yes, of course they don’t have to. And if the OP is dead set on her boundaries and the other party isn’t they will part ways. My point is that marriage, and so the relationship leading up to it, is full of compromises. There really isn’t room in this kind of relationship for people to be giving unnecessary ultimatums. If it is something that the OP really, really cannot live without, then her suitors will either give in or get out, but she may just find herself with a much smaller pool of people to find a spouse from. If she is not so strict on these very optional boundaries it is possible that she will have a better chance at finding someone at a young age and being able to start a family. I am not telling her to do one thing or another, I am trying to present another point of view for her to think and pray about so that she can ultimately end up following Gods will, not just her own vision of what that is. Perhaps she is correct that she is meant to court and set such boundaries, perhaps that is Gods will for her, but perhaps not. Especially since she is so young I figured giving some different perspectives on this whole thing for her to think about would be a good idea. I am not attacking her.

Multiple instances of:

I don’t see how any of those things being replied to could come anywhere close to being construed as “false and offensive”.

Ok, I will answer the claim that I am equating courting with dating here as well. If you must know why I find such claims to be false and offensive it is through my own experience. I am currently dating a wonderful Catholic man. We intend to marry. We’ve already promised to marry each other as soon as finances allow it. Our relationship has been God-centered, purpose-filled, pure, a discernment of marriage and every single one of those other things I pointed out to the OP as false and offensive. This despite the fact that we did not court, we dated. I also happen to know many other young couples, many of whom are now married, who followed similar chaste, God-centered dating relationships. It is just simply false to claim that these things only happen in courtship and not in dating. That comes from a very false understanding of what good dating really looks like. It is also offensive to be told that my relationship can’t possibly be chaste, God-centered or purpose driven simply because it is not a courtship. Courting and dating differ essentially in that when courting one never spends time alone with their significant other. Besides that I know of no essential difference between the two.

-Byrnwiga

 

[Byrnwiga]

It is much easier to fail in ones marital duties if someone, especially the woman, is not attracted to their spouse. Have you read some of the threads on here that talk about men(and sometimes women) who are stuck in marriages where their spouse just doesn’t want to have relations because they aren’t “in love”? It really is a very important aspect of marriage. No, it is not a complete requirement, I actually argued that quite extensively in another thread here in the past, but it is extremely important and helpful. Spouses are supposed to be attracted to each other. Thats how God created marriage. I am merely trying to make sure the OP doesn’t fall into the trap of belittling such attraction or worse, beginning to view it as a negative, shameful, or harmful thing.

I seem to have made a mistake in my wording: I meant to say “physical attraction”, but I suppose “attraction” in general works. I have read such threads that you specify, though the [possibility of] a lack of relations doesn’t really bother me and so I would not consider myself to be “stuck” in such a marriage. That being said, I don’t think it’s particularly important (regardless of whether it’s encouraged or not); this is corroborated (ostensibly) by the lack of it being a requirement. I’ll grant that it could be the ideal that spouses are attracted to each other. Physical attraction alone in a marriage without any other common ground, that is, a relationship/marriage based solely on physical attraction, is indeed a negative thing.

but she may just find herself with a much smaller pool of people to find a spouse from

That is the whole point of finding someone to marry! One is trying to reduce a very large pool of people to just one person. If this can be done quickly and with little effort, that would be a good thing, no?

-Byrnwiga

 

[underacloud]

Sorry for the long post - but what do you guys think?

There’s some wisdom in there, but it’s generally not a model I would suggest – at least not as rigidly as it’s expressed - for reasons I’ll elaborate on a little…

“I think these steps can help us develop Godly romantic relationships. These stages are casual friendship, deeper friendship, purposeful intamcy with integrity and engagment.”

There’s a lot of focus on friendship. Have you heard of the problem of the “friendship trap” or “friends zone”? That’s where a girl and guy find it hard to progress their relationship because they have developed such a habit of friendship. It can be hard to move past this. And the friends zone can be very confusing for one or both parties.

Friendship is an important foundation for marriage, but does it need to precede a girlfriend-boyfriend relationship or can it develop from it or alongside it? Knowing the other person before embarking on a GF-BF relationship is wise, but waiting too long can deprive the relationship of its natural rhythm.

Also, given that approach, once you decide to move past friendship there’s suddenly so much pressure on the both of you. There’s little in-between phase where you can enjoy being together in a relationship based on getting to know each other well and being committed to each other in exploring that (ie exclusive), yet not having the weight of marriage hanging on it. Talk about pressure…some guys will be scared off if the only options are friend or husband-in-training.

