Explaining the process of Courting

[thewanderer]

Again, this article is not distinguishing between different kinds of dating. I can go through it if you want to help show you the distinctions I am seeing, but there is no further distinction given here between dating and courting.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

Again, this article is not distinguishing between different kinds of dating. I can go through it if you want to help show you the distinctions I am seeing, but there is no further distinction given here between dating and courting.

Allright, here is another article on the subject:

***The main difference between dating and courtship is the attitude that one assumes towards relationships and the activities in which the couple engages before marriage. Contemporary dating is generally a self-focused past time. It is characterized by expectations of physical/emotional intimacy without commitment. Self-gratification is paramount. If either party is no longer gratified the relationship ends; thus, a cycle of short-term relationship begins and continues.

In courtship, both individuals have the understanding that marriage is the eventual goal of the relationship. Courtship takes a more thoughtful, long- term approach to a premarital relationship. The emphasis is on developing friendships and seeking compatibility in ones future mate. Courtship doesn’t actually begin until each feels that the other person could be a perspective marriage partner. Their time together is spent getting to know teach other better through conversation and group socialization, rather than sexual intimacy.

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[Baelor]

They have to be the leader, as they would be in a possible future marriage, to give the relationship a direction!
If they do not want to committ to anything beyond friendship, than that is all they will ever be, just friends.

Plenty of godly couples started with women expressing their desire to date with men. Men do not need to initiate relationships.

There is definatly a place for personal discussions, it’s in that courting, all the time isn’t spent alone, so you can get to know the young man/young woman in their enviroment, not just behind a mask they put on to give the best impression.

The idea that typical dating involves people putting on masks is extremely offensive and just as untrue.

1. A young man and woman do not court until they are ready for their relationship to move toward marriage.

Not unique to courting.

1. The couple’s parents are involved in establishing the boundaries for the relationships and have an opinion on whether or not a guy or gal is a wise potential mate.

Not unique to dating for youngsters. I question the appropriateness of adults “establishing boundaries” for their grown children.

Exodus 20:12 tells us to honor our father and mother. This is true for all areas of our lives. Involving your parents in your romantic relationships is a great way to honor them and to make sure that your plans for your love life line up with theirs.

It is not a requirement according to Catholic teaching. The Church is explicit on this. The Church also does not state that there are any benefits to relationships from parental involvement in the manner described.

1. He is not afraid to show his mother and sisters that he loves them. The way he treats them is the way he will treat me.

Why is this? I mean, I understand, but why the mother and sisters specifically? If he treats his brothers like ****, that is fine?

1. He wants his children to be raised and taught by their mother through homeschooling and me being a stay at home Mom.

I would not limit your children’s educational options this early, but whatever – that is your call.

1. He is the man God has chosen for me and the one that I have prayed for all of my life.

Catholicism absolutely rejects the notion of a soul mate or that God picks out individuals for other individuals.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Two observations here:

1. It just seems as though you’ve read a few articles and books and have made up your mind. I don’t see a lot of independent thought on this one. Everything you post about it is either a direct excerpt or a regurgitation of these excerpts in your own words.
2. This seems to not only line up far more with evangelical Protestantism, but actually flies in the face of everything the Catholic church teaches about dating. Things like guarding your heart, bring free to walk away at any time because you aren’t committed, focusing on discerning marriage, not committing to it, etc.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

Plenty of godly couples started with women expressing their desire to date with men. Men do not need to initiate relationships.

These are my standards, and I wish to be pursued, not to do the pursuing. So this is one of the requirements for me.

The idea that typical dating involves people putting on masks is extremely offensive and just as untrue.
I respectfully disagree. When one in typical modern dating, spends time only with one person and does’t observe them in their enviroment and how they treat others, they have a false impression of the person.

Not unique to dating for youngsters. I question the appropriateness of adults “establishing boundaries” for their grown children.
I don’t question the approprietness of my parents helping me with boundries in a relationship. They are my parents, and I trust their advice. They would be the first ones I seek out in a problem.

