Explaining the process of Courting

[chevalier]

Indeed true. But it always bugs me when someone turns 180 degrees when they hear I build watches for fun, or clean Roman Imperial bronzes on a Friday night. Oh well. One time I ended up in a conversation with someone who seemed really nice, until they asked what book I was reading at the moment. I made the mistake of answering (“Chronological Systems of Byzantine Egypt”, if I recall correctly). I suppose the person who can be interested in that may well be the person I marry.

I suppose some women might simply be intimidated by the level of specificity and detail, while others will think you have a passion that’s important to you but they don’t really share, so they won’t get involved with you because they think you need someone you can share with (the female part of the populace can be surprisingly humble and altruistic about such things as opposed to the conquest thinking more characteristic in our part). Perhaps only a small share will think, “Eek! Creepy! What a nerd. I must run!” For the record, I’m a weirdo that knows both Latin and PHP, so our experience isn’t so dissimilar.

Anyway, you didn’t make a mistake, you acted correctly and you got the correct result, it was only tough to take. Downside of having a small effective pool.

That was my approach, too (I did do another estimate using the Drake equation ). I factored in whichever of my dealbreakers that had statistics tied to them (Catholic population, age range, education levels, and a few others I dare not mention). I did use a number theory concept called “ultimate sets” along with a few guesses in regards to mutually inclusive factors.

Sounds familiar.

That’s true! I was just pondering the idea ‘aloud’ as to what that would look like. It’s true about sharing interests; I really would like to find someone who speaks a different language or has a different skill (drawing, let’s say) that they could share/teach.

Good luck!

Yes, that is indeed unfortunate. Of course, the divorce rate nowadays may stem from inappropriate familiarity (too early) which is the risk I was referring to. I’d be curious to find out which is more likely to lead to divorce: more familiarity or less familiarity before marriage.

Even if connection could be found, causation would be awfully hard to measure. But something I can tell you after reading all that appellate jurisprudence from Rome is that a lot of cases look like someone didn’t do homework or thought things would work out. (In case you’re interested: here is some. No, just kidding. )

 

[Byrnwiga]

I suppose some women might simply be intimidated by the level of specificity and detail, while others will think you have a passion that’s important to you but they don’t really share, so they won’t get involved with you because they think you need someone you can share with (the female part of the populace can be surprisingly humble and altruistic about such things as opposed to the conquest thinking more characteristic in our part). Perhaps only a small share will think, “Eek! Creepy! What a nerd. I must run!” For the record, I’m a weirdo that knows both Latin and PHP, so our experience isn’t so dissimilar.

Anyway, you didn’t make a mistake, you acted correctly and you got the correct result, it was only tough to take. Downside of having a small effective pool.

That’s interesting. I thought for sure it was the “Eek! Creepy!” reaction, as opposed to an altruistic “He needs someone who understands him” reaction. It’s nice know they think that way. How does one prevent such a reaction (the altruistic one, that is)? That is, how could I disclose the fact that I don’t necessarily need to share one particular thing? Or, how does one avoid intimidating?

Latin and PHP sounds a lot like my Anglo-Saxon and C++ . Then again, I’m a computer science student with a minor in Medieval history, so it goes with the territory .

Alas, to be an outlier… There are a few people I know who have tried/are trying to set me up with someone, but I’m afraid they’re going to misguage and I’ll end up meeting a neopagan druid who plays historical video games.

Good luck!

Thank you.

Even if connection could be found, causation would be awfully hard to measure. But something I can tell you after reading all that appellate jurisprudence from Rome is that a lot of cases look like someone didn’t do homework or thought things would work out. (In case you’re interested: here is some. No, just kidding. )

Well, I suppose I’ll just have to be careful. Then again, if I’m not, I’ll be able to test the good old adage of “life’s too short”.

-Byrnwiga

 

[chevalier]

That’s interesting. I thought for sure it was the “Eek! Creepy!” reaction, as opposed to an altruistic “He needs someone who understands him” reaction. It’s nice know they think that way. How does one prevent such a reaction (the altruistic one, that is)? That is, how could I disclose the fact that I don’t necessarily need to share one particular thing?