I believe the young man needs to say something like this: “We’re growing closer in friendship and I need to be clear about my motives. With your parent’s permission, I want to explore the possiblity of marriage. I’m not interested in playing the game of boyfriend and girlfriend. I’m ready to be tested by you, your family, and those who love you. My desire is to win your heart.”

As I said earlier, if you persist with this approach, you may find it hard to meet good, well-meaning Catholic men who fit your ideals. I can’t imagine any man saying that to you or your parents…so what next? What happens when prince charming doesn’t arrive?
Anyway, these are just my opinions. I would encourage you to perhaps explore another perspective by reading the Song of Songs. This explores the passionate love God intended between husband and wife, which mirrors the love of God for His people. The Song of Songs expresses a love that is urgent, physical, impulsive, desperate, gentle, and transcendent. I’m not saying one shouldn’t be careful and deliberate in their approach to courtship/dating/whatever, but one should not be so cautious as to lose the passion, attraction, and desire that God intended to bring man and woman together. Like I said, relationships can have a rhythm to them, and if you deprive it of that rhythm, you may stunt it before it can develop.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

**
Also, given that approach, once you decide to move past friendship there’s suddenly so much pressure on the both of you. There’s little in-between phase where you can enjoy being together in a relationship based on getting to know each other well and being committed to each other in exploring that (ie exclusive), yet not having the weight of marriage hanging on it. Talk about pressure…some guys will be scared off if the only options are friend or husband-in-training.**

 There is the season of deepening friendship, where you are involved as friends looking into a relationship, and then the relationship itself.  And the young man, I don't believe, is husband-in-training, but a partner in discerning God's will.

**As I said earlier, if you persist with this approach, you may find it hard to meet good, well-meaning Catholic men who fit your ideals. I can’t imagine any man saying that to you or your parents…so what next? What happens when prince charming doesn’t arrive?
Anyway, these are just my opinions. **
Actually, I do believe there is a young man who will say that to my parents and myself - the one who respects my standards and desires the best for me and God's plan for my life. I don't need men lining up from miles around to ask for my hand, I only need one - the right one.

 

[underacloud]

There is the season of deepening friendship, where you are involved as friends looking into a relationship, and then the relationship itself. And the young man, I don’t believe, is husband-in-training, but a partner in discerning God’s will.

I have no idea what a season of deepening friendship means? Does the guy understand that you are going to enter into a relationship? Is this period of deepening friendship exclusive to the two of you, or do you enter such deep friendships with multiple suitors? What actually triggers moving on?

If you only decide to move on once the two of you agree that you want to discern marriage together, that sure sounds like pressure to me.

Actually, I do believe there is a young man who will say that to my parents and myself - the one who respects my standards and desires the best for me and God’s plan for my life. I don’t need men lining up from miles around to ask for my hand, I only need one - the right one.

One can desire the best for someone and respect God’s plan for them without going about things in this particular way. You may have unwavering faith that God will deliver your husband to you (if that is His will), but keep in mind that we need to cooperate with God’s plans for us. We all hope our soul-mate will arrive, that they’ll meet all our ideals, and that we won’t make any mistakes along the way. Reality is typically a little different and you’ll find that the man you marry will NOT meet all your ideals…so you’ll need to decide along the way which one’s are uncompromisable. I think adherence to a rigid formula for the progression of your relatsionship, and the manner in which the guy is to conduct himself, are not the more important ideals to stick to.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

I have no idea what a season of deepening friendship means? Does the guy understand that you are going to enter into a relationship? Is this period of deepening friendship exclusive to the two of you, or do you enter such deep friendships with multiple suitors? What actually triggers moving on?
If you only decide to move on once the two of you agree that you want to discern marriage together, that sure sounds like pressure to me.

 I'll first explain a deepening of a friendship.  As per said by Joshua Harris in "I kissed dating goodbye," the defintion of the relationship at this stage is this: "The first priorty is to know each other well as individuals."    
 It is in purpose-less dating that the dilema of "twiglight zone between recreational dating and enggement occurs.  Neither person knows exactly whatthe other is thinking.  'Are we dating just for fun, or is this serious? What's our committement?'  We want to avoid all states of limbo, so doing so will involve honesty and courage on the part of both people."  This is when the young man steps in, takes the lead and provides direction for the relationship so it doesn't result in a perpetual "friend zone."  
 Realizing that this is pressure, it's a huge diecsion! Yes, yes it is.  Yet, you have to realize that this is the purpose of a God-centered courtship.  The success of the courtship is found in answering the question of marriage.  That is infact, courtships goal.  You enter into the courtship knowing that the next step is deciding if marriage is the right step for the couple.  Big questions? Yes.  But neccesary if we want to escape wandering in directionless relationships.