**Why is this? I mean, I understand, but why the mother and sisters specifically? If he treats his brothers like **, that is fine?

Mothers and sisters are women in his life who he interacts with on a daily basis, as he would be interacting with me on a daily basis. His interactions with his family is an importan indication to how he would treat me.

I would not limit your children’s educational options this early, but whatever – that is your call.

I have been raised this way and this is how I wish to raise my children, as I believe it is the best way to strengthen their faith. (this however is a sepreate debate)

Catholicism absolutely rejects the notion of a soul mate or that God picks out individuals for other individuals

I really have to question this. Can you give me evidence? I’m not sure I’m comprehending what your saying. I believe that God will guide me to the young man that I am to marry if this is His will for me. Are you saying God cannot do this? Becuase this is very contradictory to God Himself and His abilty to accomplish anything.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Why is this? I mean, I understand, but why the mother and sisters specifically? If he treats his brothers like ****, that is fine?

Catholicism absolutely rejects the notion of a soul mate or that God picks out individuals for other individuals.

You know who I pay extra attention to when it comes to the way dates treat people? Wait staff. If he can’t treat someone who is waiting on him for very little money with courtesy and respect, as well as tipping well I don’t want anything to do with him.

I did not know that about Catholicism. I’m glad to hear that though, it seems to me like the relationship is better if you are in it because you want to be and chose to commit yourself to it, than if you’re there because you feel you have to. That outlook always creeped me out about evangelical Protestantism. That pretty much coffin nails the courting thing.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Wikipedia seems to make the most sense of courting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtship

IMHO, though, you’re too young to start courting.

This is a nice quotation:

Courtship, as described by Craig Hill is “a father’s agreeing to work with a qualified young man to win his daughter’s heart.” It greatly involves the community of people around the couple, particularly the woman’s father, in cultivating the relationship between these two people. It differs to dating in the sense that it is not based on the electrical feeling within oneself, but rather a deeper form of love.

 

[thewanderer]

Allright, here is another article on the subject:

The main difference between dating and courtship is the attitude that one assumes towards relationships and the activities in which the couple engages before marriage. Contemporary dating is generally a self-focused past time. It is characterized by expectations of physical/emotional intimacy without commitment. Self-gratification is paramount. If either party is no longer gratified the relationship ends; thus, a cycle of short-term relationship begins and continues.

In courtship, both individuals have the understanding that marriage is the eventual goal of the relationship. Courtship takes a more thoughtful, long- term approach to a premarital relationship. The emphasis is on developing friendships and seeking compatibility in ones future mate. Courtship doesn’t actually begin until each feels that the other person could be a perspective marriage partner. Their time together is spent getting to know teach other better through conversation and group socialization, rather than sexual intimacy.

First of all note that it qualifies dating and so is comparing courting to one form of dating. Secondly, it is just plain wrong if it tries to claim that its understanding of contemporary dating is the only form of dating still in use today, or even [EDIT: most] prevalent today. Even if it were the only form of dating at work today (which it most definately is not) that would not mean that dating itself is a bad idea, but that particular kind of dating. I’m sorry but it is just wrong to claim that dating is "a self-focused past time. It is characterized by expectations of physical/emotional intimacy without commitment. Self-gratification is paramount. If either party is no longer gratified the relationship ends"

As I replied to some of your previous comments on the differences between dating and courtship this is just plain false and offensive. My relationship with my FH is not a courtship. We went the route of dating. Was our relationship ever a ‘selfish, self-focused past time characterized by expectations of physical/emotional intimacy without commitment’’? The answer to that question is a most emphatic NO. To equate this understanding/version of dating with dating itself is offensive to all those who date without this attitude. Please stop trying to equate selfish dating with a good, healthy dating relationship.

