Explaining the Trinity to LDS

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stoutgig
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Stoutgig

Guest
I have an LDS (Morman) friend with whom I often discuss the faith. I have a hard time putting the mysteries of our faith into words at times and the trinity can be a whopper. I have done some reading and have found a way to distinguish person from being. Essentially by explaining that a human is one being and one person, while non-human creatures (such as a dog for example) are one being and zero persons. Therefore it stands to reason that if you can have one being that is less than one person, one being that is equal to one person, then you can have one being that is more than one person. But I know my friend and his first response is going to be to compare the Trinity to a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. So I am looking for tips or advice to combat this known response plus any other ways that I might successfully convey the true teaching of the Trinity.

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
LDS is way out there. trying to explain to them about something of our faith ,like the trinity, unfortunately the fundamentals of our faith needs to be addressed first. That would be hours of discussion I think,possibly days.
 
Good luck with that one…my ex Mo husband and I still debate the Trinity…LDS just don’t see it the same as Catholics…and they never will…ever.

stormy
 
I though I should share this with you: I am reading a book titled ‘I DARED TO CALL HIM FATHER’ . It is a true story of a Pakistani Muslim woman named Bilquis Sheikh who converted to Christianity after finding many references to Jesus in the Koran.

On page 107 of the story, Bilquis is talking to a visitor who is discussing the Muslim faith with her. In the course of their conversation she says to him…"you perhaps have heard of Sadhu Sundar Singh the devout Sikh to whom Jesus appeared in a vision. This is how Jesus explained the Trinity to him: ]'Just as in the sun there are both heat and light, but the light is not heat and the heat is not light, but both are one, thought in their manifestation they have different forms, so I and the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father, bring light and heat to the world. Yet We are not three but one, just as the sun is but one."

May the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Bless you all.
 
I am actually facing the same problem. My boyfriend is a Mormon, and we often talk about religion. In the end, I hope that he will convert, and I have been praying for him.

Here is a link that may help…
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/trinity.htm

Good luck. If you find other things that help explain Catholic doctrine to Mormons, please share it with me!

P.S. Please pray for my Mormon boyfriend’s conversion!!!
 
The Mormon understands the Christian idea of Trinity and rejects it. The Mormon believes that he worships the same God as we, but that he has more information about Him and therefor worships him more intelligently in such knowledge.

So rather than try to convince them of the truth of the Trinity, instead use it to demonstrate that we do not worship the same God in a different way, but that we worship different Gods. Then they have to make a decision about which God is God.

My God the Father is the only God that ever was or will be. He said “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” So I do not worship a God who is one in a long succession of gods. He is spirit and is worshiped in spirit and truth. (and a spirit does not have flesh and bones).

My God the Son, was the same eternal God as God the Father, yet he emptied himself of deity in the incarnation in order to save men by the shedding of his blood on the cross. I do not worship a polytheistic God the Son who is a second God to God the Father and sweat in Gethsemane for some sins.

My God the Holy Spirit is the same God as the Eternal God the Father and God the Son, who is a person, and who reveals himself in the hearts of men. I do not worship a God the Holy Spirit who is an impersonal force, or who is a disembodied spirit looking for a body of flesh in the person of Joseph Smith.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, which is incomprehensible to our finite minds, yet who has revealed himself so that we might know him. The Father knows things that the Son and Holy Ghost don’t. (The time of Christ’s second coming). The are and have been one since the beginning with the exception of the cross where God was torn and symbolized by the veil, the parting of the sea, the cleft rock, etc.

The Holy Gost is a separate person than the Son as symbolized by the descent of the dove upon Jesus at his baptism, and that Jesus would send him to us when He had gone away.

I worship a God who is so big he fills the universe and so small he fits in my heart.

It is not that I do not know what the Mormons teach, it is that I know it and actively reject it as a false God made in the image of men. We do not worship the same God in a different way since your god is just one of many gods and My God is the only true and real God of all the universe, not just of this planet. In fact the god of this world is Satan as taught in the Bible, and the teachings of the Mormon god, that men can become gods, are a teaching of the serpent from the garden, and I actively reject it.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. The God of the universe, or the small and capricious god of Joseph Smith’s inventive mind.
 
Stoutgig said:
I have an LDS (Morman) friend with whom I often discuss the faith. I have a hard time putting the mysteries of our faith into words at times and the trinity can be a whopper. I have done some reading and have found a way to distinguish person from being. Essentially by explaining that a human is one being and one person, while non-human creatures (such as a dog for example) are one being and zero persons. Therefore it stands to reason that if you can have one being that is less than one person, one being that is equal to one person, then you can have one being that is more than one person. But I know my friend and his first response is going to be to compare the Trinity to a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. So I am looking for tips or advice to combat this known response plus any other ways that I might successfully convey the true teaching of the Trinity.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Click to expand...
A number of years ago Patrick Madrid engaged Gary Coleman, a gentleman representing the LDS position, on this topic. It’s available here in various forms. I think it will help your friend better understand this Mystery:

surprisedbytruth.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=45

Also, if he is willing to read a Catholic book, Theology for Beginners by Frank Sheed, offers an exellent chapter on the Most Holy Trinity.
 