One can desire the best for someone and respect God’s plan for them without going about things in this particular way. You may have unwavering faith that God will deliver your husband to you (if that is His will), but keep in mind that we need to cooperate with God’s plans for us. We all hope our soul-mate will arrive, that they’ll meet all our ideals, and that we won’t make any mistakes along the way. Reality is typically a little different and you’ll find that the man you marry will NOT meet all your ideals…so you’ll need to decide along the way which one’s are uncompromisable. I think adherence to a rigid formula for the progression of your relatsionship, and the manner in which the guy is to conduct himself, are not the more important ideals to stick to

When I base my standards in courtship, and I base them following God's will for my life and His plan revealed to me through prayer, scripture, the Church, and trusted friends and fmaily, I put complete trust in His plans.  
 Doubting that the "right guy" will ever show up is in fact doubting God's ability to fufill His own plan.  Yet wavering in my standards so that I can accomadate a young man is not the way that I will fufill His will.  If a young man is seriously interested in pursuing my heart as his future wife, he will instead rise to my standards.  
  All this time, I keep in mind that I am not looking for a young man to "complete me," as the world advertises.  I am already a very complete and whole person in Christ, as a Child of God.  I already have the perfect man in my life - Christ Jesus himself!  And it is His approval that I seek the most, not that of man.

 

[thewanderer]

I seem to have made a mistake in my wording: I meant to say “physical attraction”, but I suppose “attraction” in general works. I have read such threads that you specify,** though the [possibility of] a lack of relations doesn’t really bother me and so I would not consider myself to be “stuck” in such a marriage**. That being said, I don’t think it’s particularly important (regardless of whether it’s encouraged or not); this is corroborated (ostensibly) by the lack of it being a requirement. I’ll grant that it could be the ideal that spouses are attracted to each other. Physical attraction alone in a marriage without any other common ground, that is, a relationship/marriage based solely on physical attraction, is indeed a negative thing.

The problem I was pointing out here is not that you might end up feeling stuck, but that your spouse might, which is serious stuff. If you would be ok with possibly not having relations indefinately, that is absolutely 100% something you need to be upfront with your future spouse before you marry. I would brush up on the Church’s teachings with regard to the marital debt and look into how damaging and hurtful it can be to ones spouse to go without relations for long periods of time. I’m sorry, but the fact that you seem to have no problem with the idea of little to no relations within marriage is a little bit of a red flag. It is part and parcel of the whole deal, which was why I was pointing out that physical attraction, and attraction in general, is so important. Having relations isn’t something you can just brush aside, it is actually something that you owe to your spouse, you can’t just refuse because you aren’t in the mood. Perhaps you do realize all of this, and if so I apologize for acting as though you don’t, its just that some of what you have written raises red flags as it could possibly be written from the perspective of someone who does not understand and recognize this important aspect of marriage.

That is the whole point of finding someone to marry! One is trying to reduce a very large pool of people to just one person. If this can be done quickly and with little effort, that would be a good thing, no?

-Byrnwiga

Well, yes, so long as it is done well and so long as one doesn’t get stuck in the unfortunate situation, which most certainly does happen, of holding on to some ideal and so passing up all the marriageble men and finding oneself still single at a late stage in life wishing one had a family. Again, I’m not saying that this will happen to the OP if she courts, I just want to put it out there as something for her to think about, because it would be a very unfortunate trap to fall into.

 

[Byrnwiga]

The problem I was pointing out here is not that you might end up feeling stuck, but that your spouse might, which is serious stuff. If you would be ok with possibly not having relations indefinately, that is absolutely 100% something you need to be upfront with your future spouse before you marry. I would brush up on the Church’s teachings with regard to the marital debt and look into how damaging and hurtful it can be to ones spouse to go without relations for long periods of time. I’m sorry, but the fact that you seem to have no problem with the idea of little to no relations within marriage is a little bit of a red flag. It is part and parcel of the whole deal, which was why I was pointing out that physical attraction, and attraction in general, is so important. Having relations isn’t something you can just brush aside, it is actually something that you owe to your spouse, you can’t just refuse because you aren’t in the mood. Perhaps you do realize all of this, and if so I apologize for acting as though you don’t, its just that some of what you have written raises red flags as it could possibly be written from the perspective of someone who does not understand and recognize this important aspect of marriage.