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

I can’t add anything to what the others are saying and saying well, but it really does sound as if you see yourself as a modern day princess in a fortress waiting for a prince to fight his way past the dangers, tests, and trials that you and your father have put in the way and the very fact that this prince has navigated his way through the dangers, passed all the tests, and met all the requirements will be enough to win your heart.

It’s wonderful to have high standards and know what you want, but there’s more to it than that!

 

[thewanderer]

Ok, two things

The idea that typical dating involves people putting on masks is extremely offensive and just as untrue.
I respectfully disagree. When one in typical modern dating, spends time only with one person and does’t observe them in their enviroment and how they treat others, they have a false impression of the person.

This assumes that when a couple dates they never see each other around other people which is just completely false. I spent a lot of time with my FH’s family, and still do, as well as hanging out together with friends, when studying, going on hikes etc etc in many, many different scenarios. So again I would agree that the idea that people who date put on masks and can’t get to know each other well is simply false. Are you really trying to claim that me and my FH clearly did not get to know each other well just because we did not court each other? If you are not willing to make this claim than you must admit that this is not talking about dating in general but a specific kind of dating.

Not unique to dating for youngsters. I question the appropriateness of adults “establishing boundaries” for their grown children.
I don’t question the approprietness of my parents helping me with boundries in a relationship. They are my parents, and I trust their advice. They would be the first ones I seek out in a problem.

I really applaud you on the fact that you seek your parents advice and are willing to listen to them. I think the point that is being made though is that the level of the involvement and the kind of authority parents have over there children’s lives changes as their children grow up. The appropriate passage from the CCC is this

2217 As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."22 Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so.
As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Here is a link to the CCC for reference
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7U.HTM

 

[underacloud]

It just seems as though you’ve read a few articles and books and have made up your mind. I don’t see a lot of independent thought on this one. Everything you post about it is either a direct excerpt or a regurgitation of these excerpts in your own words.

I agree. It’s very hard to put forward an alternative view to the OP because she has an established view on dating that is not based on experience or the opinions offered by people in this thread, but on the opinions of people writing against dating. Many of the negative opinions towards “dating” that the OP has raised are issues I completely agree with…but it’s a bit of a strawman. I think the OP confuses all dating with secular, casual dating (maybe or maybe not involving fornication). There is such a thing as chaste, Catholic, God-centred dating that it aimed, perhaps in a more gradual sense, towards mariage discernment.

 

[underacloud]

I have standards, I do! And I don’t want to go out into the world advertisting that I would like a slacker who is lazy, can’t support my future family, has no respect for me as a person, and isn’t even thinking about marriage. If I start with my standards low, I cannot raise them.
Standards to be lowerd? Physical expectations. Maybe I would like to marry a young man who is taller than me. But if I feel like God is calling me to another man who is shorter than me, I’m definatly not going to tell God No, just because he is short.
Standards to raise high and keep high? Friendship, spiritual leadership, respect of me as a woman and not as an object, CATHOLIC, love for God and others, etc. When my standards are high, the young man, if truely interested is going to rise to them.
The way I’m reading it (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that you are afraid for me becuase I will have such a small dating pool - yes! That is what I’m looking for! I don’t want to have to weed through the worthless guys who have no intention of seriousness and are only in it for what’s in it for them. I’m looking for a young man who I can see spending the rest of my life with. And if he’s scared off just by the fact that I advocate courtship, he’s obviously not the right one.

My fear for you isn’t merely that you man have a small dating pool, but that you may reject suitable men out of hand simply because they don’t share the same ideal with regard to dating vs courtship. I agree with many of the other standards you have raised, in this and subsequent posts…Catholic, love of God, love of his family, respect towards your family, open to life, etc…I simply disagree that you would only find such a man via your pre-defined approach. Suppose there is such a man, who fulfills all these standards, except this particular one…that he sees dating as the appropriate approach? You say obviously he’s not the right one. I’m sorry, but I find that naive. You’re looking for a man who will be a good leader of your family, but if he shows any sort of leadership on this certain issue, he’s out? You seem to have such a strict, structured approach to the whole thing that I fail to see how any young man could show real leadership. So he can show leadership, as long as it meets with your and your father’s approval…but that’s not leadership at all.