Stoutgig, keep in mind that since the Mormons believe that God the Father has a physical body - and requires a body to BE God - it is difficult for them to get their head around the three Divine Persons. You have to help your friend to understand the spiritual nature of God before you can really begin to address the Trinity.
 
First, let start out by saying that the Holy Trinity is, in fact, a mystery of our Catholic Faith. However, that doesn’t mean that we should not try to understand this mystery to the best of our abilities, or that we should be discouraged by the fact that we will never be able to fully penetrate the depth of the Trinity.

That being said, there are metaphors that can be used to explain the Catholic teaching on their being One God, and yet Three Persons. Here is one that I’ve always liked to use:

Person A: “Hold up your hand in front of you”

Person B: “OK, I am”

Person A: “Now, how many hands do you see?”

Person B: “One”

Person A: “Now, how many fingers do you see?”

Person B: “Five”

Person A" Good. So one hand, and yet five fingers right? So, One God, and yet Three Persons"

I know that it is simplistic in nature, and I’m not sure if this is along the lines of what you are looking for, but it’s helped people I’ve spoken with better understand the doctrine of the Trinity. If this is not what you were looking for, just let me know specifically what you think would help in explaining the Holy Trinity to your friend (i.e. more deep theological reasoning, a better metaphor, Scripture verses and correct interpretations, Church Father quotes, etc) and I will be more than happy to come up with something along those lines.

I hope that helps.

May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.

YinandYang
 
rcjones said:
The Mormon understands the Christian idea of Trinity and rejects it. The Mormon believes that he worships the same God as we, but that he has more information about Him and therefor worships him more intelligently in such knowledge.

So rather than try to convince them of the truth of the Trinity, instead use it to demonstrate that we do not worship the same God in a different way, but that we worship different Gods. Then they have to make a decision about which God is God.

My God the Father is the only God that ever was or will be. He said “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” So I do not worship a God who is one in a long succession of gods. He is spirit and is worshiped in spirit and truth. (and a spirit does not have flesh and bones).

My God the Son, was the same eternal God as God the Father, yet he emptied himself of deity in the incarnation in order to save men by the shedding of his blood on the cross. I do not worship a polytheistic God the Son who is a second God to God the Father and sweat in Gethsemane for some sins.

My God the Holy Spirit is the same God as the Eternal God the Father and God the Son, who is a person, and who reveals himself in the hearts of men. I do not worship a God the Holy Spirit who is an impersonal force, or who is a disembodied spirit looking for a body of flesh in the person of Joseph Smith.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, which is incomprehensible to our finite minds, yet who has revealed himself so that we might know him. The Father knows things that the Son and Holy Ghost don’t. (The time of Christ’s second coming). The are and have been one since the beginning with the exception of the cross where God was torn and symbolized by the veil, the parting of the sea, the cleft rock, etc.

The Holy Gost is a separate person than the Son as symbolized by the descent of the dove upon Jesus at his baptism, and that Jesus would send him to us when He had gone away.

I worship a God who is so big he fills the universe and so small he fits in my heart.

It is not that I do not know what the Mormons teach, it is that I know it and actively reject it as a false God made in the image of men. We do not worship the same God in a different way since your god is just one of many gods and My God is the only true and real God of all the universe, not just of this planet. In fact the god of this world is Satan as taught in the Bible, and the teachings of the Mormon god, that men can become gods, are a teaching of the serpent from the garden, and I actively reject it.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. The God of the universe, or the small and capricious god of Joseph Smith’s inventive mind.
Click to expand...
I was going to say something similar, but you nailed it.

Their god is a a divinized man who earned his godhead, who is merely the most recent generation in an eternal regression of gods, and whom a mormon man aspires to become himself in the next generation. I will not even join them in a contemplative prayer over the Book of Mormon, because praying to the god they worship is akin to praying to a space alien.
 
According to the “United States Catholic Catechism for Adults” page 53 it states:

“The Father cannot be the Father without the Son, nor can the Son be the Son without the Father. The Holy Spirit is related to the Father and the Son who both send him forth.”

The way I like to think about the the Holy Trinity is that Jesus is God on earth. God works through Jesus, having Jesus teaching His will and that the Holy Spirit is God’s breath, teaching, guiding and consoler.