How do you know that you don’t? Perhaps in her opinion you do? You need to give her some accredit and, to an extent, accept that she has some right to judge the situation (especially as it involves her). I think you can still present yourself as a person with a wide range of rather peculiar interest, stress that it would be nice to meet someone with her own passions, who perhaps shares enough of your interests to have a sense of community but some interesting differences could be rather attractive from our point view, perhaps make some effort to nail down common interests and outlooks when talking to someone. Otherwise, I guess it just needs to click.

Or, how does one avoid intimidating?

When you find out, tell me. I suppose it has something to do with humility. Joking aside, if you’re kind to people, treat them with respect and try to be considerate, they should be able to figure it out on their own. Incidentally, this thread contains some good examples of intimidation (including a couple of prominent ones from me). Using normal language instead of sounding the a 19th century Catechism or the Supreme Court is always a good start.

Latin and PHP sounds a lot like my Anglo-Saxon and C++ . Then again, I’m a computer science student with a minor in Medieval history, so it goes with the territory .

Lol. Well, I almost became an archaeologist back in the day. Mediaeval and ancient history (in this order) has always been my favourite. Given the outcome of the calculations we’ve just spoken about we might as well go and have a beer and forget women.

Alas, to be an outlier… There are a few people I know who have tried/are trying to set me up with someone, but I’m afraid they’re going to misguage and I’ll end up meeting a neopagan druid who plays historical video games.

Talk to me more. This said, I remember a certain guy from a Starcraft forum who quoted Luther in his signature. The most celebrated Starcraft player ever (Boxer) is Catholic. Among people I actually knew, there was once a Calvinist pastor and I still know an Anglican ex-nun who play roleplaying games. In fact, I even recall an SSPX guy who rejected NFP and had five kids, same place I met all of them (and there was also that melancholic piano-playing Presbyterian guy, and, naturally, a slew of liberal Catholics from all walks of life plus a Jewish lady). Then there was that community-heavy Catholic guy and a trad-Cath girl who played Worms (as the daughter of a military officer and descendant of a long line of knights, I suppose it’s understandable that she had an instinctive liking of war games ). Sorry, I got a bit carried. If you’re Catholic and enjoy playing computer games, it may be hard to find someone who’s similar to you in both regards.

 

[Byrnwiga]

How do you know that you don’t? Perhaps in her opinion you do? You need to give her some accredit and, to an extent, accept that she has some right to judge the situation (especially as it involves her).

I suppose I can’t be entirely sure. I’m not trying to not give her credit, but rather being open about a range of possibilities (having read many threads on people going back to someone they misjudged the first time). That said, I’m surely guilty of misjudging people (and getting better at not doing that), so I’m worried myself of being misjudged, essentially.

I think you can still present yourself as a person with a wide range of rather peculiar interest, stress that it would be nice to meet someone with her own passions, who perhaps shares enough of your interests to have a sense of community but some interesting differences could be rather attractive from our point view, perhaps make some effort to nail down common interests and outlooks when talking to someone. Otherwise, I guess it just needs to click.

I think this is goood advice. Hopefully I will presented with at least a few opportunities to try it.

When you find out, tell me. I suppose it has something to do with humility. Joking aside, if you’re kind to people, treat them with respect and try to be considerate, they should be able to figure it out on their own. Incidentally, this thread contains some good examples of intimidation (including a couple of prominent ones from me). Using normal language instead of sounding the a 19th century Catechism or the Supreme Court is always a good start.

I try very hard on the humility aspect (and most likely regularly fail at it). I live in an area with very few Catholic youth, so many of the people I become acquianted with are two or three times my age. As a result I pick up their mannerisms in dress, comportment, and speech. It’s a balancing act, though; if I try too hard to not intimidate, well, perhaps I might suffer for that in some way (not being myself, and/or being just like everyone else, for example).

Lol. Well, I almost became an archaeologist back in the day. Mediaeval and ancient history (in this order) has always been my favourite. Given the outcome of the calculations we’ve just spoken about we might as well go and have a beer and forget women.

Yes, that does seem like a good idea (though I don’t drink, I would certainly enjoy the conversation ).