This thread seems to boil down to you explaining an abstract approach to courtship over dating, based on no experience of either approach and seemingly only reading the opinions of people who already support your conclusions. You reject dating, not based on the approaches of good Catholic men and women who have found great spouses, as shared in this thread, but on a strawman built up by the writers you seem to cling to. Others and I have tried to help you see that your understanding of dating is narrow, and that dating can be conducted in a manner not too dissimilar from many of your ideals. I don’t think we’re making any more progress now and these are issues you’ll have to work through for yourself once you actually start to experience dating/courtship/etc.

 

[thewanderer]

In courtship, both individuals have the understanding that marriage is the eventual goal of the relationship. Courtship takes a more thoughtful, long- term approach to a premarital relationship. The emphasis is on developing friendships and seeking compatibility in ones future mate. Courtship doesn’t actually begin until each feels that the other person could be a perspective marriage partner. Their time together is spent getting to know teach other better through conversation and group socialization, rather than sexual intimacy.

Another note since this seems to claim that this is what distinguishes courtship from dating, that this essentially claims that those who date have sex. Which is so false I don’t even know where to start. It also assumes that those who date do not understand that marriage is the eventual goal of their relationship, that they do not take a thoughtful approach to a premarital relationship, that they do not put any emphasis on devoloping friendships or determining whether or not they would be compatible as spouses. All of which are false and offensive. I’m sorry if it sounds like a broken record here, but the thing is, all of these sources you are getting your information from are setting up a false dichotomy between casual, sex-oriented, purposeless dating and courtship. These are not the only options. There is also the option of healthy, marriage oriented dating which essentially differs from courtship in that when in such a dating relationship the couple is ok with spending some time together without others present, when courting they are not.

 

[Chevaleresse]

My fear for you isn’t merely that you man have a small dating pool, but that you may reject suitable men out of hand simply because they don’t share the same ideal with regard to dating vs courtship. I agree with many of the other standards you have raised, in this and subsequent posts…Catholic, love of God, love of his family, respect towards your family, open to life, etc…I simply disagree that you would only find such a man via your pre-defined approach. Suppose there is such a man, who fulfills all these standards, except this particular one…that he sees dating as the appropriate approach? You say obviously he’s not the right one. I’m sorry, but I find that naive.

If he loves her and respects her, he will do that. If it is simply a matter of style, rather than principle, there is no problem with the young woman insisting upon courting.

You’re looking for a man who will be a good leader of your family, but if he shows any sort of leadership on this certain issue, he’s out? You seem to have such a strict, structured approach to the whole thing that I fail to see how any young man could show real leadership. So he can show leadership, as long as it meets with your and your father’s approval…but that’s not leadership at all.

You don’t understand leadership. Leadership is not always getting your way, or always agreeing with others, or not having the wisdom to see the advice of others especially elders. Perhaps as Byron said, “When we think we lead, we are most led” or Mirecourt, “I am their leader, I really ought to follow them!”.

This thread seems to boil down to you explaining an abstract approach to courtship over dating, based on no experience of either approach and seemingly only reading the opinions of people who already support your conclusions.

Do you have experience with courting as she describes?

You reject dating, not based on the approaches of good Catholic men and women who have ound great spouses, as shared in this thread, but on a strawman built up by the writers you seem to cling to.

I don’t see many success stories. I see lots of failure in the world when it comes to dating the way some people in this thread are espousing. I guess calling dating “good” makes it good, then? Or simply expecting people to behave while making no effort for contingencies?