I would also recommend learning about the Mormon faith, if you plan on discussing or debating (which is what will probably end up happening) the two different beliefs. Like their concept of the Holy Trinity or “Godhead” as they call it. For example when Joseph Smith had his first vision, he saw “two personages,” the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son where made of bones and flesh. So they believe that the Godhead is three seperate entities.

D&C 130:22 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

His response maybe, something along the lines of, “this is what God revealed to Joseph Smith through Revelation. That’s how I know it is true.”

However in the Book of Mormon it is taught in 2 Nephi 31:32 “And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.”

and

Mormon 7:7 “And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.”

I would also recommend learning about their teaching of God. Their entire concept of God is a lot different than many Christian religions. They believe that every man can be God and that God was once a man, so one could think that at some point God has sinned, because every man sins, hence the reason for baptism…

Depending on what they were taught, he/she may believe that Adam is God, and that God is progressing and learning new truths, as taught by Brigham Young. The mainstream Mormon church now state that when BY taught these, he spoke as a Man and not as a Prophet. The LDS Church according to Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, states that Adam is God was a Theory and that God Progressing was a contradiction of other BY teachings, because God is the Alpha Omega and knows all.
 
Stoutgig said:
I have an LDS (Morman) friend with whom I often discuss the faith. I have a hard time putting the mysteries of our faith into words at times and the trinity can be a whopper. I have done some reading and have found a way to distinguish person from being. Essentially by explaining that a human is one being and one person, while non-human creatures (such as a dog for example) are one being and zero persons. Therefore it stands to reason that if you can have one being that is less than one person, one being that is equal to one person, then you can have one being that is more than one person. But I know my friend and his first response is going to be to compare the Trinity to a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. So I am looking for tips or advice to combat this known response plus any other ways that I might successfully convey the true teaching of the Trinity.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should start from what you both have in common: I understand that the Mormons DO believe Jesus is God.
 
Contrary to the previous poster, it seems to me that when it comes to the Mormons, you actually need to start with what they mean by God. It bears little resemblance to the God worshipped by Judaism, Christianity and Islam: namely, a God who is infinite, absolute and one. Until you address that, you aren’t even having the same conversation.

salaam.
 
Hypatia said:
Contrary to the previous poster, it seems to me that when it comes to the Mormons, you actually need to start with what they mean by God. It bears little resemblance to the God worshipped by Judaism, Christianity and Islam: namely, a God who is infinite, absolute and one. Until you address that, you aren’t even having the same conversation.

salaam.
Click to expand...
It was explained to me that Mormons believe that when Elohim (God the Father) and Jesus were transmuted from human to god they were, essentially, assimilated into the pre-existing god-force. It’s kind of like how Star Trek’s Borg aliens assimilated people. And because they believe this god-force is both one and infinite, then the transmuted Elohim and Jesus can therefore claim to be “one god.”

This transmutation from human to god is what devout mormon men aspire to for themselves.
40.png
Cashue:
Maybe you should start from what you both have in common: I understand that the Mormons DO believe Jesus is God.
Click to expand...
What we DON’T have in common is the basic understanding of what God is.

Christians worship the one eternally unchanging God in [only] three persons, who is the sole creator of everything that ever has existed or will exist.

Mormons worship someone called Elohim who was a man and earned his right to join the pre-existing god-force, like all his fathers and grandfathers before him. After that he was granted the right to organize pre-existent matter into the universe as we currently know it. And they claim Jesus became part of god the same way.
 
Nan_S said:
It was explained to me that Mormons believe that when Elohim (God the Father) and Jesus were transmuted from human to god they were, essentially, assimilated into the pre-existing god-force. It’s kind of like how Star Trek’s Borg aliens assimilated people. And because they believe this god-force is both one and infinite, then the transmuted Elohim and Jesus can therefore claim to be “one god.”

This transmutation from human to god is what devout mormon men aspire to for themselves.

What we DON’T have in common is the basic understanding of what God is.

Christians worship the one eternally unchanging God in [only] three persons, who is the sole creator of everything that ever has existed or will exist.

Mormons worship someone called Elohim who was a man and earned his right to join the pre-existing god-force, like all his fathers and grandfathers before him. After that he was granted the right to organize pre-existent matter into the universe as we currently know it. And they claim Jesus became part of god the same way.
Click to expand...
I have never heard the god-force story, though it is as good as anything else I have ever heard offered from Mormons, I suppose. As you note, the incoherence concerned what they mean by God is closely related to the lack of any coherent doctrine of creation within Mormonism.

Back to their understanding of God: I have heard everything from “we don’t need to know that in order to be saved” to “God is one because the various persons have a common will, but they are not the One; they are three separate beings.”

salaam.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top