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JimG
Guest
Are 21st century audiences incapable of reading Frank J. Sheed?
How about Theology for Beginners
and Theology and Sanity.
How about Theology for Beginners
and Theology and Sanity.
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Fiasco
Guest
T & S should be compulsory reading for all literate Catholics…maybe priests should require reading it as a Confession penance.
The online versions are OK for those who can’t purchase the book.
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Wesrock
Guest
If we’re going to refer to Genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
The Church Fathers liked to identify the Trinity in this: The mention of God is seen as the Father, the breath/wind/spirit moving over the waters is the Holy Spirit. God creates through his Word (Logos, the Son).
For some scriptural insight into the divinity of the Holy Spirit: catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-divinity-of-the-holy-spirit
Not Catholic or fully vetted, but this page includes a lot of early Church Fathers’ quotes: apostles-creed.org/confessional-reformed-christian-theology/theology/quotes-from-the-early-church-fathers-the-holy-spirit/
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simple_soul
Guest
I don’t know if this would be considered basic logic but this is where I am at in my ponderings of this awsomly fearful and loving mystery.
In barrowing this quote from Genesis by Wesrock;
And coupling this with John 1
And then remembering how we are made in the image and likeness of God it got me thinking that maybe the Trinity can be explained like this. We are a living reflection of the Trinity. We have ideas. We create. We speak and breath life into our creation. Our spirit, breath and words created our lives and what we produce with them. I guess I kinda see God the same way. God, being the man is God the Father. Him creating and speaking to bring His idea or creation of the cosmos and us along with it into reality is His Word, God the Son. And Him breathing His life into His creation as He spoke/speaks, is God the Holy Spirit. In short to get what I understand is a grasp of understanding the Trinity I look at an every day ordinary man and woman. We are, we speak and we create and bring our creations to life all through our word and spirit/will and breath our life into our creation. I think of it in an artistic sense. It is quite humbling to think of ourselves as an idea and creation of some one else.
Anyway, not sure if this helps in the logical way you were looking for but hope it does.
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otjm
Guest
You believe it is an inability to explain the fundamenatls of our faith using logic.
I disagree with your starting point. Aside from the fact that both Aquinas and Sheed use logic, I disagree with the main premise. We are full on with the results of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution, and the philosophers (in large part) who followed after.
The greatest danger to the faith is secularism, something that children even in preschool are subjected to. And our institutions of “learning”, at least in the US, abhor the thought of anything Christian being addressed in class - although the snowflakes now in various part of the country are demanding that Islam be taught.
Coupled with secularism is the sexual revolution, and the results spawned from that is that children as early as age 13 are engaging in intercourse - with entirely predictable results.
And the new wave for the snowflakes is the fluidity of gender identity - another head trip.
It is hard to get to a teenager when they have had, too often, minimal contact with the Church, parents who are more likely than not to not be attending Mass on a regular basis, and those same parents who likewise had poor catechesis. We have basically lost two generations, and the third is at risk.
And the matter is not about logic; it is about falling in love with God. That is not to say that doctrine has no importance; but even an atheist can spout doctrine.
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dutchcatholic
Guest
Thanks for all the replies. Ill try and give my view on all but if I miss anyone please forgive me. Wonderful books to read there but each one would probably require a seperate thread so Ill leave it to each individual to choose. I was hoping that those who have read the books would provide a small summary as to enlighten us.
@otjm the reason why I pointed out logic, biblical evidence and science is purely due to the modern way of thinking (including myself). My niece/nephews question from top to bottom and ask for evidence and logic for everything and am sure this would be true for majority. Most church attendants are over the age of 60 so i think it is an important issue that needs to be addressed.
We had quotes from genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Theres no mention of the father, the son and holy ghost being in a triunity. The same thing apllies to John 1: 1 In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. We can draw some comparisons but it doesnt really define the three persons in one.
Interestingly no one has mentioned 1 john 5:7 for me this is the only verse to define trinity in the whole bible.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
@otjm the reason why I pointed out logic, biblical evidence and science is purely due to the modern way of thinking (including myself). My niece/nephews question from top to bottom and ask for evidence and logic for everything and am sure this would be true for majority. Most church attendants are over the age of 60 so i think it is an important issue that needs to be addressed.
We had quotes from genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Theres no mention of the father, the son and holy ghost being in a triunity. The same thing apllies to John 1: 1 In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. We can draw some comparisons but it doesnt really define the three persons in one.
Interestingly no one has mentioned 1 john 5:7 for me this is the only verse to define trinity in the whole bible.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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Fiasco
Guest
Don’t forget you don’t even have to purchase a copy of Theology and Sanity; you can read it online. And download it. (Pretty sure you can, bit-by-bit.)
Go to Post #20, and read what Frank Sheed and Karl Keating have to say.