That’s naive.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Another note since this seems to claim that this is what distinguishes courtship from dating, that this essentially claims that those who date have sex. Which is so false I don’t even know where to start. It also assumes that those who date do not understand that marriage is the eventual goal of their relationship, that they do not take a thoughtful approach to a premarital relationship, that they do not put any emphasis on devoloping friendships or determining whether or not they would be compatible as spouses. All of which are false and offensive. I’m sorry if it sounds like a broken record here, but the thing is, all of these sources you are getting your information from are setting up a false dichotomy between casual, sex-oriented, purposeless dating and courtship. These are not the only options. There is also the option of healthy, marriage oriented dating which essentially differs from courtship in that when in such a dating relationship the couple is ok with spending some time together without others present, when courting they are not.

I gotta tell you, people her age are all about “friends with benefits” and “hooking up.” They very rarely go on dates where the young man picks the young lady up at her home, takes her out for a nice evening (pays for everything), and delivers her back to her home with a peck on the cheek at most. No, in her generation, there is an epidemic of drugs and drinking, and partying until blackout.

I’m not saying that purity and chastity are completely outdated, but she is swimming upstream just to expect a “real” date, let alone courtship. And her assumptions about dating and the “hookup” scene are completely realistic and valid, based on what I have heard from my teenage sons. (One is now 21)

 

[thewanderer]

I gotta tell you, people her age are all about “friends with benefits” and “hooking up.” They very rarely go on dates where the young man picks the young lady up at her home, takes her out for a nice evening (pays for everything), and delivers her back to her home with a peck on the cheek at most. No, in her generation, there is an epidemic of drugs and drinking, and partying until blackout.

I’m not saying that purity and chastity are completely outdated, but she is swimming upstream just to expect a “real” date, let alone courtship. And her assumptions about dating and the “hookup” scene are completely realistic and valid, based on what I have heard from my teenage sons. (One is now 21)

Being in my early 20’s myself, I really am not that far off from her generation. I am not trying to claim that there is no bad dating culture, there most certainly is, I’m just trying to point out that it is not the only dating culture. I went to a Catholic college full of Catholics truly devoted to their faith and I saw many good, healthy, pure dating relationships, many of which have resulted in marriage. I have similarly been in such a relationship and am looking forward to marriage as soon as it is financially possible. My point is not to belittle the problems with many peoples methods and views of dating, or to say that one shouldn’t court, it is to try and make sure she is aware that there is another option. That not all dating is bad, purposeless, selfish, and sex-oriented. To claim that all dating is bad, as she is implicitly claiming, is very offensive to me and my friends from college, and anyone else who has been involved in healthy dating relationships. It is very good that the OP is looking for a good healthy relationship rather than a selfish, pleasure seeking relationship. I am very glad to hear that she is, but if she is going to try and explain why she wants to court instead of date she should be careful not to offend anyone she is talking to by making false claims. Currently the way she speaks about the difference between courtship and dating will end up offending good people and very possibly turn away good matches for her. I am honestly and sincerely trying to help.

 

[underacloud]

If he loves her and respects her, he will do that. If it is simply a matter of style, rather than principle, there is no problem with the young woman insisting upon courting.

How does he know yet if he loves her? He hasn’t had a chance to get to know her properly. Love, and discerning marriage, is the goal of courting/dating, not the basis for it.

As for a difference between style and principle, that’s what I’m trying to understand. We seem to be presented with an argument that there are solid principles for why courting is better than dating, but many of us fail to see the distinction. If it’s merely a matter of style, then let’s say that.

You don’t understand leadership. Leadership is not always getting your way, or always agreeing with others, or not having the wisdom to see the advice of others especially elders. Perhaps as Byron said, “When we think we lead, we are most led” or Mirecourt, “I am their leader, I really ought to follow them!”.

I never said a leader has to get their own way. But I did ask what happens when a young man ticks all the other boxes, but has a very different view in this one regard. Is this really a crucial standard to uphold, compared to the myriad other ways in which young men may fail to meet ideals for a spouse?