Talk to me more. This said, I remember a certain guy from a Starcraft forum who quoted Luther in his signature. The most celebrated Starcraft player ever (Boxer) is Catholic. Among people I actually knew, there was once a Calvinist pastor and I still know an Anglican ex-nun who play roleplaying games. In fact, I even recall an SSPX guy who rejected NFP and had five kids, same place I met all of them (and there was also that melancholic piano-playing Presbyterian guy, and, naturally, a slew of liberal Catholics from all walks of life plus a Jewish lady). Then there was that community-heavy Catholic guy and a trad-Cath girl who played Worms (as the daughter of a military officer and descendant of a long line of knights, I suppose it’s understandable that she had an instinctive liking of war games ). Sorry, I got a bit carried. If you’re Catholic and enjoy playing computer games, it may be hard to find someone who’s similar to you in both regards.

Well, if you meet anyone who doesn’t click with you, just mention my name :thumbsup:. And, let’s just say computer science is not exactly a female-dominated field (male-female ratio in my classes is around 40:1 to 60:1).

I mentioned the historical video game-playing person as a reference to the fact that people sometimes equate (rather than associate) love of history with playing historically-based games. And, well, I don’t play video games (too time-consuming for me), so whether someone is a gamer or not wouldn’t be a factor for me (thereby increasing my chances of finding someone ). That said, it would be kind of neat . Actually, I can make video games, so perhaps I could make the game they’d want to play. Oh, the possibilities…

-Byrnwiga

 

[thewanderer]

OP, I just want you to know that I am sorry if I am coming across as being harsh. I really don’t mean to, but sometimes I get a little carried away in discussions trying to make sure everyone sees all the distinctions that I do.

In case this helps you see where I am coming from I have taken one of your earlier posts about what you want from a relationship and revised it so that I think it no longer implies false and offensive things about healthy dating. Take a look and see if you are ok with this revised version, because if you are it is probably a much better way to present your views on relationships.

I am looking forward to, in the future, a purpose filled relationship. I am wanting more than dinner and a movie. I am wanting a friendship that leads both of us to God while pursuing a relationship with eternity in mind. I’m not interested in recreational dating, I’m looking for a “sweeter song.”

So, a list of “revised”, or rather, a little bit more organized thoughts concerning my process of courtship.

• The courtship does start with a discussion with my father. I value his opinion very much. While it is ultimatly my decision whether or not to court this young man, I do want my parent’s blessing on this relationship.
• A solid marriage results in the basis of a solid friendship. So until we are married, we treat each other with the respect of brothers and sisters in Christ.
• A rejection of recreational dating isn’t becasue I am afraid of a relationship, but becusae I am looking for something so much more fufilling - a lifestyle of purpose filled and pure relationship that brings both of us closer to God and to Heaven.
• To work towards the preservation of both of our purity, the courtship avoids enviroments of isolation (ie - in the car alone, at one of our houses where the opportunity for sin presents itself, and non-communicating events where we are not learning more about each other). To help us with this goal, guidance of parents, experienced and trusted friends, and spiritual guides will be valued.
• By participating in activities that serve others in the comunity, we will see how each other acts with those who know us best and be able to answer questions that purpose-less dating will not. A wedding is such an amazing experience becuase you are surronded by those who love you, and I am looking for a courtship where this is experience becuase we are surronded by those who have our best interst in mind.
• Getting to know you is the purpose of the relationship. It is dangerous to base ones perception of a person solely on how they behave when only you are present, insteada relationship that shows your character and abilities that will show if you will be a good husband in the future. So, I am looking for a relationship that is based on activites with families, friends, youth group, etc to be able to see each other in our real life enviroments.
• I am looking for a relationship that begins with eternity in mind. It is a process in which both of us should grown spiritually and closer to God. Beings that the young man is seen as the initator of the relationship, he should take the role of spiritual leadership very seriously.
• I am not interested in a relationship without a committment. Elisabeth Elliot says: “Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right does he have to claim her exclusive attention?” So the relationship should never take over our relationship with God, family, and friends - meaning it shouldn’t isoalte us from other vital relationships.
• Just because lips have met doesn’t mea hearts are joined for God. MY standards for physical relationship (these are for me, not for everyone, becuase each must determine their boundries in a relationship) is a kiss on the cheek and holding hands. This is because each further step beyond these boundries is a slippery slope, and beings that I am saving my first kiss for my future husband, I wish this relationship to by physically pure.
• C.S. Lewis said “Friendship is where two people walk side by side twoardsa common goal.” The common goal of a relationship is marriage - and a friendship based on common interests and a love of the Lord.