Click on both of those links to pick the one that’s easier to read. (And there are others.)
In any case, to get a decent idea of the doctrine, you have to be prepared to spend a fair bit of time and effort on it.
As far as a small summary goes: how does one do that for a subject like this? Just take Karl Keating’s statement as a good recommendation.
The Blessed Trinity is The Divine Family, so marriage and family life should be a reflection of the inner life of God.
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Usagi
Guest
The thing to remember about the Bible in this case is that it serves as the primary data. It doesn’t necessarily provide the arguments and conclusions about the Trinity (which wasn’t solidified for several hundred more years), but it provides the information which made the final doctrine necessary.
The Bible never says “One God in three Persons,” but it refers in different places to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as divine yet distinct from each other. And of course the Bible repeatedly insists that there is only one (real) God. “One God in three Persons” is the result of the Church’s contemplation of that data and trying to work out how it could all be true at the same time.
The Bible never says “One God in three Persons,” but it refers in different places to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as divine yet distinct from each other. And of course the Bible repeatedly insists that there is only one (real) God. “One God in three Persons” is the result of the Church’s contemplation of that data and trying to work out how it could all be true at the same time.
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JimG
Guest
The Trinity is a doctrine derived from Revelation, not philosophy nor science. We would not have known it had it not been revealed. That does not mean that it is entirely unintelligible to us, but to fruitfully make a study of the Trinity, we must first study some pre-requisites. The Trinity is, after all the inner life of God, and God is pure Spirit.
That means we must first understand the meaning of Spirit. Spirit is not matter. It is not extended in space of time. Frank Sheed can help with that. Unless we can make a distinction between matter and spirit we can make no progress.
Second, we must spend some time studying the “attributes” of God, which can be inferred from philosophy. Things such as omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. By analogy with humans who are created by God, we can think of God as having the faculties of intellect and will, the ability to know and to love. Once we’ve spent some time contemplating that, we can consider what God knows. Obviously, He knows himself.
You might say that in the very act of existing he inevitably generates an idea of himself. I can generate an idea of myself but it is imperfect. It doesn’t perfectly match my reality. But God’s idea of Himself is perfect. There is nothing in his idea of himself that is lacking, not even personhood. We call this the Divine Word or the Logos, or the Son, or the Second Person of the Trinity.
But I’m going to stop there. I don’t wish to re-write Sheed.
That means we must first understand the meaning of Spirit. Spirit is not matter. It is not extended in space of time. Frank Sheed can help with that. Unless we can make a distinction between matter and spirit we can make no progress.
Second, we must spend some time studying the “attributes” of God, which can be inferred from philosophy. Things such as omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. By analogy with humans who are created by God, we can think of God as having the faculties of intellect and will, the ability to know and to love. Once we’ve spent some time contemplating that, we can consider what God knows. Obviously, He knows himself.
You might say that in the very act of existing he inevitably generates an idea of himself. I can generate an idea of myself but it is imperfect. It doesn’t perfectly match my reality. But God’s idea of Himself is perfect. There is nothing in his idea of himself that is lacking, not even personhood. We call this the Divine Word or the Logos, or the Son, or the Second Person of the Trinity.
But I’m going to stop there. I don’t wish to re-write Sheed.
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Ernie07
Guest
Hello,
Interesting topic that I’ll take a crack at…
To me, the Trinity is one of the classic examples of proving the authority of the Church. I say this because you won’t find a bible passage that states distinctly that “God is 3 persons in 1 being”. Rather, there are many passages that imply a Trinitarian God. Some passages include 1 John 5-7, MT 28:19, 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Peter 1:1-2, Romans 15:16, Ephesians 2:18-22 among others. Each passage discusses the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Godly manner. However, since none of these passages clearly states that “God is in 3 persons in 1 being” those passages are up for interpretation. And that is what happened in the early Church.
In response to Arianism the first council at Nicaea was convened where the Nicene Creed was developed that spoke about Jesus being “begotten not made”. But, since the initial creed didn’t directly address the relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit the creed was added to in the next council at Constantinople in 381 A.D. At this this time the Trinity was more fully defined by the Church. We believe in the Trinity (Catholics, Protestants, non-denominational Christians) because the Church Jesus established said so back approximately 1700 years ago. Christians at that time, unlike the splintered Christianity we have today, all belonged to the single Christian Church. Everyone knew and understood the authority Jesus gave to the Church and this authority continues today.
I know I’m preaching to the choir to all Catholics on this site, but I just wanted to point out that the doctrine of the Trinity is an excellent way to discuss the authority of the Church.
Cool topic, thanks.
-Ernie-
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PluniaZ
Guest
Very true. When I was in the PCA, another member said he rejected the Trinity because it wasn’t in the Bible. Another friend tried to convince him using the Church Fathers, and I was like, “The Church who???”
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