I’m not saying courting has to be thrown out in favour of dating. I’m trying to understand what room there is for flexibility. Such as “dates” in public without supervision. Such as conversations in which the man and woman can express themselves openly and honestly without it being replayed word for word to the parents for scrutiny. Such as the man and woman making decisions for themselves regarding their future, perhaps with the advice of trusted family and friends, but ultimately based on their own choices.

The OP has no experience yet with how her parents will receive her suitors. If she finds that no man is good enough for their little girl (a fairly common initial response among fathers!), she may find that her approach to courtship needs some revision. Or she may find a lack of suitors, since many good, honorable, faithful Catholic men simply don’t see it as the way to find a spouse. She even acknowledged this earlier in the thread (post #33), then a few days later kick-started the thread by saying the opposite.

Do you have experience with courting as she describes?

I have experience…*highly successful *experience from my perspective…with dating. That is what I have been trying to share. And I share it because the OP has been asking for opinions. Many people have been sharing these opinions and experiences in this thread. But I guess we’ve all said what can be said for now, and perhaps offered a little food for thought for when the OP experiences things for herself and may or may not need to adjust this abstract approach. I hope it all works out for the best for her.

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t see many success stories. I see lots of failure in the world when it comes to dating the way some people in this thread are espousing. I guess calling dating “good” makes it good, then? Or simply expecting people to behave while making no effort for contingencies?

That’s naive.

Thank you for calling me and my FH and all of our college friends naive.

I’m just curious, (assuming, that is, that by ‘making no effort for contingencies’ you mean ‘avoid the near occasion of sin’) Why do you assume that those who date, such as myself and my friends, are not careful to avoid the near occasion of sin? See here’s the thing. I feel no need to avoid being alone with those I am in a relationship with because I absolutely 100% refusse to date people for whom being in a car together for 20 min is going to be a near occasion of sin. If somebody has that big of a problem with lust I will not consider them, under any circumstances, as a future spouse. I am not the only person who thinks this way. The problem, then is not one of avoiding near occasions of sin, but choosing only to date those for whom dating is not an occasion of sin.

 

[thewanderer]

I guess calling dating “good” makes it good, then?

Also, with respect to this, I am hardly just slapping the name good onto anything.

I am talking about relationships where the couple is looking towards marriage and using their relationship as a means of deciding whether or not to marry each other, where they pray together and encourage each other to deepen their faith, where they hang out with family and friends as well as making sure to take time just to themselves so that they can get to know each other fully, both who they are with others as well as who they are privately. A relationship where the couple talks about the future and what they expect out of a marriage, what they are looking for in a spouse. One where they constantly take time to pray both for their significant other and that they can discern God’s will as to whether or not they should marry. A relationship where they share each others hopes and dreams and support each other through sufferings. I could go on and on. I have seen all of this and more in multiple dating relationships. So you tell me if I am just slapping the name ‘good’ onto things to try and make them appear better. Personally, I see no need, the relationships speak for themselves. Please recognize that just because you have not yet personally witnissed such a relationship doesn’t mean it does not exist.

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

OP, your plan to never be alone with a man worries me a little too. I agree with you when you say it’s extremely important to observe how a possible husband acts around others, how he treats his family and his friends, and how he treats strangers. The example of how he treats wait staff that was given by another poster is something that I too think is very telling.

But apart from that, isn’t it important for you to learn how he treats YOU when there is no-one to observe him? We all tend to be on our best behaviour when we are being watched, it’s just human nature.

A man who cannot ‘control himself’ in a car with you or at the cinema with you is a warning sign but at the same time there’s nothing wrong with a man wanting to hold your hand at the cinema, just as an example. The problem would be if he ignored your statement that you didn’t want that and kept trying to hold your hand anyway. A man who ignores your wishes, is offhand with you, or is dismissive of your thoughts and opinions when there is no-one around is a huge warning sign.

I do think it’s great that you’re thinking about these things – just don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. I wish you all the best.