 

[thewanderer]

Oh, also, I somehow missed this one ealier, thanks for the clarification.

So, this is a situation I would avoid. If a young man and I were watching a movie downstairs, and everyone else was upstairs, I feel that this is an isolated situation . Yes, someone could walk in on us - but what if they don’t?
While in a public place (volunteering, coffee place, etc,) there is people there to observe you and you are going to be physically pure becaue of the fact that you are in public.

 

[Chevaleresse]

Now that’s insulting. Please show how the average young female is better than the average young male in that regard.

They are. The percentage of women pressured into sex is much higher for women than men (like, 0% for men). The percentage for women is lower when it comes to premarital sex before 24. So yes, a pile of dirt has more morals than most men.

Now please check the statistics for unmarried females.

Lower. Much. CDC. Go look them up.

And I think with a nickname like yours you might wish to be a little bit slower to call people names.

The politeness just oozes from you.

 

[zenith15]

First of all, I question seriously the attitude that every married woman is the automatic best choice as a teacher for her children through high school. I am in no way qualified to be a teacher, am certainly not an expert in the wide variety of subjects taught in 12 grades of school, am not disposed personality-wise to be a schoolteacher even of my own children, and I think the fear that certain elements of the protestant evangelical community try to instill in parents against public school and even religious schools leaves many of these homeschooled kids woefully underprepared for life in the real world. Women/females are not encouraged to seek any kind of college education, but rather to remain “daughters/keepers at home”, “serving” their father until such time as the ideal prince rides into her life via a chance meeting at a homeschool gathering or evangelical get together. This may very well leave the daughters “serving” Dad at home with mom and helping mom raise the many younger siblings until she is 30+ years old.

The insistence on home schooling ONLY, by EVERYONE, and the “sheltering” of children to the point that they have no relationships outside their sibling group and that females are ONLY to be geared towards a life of transferred servitude to their new “protector and guardian” after mom and dad approve such a transfer of power is NOT Catholic.

One of the followers of this method of marriage preparation, following his daughter’s engagement to the young “Courter” he had pre-approved for her, had his daughter suit up in full wedding attire every day for weeks and sit upstairs in her bedroom waiting to hear if today would be her wedding day, based on a few obscure Bible verses taken out of context (being ready when the bridegroom cometh, etc), and then one day as she sat patiently in her wedding dress yet again, blind to any knowledge of when she would be married, Daddy had the young man get dressed up and come marching over the hill to seize his bride–ready and waiting and doing nothing, as a good bride should be–and cart her off to the wedding ceremony that she had NO HAND in planning.

 

[thewanderer]

I would just like to point out that the OP was not claiming that it is always best for the mother to homeschool her kids, just that that is what she wants to do so she wants to find somebody who is open to that. I feel the same way to be honest, I would definately love to homeschool my kids if I can, especially while they’re young, that doesn’t mean I believe that every woman should homeschool. (I also have a college degree and am about to begin a graduate program, so there’s no fear of me thinking that women should not be educated, in case the fact that I desire to homeschool and be a SAHM gives you the impression that I am somehow anti-women education etc.)

Also, just because some people who court have unhealthy views of relationships doesn’t mean that everyone who courts does. You are falling into the opposite fallacy from the OP’s. She implied that dating was always problematic, you are implying that courting is always problematic, neither of which are true. They can both be problematic and they can both be wonderful and healthy.

First of all, I question seriously the attitude that every married woman is the automatic best choice as a teacher for her children through high school. I am in no way qualified to be a teacher, am certainly not an expert in the wide variety of subjects taught in 12 grades of school, am not disposed personality-wise to be a schoolteacher even of my own children, and I think the fear that certain elements of the protestant evangelical community try to instill in parents against public school and even religious schools leaves many of these homeschooled kids woefully underprepared for life in the real world. Women/females are not encouraged to seek any kind of college education, but rather to remain “daughters/keepers at home”, “serving” their father until such time as the ideal prince rides into her life via a chance meeting at a homeschool gathering or evangelical get together. This may very well leave the daughters “serving” Dad at home with mom and helping mom raise the many younger siblings until she is 30+ years old.

The insistence on home schooling ONLY, by EVERYONE, and the “sheltering” of children to the point that they have no relationships outside their sibling group and that females are ONLY to be geared towards a life of transferred servitude to their new “protector and guardian” after mom and dad approve such a transfer of power is NOT Catholic.