I see where the misunderstanding may be coming from. To clarify: if my future wife isn’t interested in relations, I wouldn’t mind. This is what I meant when I said I wouldn’t feel stuck in a marriage where the other spouse wasn’t interested. If they were interested in doing so, that’s fine, too. Does that make more sense?

Well, yes, so long as it is done well and so long as one doesn’t get stuck in the unfortunate situation, which most certainly does happen, of holding on to some ideal and so passing up all the marriageble men and finding oneself still single at a late stage in life wishing one had a family. Again, I’m not saying that this will happen to the OP if she courts, I just want to put it out there as something for her to think about, because it would be a very unfortunate trap to fall into.

There are millions of men in the world of which a fairly substantial number would remain even with quite high standards. If one does nothing to limit those numbers, at least consciously, regret may emerge over time (especially if one encounters many other suitable people). I think the decision to court, and with that approach specifically, will result in a different ‘population’ being attracted (a good thing, in my mind).

-Byrnwiga

P.S. One more clarification: due to my dismal paragraphing, the line “That being said, I don’t think it’s particularly important (regardless of whether it’s encouraged or not); this is corroborated (ostensibly) by the lack of it being a requirement.” was in reference to any sort of attraction.

 

[thewanderer]

I see where the misunderstanding may be coming from. To clarify: if my future wife isn’t interested in relations, I wouldn’t mind. This is what I meant when I said I wouldn’t feel stuck in a marriage where the other spouse wasn’t interested. If they were interested in doing so, that’s fine, too. Does that make more sense?

The fact that you are male makes no difference, though I am glad to hear that you were talking about the case of being ok with it if your spouse decided they were not interested in relations. However, it is still super important, even though you are male, to consider what your future spouses feelings on a lack of relations would be. I will say it again, if you know before marriage that you would be totally fine with little to no relations this is something that absolutely must be disclosed to your future spouse before marriage. Women are hurt just as much as men by a lack of interest in relations from their spouse, it just tends to happen less frequently than the other way around.

There are millions of men in the world of which a fairly substantial number would remain even with quite high standards. If one does nothing to limit those numbers, at least consciously, regret may emerge over time (especially if one encounters many other suitable people). I think the decision to court, and with that approach specifically, will result in a different ‘population’ being attracted (a good thing, in my mind).

-Byrnwiga

Yes, one must find a way to narrow it down, but depending on the men in ones vicinity different methods of narrowing it down will have different effects. Sometimes narrowing to courting is completely unnecessary to find a good man, sometimes it is extremely helpful, sometimes it narrows your options to such slim pickings that you will never find someone. I am simply trying to make sure that the OP is aware of this third possibility. Sometimes people are too picky and get stuck, so she should be aware of this and understand that if she doesn’t find someone to court and she still wants a family, she might have to think about widening the net a little bit. There really are a lot of very good men in this world who date and would be put off by courtship. Again, I’m not saying courtship can never work, just be aware of the possible outcomes of insisting on it so that you will be content and not end up with regrets.

P.S. One more clarification: due to my dismal paragraphing, the line “That being said, I don’t think it’s particularly important (regardless of whether it’s encouraged or not); this is corroborated (ostensibly) by the lack of it being a requirement.” was in reference to any sort of attraction.

Just because it is not required does not mean it is not important. being good communicators is not required of couples planning to marry, yet it is absolutely essential to a succesful marriage. Being capable of managing finances, willing and able to compromise etc are all extremely important for a succesful marriage, yet none of them are requirements for marriage. Similarly attraction is very important for a succesful marriage even though it is not a requirement. Now, is it posssible to have a succesful marriage without one of the above? Of course, it will just be much more difficult. Which is why I wanted to make sure that the OP was aware of the importance of this aspect of marriage discernment. Is attraction what a marriage is based on? of course not, but the OP seems to understand that part of marriage quite well, I am just trying to make sure she gets a good well rounded understanding of the different aspects of such a relationship. Attraction is important.

 

[underacloud]

It is in purpose-less dating that the dilema of “twiglight zone between recreational dating and enggement occurs. Neither person knows exactly whatthe other is thinking. ‘Are we dating just for fun, or is this serious? What’s our committement?’ We want to avoid all states of limbo, so doing so will involve honesty and courage on the part of both people.” This is when the young man steps in, takes the lead and provides direction for the relationship so it doesn’t result in a perpetual “friend zone.”
Realizing that this is pressure, it’s a huge diecsion! Yes, yes it is. Yet, you have to realize that this is the purpose of a God-centered courtship. The success of the courtship is found in answering the question of marriage. That is infact, courtships goal. You enter into the courtship knowing that the next step is deciding if marriage is the right step for the couple. Big questions? Yes. But neccesary if we want to escape wandering in directionless relationships.