One of the followers of this method of marriage preparation, following his daughter’s engagement to the young “Courter” he had pre-approved for her, had his daughter suit up in full wedding attire every day for weeks and sit upstairs in her bedroom waiting to hear if today would be her wedding day, based on a few obscure Bible verses taken out of context (being ready when the bridegroom cometh, etc), and then one day as she sat patiently in her wedding dress yet again, blind to any knowledge of when she would be married, Daddy had the young man get dressed up and come marching over the hill to seize his bride–ready and waiting and doing nothing, as a good bride should be–and cart her off to the wedding ceremony that she had NO HAND in planning.

 

[zenith15]

I have to disagree that the type of courting expressed by the OP is healthy. I am not aware of other types of “courting”, as that phrase is used almost exclusively by this particular group of Christian Dominionists who practice it just the way the OP described. In years gone by, grandpa and grandma might have been said to be “courting” but it was not the same thing as what is being described by the OP.

 

[thewanderer]

I have to disagree that the type of courting expressed by the OP is healthy. I am not aware of other types of “courting”, as that phrase is used almost exclusively by this particular group of Christian Dominionists who practice it just the way the OP described. In years gone by, grandpa and grandma might have been said to be “courting” but it was not the same thing as what is being described by the OP.

As I understand it the one real difference between courting and dating is that with courting one never spends time with each other without other people being present, at least visually, even without being within the range of hearing. As such, it can be done well or ill, just like dating. If you think there is something in particular that the OP has said about courting that sounds dangerous please bring up that specific aspect and not just assume all sorts of things about the OP which are not necessarily true.

 

[zenith15]

The seclusion, the willingness to turn one’s future marital decisions largely over to one’s parents even as an adult, the viewing of oneself as being in constant need of a male “protector” at all times, to name but a few. I am not trying to denigrate the OP–I am concerned for her and it sounds a whole lot like Protestant evangelical dominionism beliefs rather than Catholic beliefs, including the sources she quotes (Joshua Harris, etc).

 

[zenith15]

This comes from Doug Wilson, a leader in this system of beliefs:

evangelicalvillage.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/the-courtship-pathto-the-love-of-your-life/

The Courtship Path
Definition
Courtship is the active, involved authority of the young woman’s father (or head of the household) in the formation of her romantic attachments leading to marriage.

Distinctives
Courtship is not egalitarian because it believes in a female submission to a male head of the home.
If there is an absence of headship, either because of neglect or a literal absence, young couples should seek out advice from their church on how to continue their courtship. This will probably result in an assignment of surrogate parents.
Physical involvement when courting should be completely avoided. After the couple is engaged, it should be limited to holding hands, brief kisses, and hugs.
The will of God is rarely an acceptable excuse to conduct courtship in a self-defined way, such as a man pursuing a woman who has repeatedly rejected his interest in her.
Platonic relationships are a myth and are not an excuse to spend one-on-one time with a member of the opposite sex outside of courtship.

---

And here are some questions the father of the girl is encouraged to ask the boy–again, by Doug Wilson:

1. Tell me about your spiritual background. What was your church upbringing like? At what point did your spiritual experience become real to you? Have you ever had a period of spiritual rebellion?
2. When was the last time you read through the entire Bible? The New Testament?
3. Do you attend worship every Lord’s Day?
4. Describe your parents’ marriage for me. What are the most valuable lessons you have you learned from your parents? [In cases of divorce, or other severe marriage problems] What did you learn from these problems? Have you learned what not to do? [In cases where dad wronged mom] What did you do to support and encourage your mother?
5. What is your relationship like with your dad? With your mom?
6. If I were given a fly-on-the-wall glimpse of a typical conversation that you might have with your mom, would you agree that this will likely be the way you will be treating my daughter ten years from now? Why or why not?
7. How many brothers and sisters do you have? How do you get along them?
8. What kind of worker are you?
9. How many jobs have you had in your life, and what did your bosses think of you? Were those bosses sorry to see you go, or glad to see you go?
10. What do you believe God has called you to do vocationally? Ten years from now, what you believe you will be doing?
11. What steps have you taken to reach that goal?
12. What was your GPA in college? How come?
13. How much money did you make last year? Do you pay your bills on time? How much debt have you accumulated?
14. Please describe the nature of your debts (student loans, car, house, credit cards, or expensive porn sites).
15. Speaking of porn sites, do you have a problem with pornography?
16. If you do, please describe the nature and extent of the problem. [It is important here for fathers to distinguish between the kind of periodic struggles that a normal young man is likely to have had, and the kind of obsessive behavior that indicates much deeper problems, such as contempt for women or an addictive lack of self control. Marriage is likely to fix the first kind of “normal” problem, and will only exacerbate the second kind of pathological problem.]
17. Is there anything in your sexual history that I need to know about? Failed marriage? Live-in girl friend two years before you became a Christian? Live-in girl friend six months after you became a Christian? Got three girls pregnant in high school?
18. Have you ever participated, whether experimentally or otherwise, in any sexual perversions? Homosexuality? Molestation of children? Bestiality?
19. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble with the law?
20. If I were to drop in to visit you at your apartment this afternoon, what would I find? A together sort of place? A clean place? The abomination of desolation?
21. Describe my daughter to me. What do you think she is like?
22. What about her do you find most attractive? You obviously believe that she would be a blessing to you. Why do you think you would be a blessing to her?

creationproject.wordpress.com/2007/03/30/douglas-wilson-on-courtship-questions/

 

[Byrnwiga]

And here are some questions the father of the girl is encouraged to ask the boy–again, by Doug Wilson:

1. Tell me about your spiritual background. What was your church upbringing like? At what point did your spiritual experience become real to you? Have you ever had a period of spiritual rebellion?
2. When was the last time you read through the entire Bible? The New Testament?
3. Do you attend worship every Lord’s Day?
4. Describe your parents’ marriage for me. What are the most valuable lessons you have you learned from your parents? [In cases of divorce, or other severe marriage problems] What did you learn from these problems? Have you learned what not to do? [In cases where dad wronged mom] What did you do to support and encourage your mother?
5. What is your relationship like with your dad? With your mom?
6. If I were given a fly-on-the-wall glimpse of a typical conversation that you might have with your mom, would you agree that this will likely be the way you will be treating my daughter ten years from now? Why or why not?
7. How many brothers and sisters do you have? How do you get along them?
8. What kind of worker are you?
9. How many jobs have you had in your life, and what did your bosses think of you? Were those bosses sorry to see you go, or glad to see you go?
10. What do you believe God has called you to do vocationally? Ten years from now, what you believe you will be doing?
11. What steps have you taken to reach that goal?
12. What was your GPA in college? How come?
13. How much money did you make last year? Do you pay your bills on time? How much debt have you accumulated?
14. Please describe the nature of your debts (student loans, car, house, credit cards, or expensive porn sites).
15. Speaking of porn sites, do you have a problem with pornography?
16. If you do, please describe the nature and extent of the problem. [It is important here for fathers to distinguish between the kind of periodic struggles that a normal young man is likely to have had, and the kind of obsessive behavior that indicates much deeper problems, such as contempt for women or an addictive lack of self control. Marriage is likely to fix the first kind of “normal” problem, and will only exacerbate the second kind of pathological problem.]
17. Is there anything in your sexual history that I need to know about? Failed marriage? Live-in girl friend two years before you became a Christian? Live-in girl friend six months after you became a Christian? Got three girls pregnant in high school?
18. Have you ever participated, whether experimentally or otherwise, in any sexual perversions? Homosexuality? Molestation of children? Bestiality?
19. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble with the law?
20. If I were to drop in to visit you at your apartment this afternoon, what would I find? A together sort of place? A clean place? The abomination of desolation?
21. Describe my daughter to me. What do you think she is like?
22. What about her do you find most attractive? You obviously believe that she would be a blessing to you. Why do you think you would be a blessing to her?

creationproject.wordpress.com/2007/03/30/douglas-wilson-on-courtship-questions/

Just as a general comment, I wouldn’t mind at all being asked these questions. In fact, I’d take it as a good sign that I was being asked these.

:twocents:

-Byrnwiga

 

[thewanderer]

The seclusion, the willingness to turn one’s future marital decisions largely over to one’s parents even as an adult, the viewing of oneself as being in constant need of a male “protector” at all times, to name but a few. I am not trying to denigrate the OP–I am concerned for her and it sounds a whole lot like Protestant evangelical dominionism beliefs rather than Catholic beliefs, including the sources she quotes (Joshua Harris, etc).