I’m not sure anyone here has suggested “purposeless dating”? I only ever dated with a purpose…to get to know the person and see if things progressed further…if I knew that it would not lead to marriage, I ended it…if it was someone I felt was a potentially suitable spouse, I continued (sometimes they didn’t though).

What you are advocating doesn’t seem much different to dating…other than the supervision and the more explicit (rather than implicit and gradual) pressure of discerning marriage from the very start.

When I base my standards in courtship, and I base them following God’s will for my life and His plan revealed to me through prayer, scripture, the Church, and trusted friends and fmaily, I put complete trust in His plans.
Doubting that the “right guy” will ever show up is in fact doubting God’s ability to fufill His own plan. Yet wavering in my standards so that I can accomadate a young man is not the way that I will fufill His will. If a young man is seriously interested in pursuing my heart as his future wife, he will instead rise to my standards.

I don’t think you’ll find that scriptures or the Church reveal a model of courtship over dating. You seem to presume that your model is more holy than others. Anyway…

It’s great to trust in God. You also have to cooperate with God. I trust that God will provide for me and my family, and I cooperate with this by going to work each day. I hoped that God would lead me to my bride, and trusted He would if that was His plan, but I also made sure to go to events to meet people my age and I dated several girls before finally finding my lovely wife. My wife is not perfect, so I had to lower some standards I would like to have stuck to, all things being equal (but don’t tell her that). But all things are not equal, and the guy you marry will be a sinner, just like the rest of us. He will have faults, and he will not live up to your ideals; sorry to break this to you.

 

[Byrnwiga]

The fact that you are male makes no difference, though I am glad to hear that you were talking about the case of being ok with it if your spouse decided they were not interested in relations. However, it is still super important, even though you are male, to consider what your future spouses feelings on a lack of relations would be. I will say it again, if you know before marriage that you would be totally fine with little to no relations this is something that absolutely must be disclosed to your future spouse before marriage. Women are hurt just as much as men by a lack of interest in relations from their spouse, it just tends to happen less frequently than the other way around.

My approach would be letting the spouse determine frequency/presence of relations. I must point out that I wouldn’t be refusing any relations; I understand that is forbidden. What I am articulating is that the frequency of relations would be determined by the minimum of two frequencies (if not just one). I am curious as to how that could be considered objectionable. The topic would of course be broached at some point in the dating/courting process.

Yes, one must find a way to narrow it down, but depending on the men in ones vicinity different methods of narrowing it down will have different effects. Sometimes narrowing to courting is completely unnecessary to find a good man, sometimes it is extremely helpful, sometimes it narrows your options to such slim pickings that you will never find someone. I am simply trying to make sure that the OP is aware of this third possibility. Sometimes people are too picky and get stuck, so she should be aware of this and understand that if she doesn’t find someone to court and she still wants a family, she might have to think about widening the net a little bit. There really are a lot of very good men in this world who date and would be put off by courtship. Again, I’m not saying courtship can never work, just be aware of the possible outcomes of insisting on it so that you will be content and not end up with regrets.

In general, starting with the absolute highest standards and strictest methods is a good idea (in my mind). If that is fruitless, one may slowly ease restrictions (within reason) until a suitable person is found. This thread, I believe, is mainly centered on the aforementioned starting point.

Just because it is not required does not mean it is not important. being good communicators is not required of couples planning to marry, yet it is absolutely essential to a succesful marriage. Being capable of managing finances, willing and able to compromise etc are all extremely important for a succesful marriage, yet none of them are requirements for marriage. Similarly attraction is very important for a succesful marriage even though it is not a requirement. Now, is it posssible to have a succesful marriage without one of the aboce? Of course, it will just be much more difficult. Which is why I wanted to make sure that the OP was aware of the importance of this aspect of marriage discernment. Is attraction what a marriage is based on? of course not, but the OP seems to understand that part of marriage quite well, I am just trying to make sure she gets a good well rounded understanding of the different aspects of such a relationship. Attraction is important.

There are indeed many things that are not required, but are important. I am simply stating that attraction (especially physical) is not as important as other optional/non-required things. In fact, for me, it is near the bottom.

-Byrnwiga