I’m not sure what you mean by seclusion, and I do not think it is clear that she intends to turn her marital decisions largely over to her parents as an adult, what she has so far said could also just mean that she respects their oppinion and will take it into account, but I must admit that the idea that she was in constant need of a protector did strike me as kind of odd. OP, just so you are aware this is not a Catholic idea, women are supposed to be strong independant people, just as men are, there are many examples of such women saints that you could look up to with respect to this, St. Joan of Arc, for one. I realize that because you are still young you currently look to your parents still for advice and authority, but part of growing up and maturing is that you learn to take care of yourself. The idea of the father being the protector of his daughters until they are passed onto their husbands is a very protestant idea, and is, incidentally, where the whole bride walking down the aisle with her father came from, the rubrics actually proscribed for a Catholic ceremony is that the bride and groom process together, this is because the Catholic understanding is not that the bride is under the protection of her father and handed off to her husband at marriage, but rather she and her husband come together as equal adults to the marriage ceremony. Perhaps you do realize this, and I certainly hope that you do, but since Zenith brought it up again I thought I would throw out another point of view to think about with respect to it. It is not a Catholic, but rather a protestant way of thinking about women. I do hope you will come back to this thread and give some more (name removed by moderator)ut, but even if you don’t post any more, do spend some time thinking, and praying, about what has been said here. I wish you all the best.

 

[Greg_N]

she should be careful not to offend anyone she is talking to by making false claims. Currently the way she speaks about the difference between courtship and dating will end up offending good people and very possibly turn away good matches for her.

If you’re offended by a 17 year old girls idea of courting with a partner rather than dating, than you are very timid.

Also, if she turns away a “good match”, then did it ever occur to you they probably weren’t a “good match” to begin with?

How does he know yet if he loves her? He hasn’t had a chance to get to know her properly. Love, and discerning marriage, is the goal of courting/dating, not the basis for it.

I think you need to read this.

They are. The percentage of women pressured into sex is much higher for women than men (like, 0% for men). The percentage for women is lower when it comes to premarital sex before 24. So yes, a pile of dirt has more morals than most men.

As a dude in his 20’s… this is true… (where I live anyway).
I’m not even acquainted with another male around my age bracket who thinks it’s even a good idea to get maried (let alone be chaste), and I’m quite social.

 

[Irishmom2]

So yes, a pile of dirt has more morals than most men.

You have stated other things as fact without any sources to back them up, but what you said there is uncharitable and plain mean.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

They are. The percentage of women pressured into sex is much higher for women than men (like, 0% for men). The percentage for women is lower when it comes to premarital sex before 24. So yes, a pile of dirt has more morals than most men.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[chevalier]

They are. The percentage of women pressured into sex is much higher for women than men (like, 0% for men).

Changing the subject, aren’t we (and bold font does not a bold point make). You started off implying that a young man can’t control himself, judging by the average rate of failure. I possibly shouldn’t have reacted strongly basing on the “average”, since you weren’t referring that observation to the Catholic populace. Still, the dating and courting (and all the rest) that we’re talking about here, we are referring it to practicing Catholics as well, to ourselves even. In this context, I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t make statements to the effect that men are animals. As for your nonsequitur about being pressured, I can assure you that men too can be pressured. That is not a male vs female issue, it’s more an abstaining person vs one not so.

The percentage for women is lower when it comes to premarital sex before 24.

How about this thread, that you actually participated in a while ago, yourself? Should you even assume 100% offhandedly, how much would 100% differ from 89%?

So yes, a pile of dirt has more morals than most men.

I decline to participate in that type of discussion.

The politeness just oozes from you.

I’m not accustomed to using the sort of language with a lady that I’d need to use here, so I’ll decline comment again. This said, it pains me to hear what experience you must have gone through to think that way. I wish you find the peace and love you need.

 

[zenith15]

Wow. Just wow.

Seriously. I mean–what on earth do you base THAT on? Please don’t assume your personal experiences mirror those of society at large. There are a great many men with high moral character, and a great many women without it. (I am referring here to the post that Blue Eyed Lady was responding to, not her post)