Explanation of the Book of abraham(LDS)

[Stephen168]

The scripture you cite does not “prove” the Trinity. We use it as an example OF the Trinity, but it provides absolutely nothing about the Ousia or one Divine Being. In fact, Mormons use just this verse to make it “plain” that there is not one Essence or Being. The Bible can be made to say all manner of things.

That’s why you should never interpret the Bible outside the Church that gave it to us; the Catholic Church. Nice distraction from the subject of the thread.

Now back to your claim that the OP was blatantly incorrect. How is the OP blatantly incorrect?

 

[ParkerD]

1. These Egyptian scholars…what is their translation or evaluation of this papyrus? And these Egyptian scholars…are their credentials impeccable ( not to be mean, I just want to make sure that they are real, not made up credentials) and well known and respected in their field of study? If they are well known, then you should be able to name them, right?

1. It is known that the Rosetta stone contains a translation at a single point in time.

Pablope,

1. One whose writing is cited is Dr. Klaus Baer. I don’t know his specific credentials, but he focused solely on the facsimiles and the comparison of the translation of the characters on those facsimiles with commonly held understanding about the meanings of the characters based on the Rosetta Stone. This kind of comparison is the entire basis of the disputes about whether the Book of Abraham contained the real writings of Abraham–though as I have noted, Abraham only mentions the first facsimile in passing as a point of reference about the use of an altar.
2. Abraham taught Pharaoh about astronomy, not about the Jewish religion, which incidentally doesn’t begin being called the “Jewish religion” until quite a bit later. No doubt they talked about the after-life within their conversations. The Egyptians had a long-standing set of religious traditions, it appears, but those were subject to change over time.
3. The point made by folks like Baer is that the facsimiles have other meanings than the meaning shown in the Pearl of Great Price. There is no available papyrus or copy wherewith one could look at the text of the Book of Abraham as compared with hieroglyphics, since that papyrus scroll is no longer available due evidently to the Chicago fire as I noted, or to other loss. The translation process was totally different than an Egyptology comparison type of translation process. It used the gift and power of God.

As far as reading, studying, and gaining a confirming witness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, I am very familiar with that through reading the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price which includes the Book of Abraham. False spirits can’t duplicate the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost, though they would certainly try and deceive with imitations or try and destroy faith through prodding the efforts of others to discredit. That is an easy thing for false spirits to do, but the difference is readily discernible as one becomes familiar with that difference.

 

[jsday187]

±-------.---------------------.--------+
| Fac2 |Main Text| Fac3 |

Imagine this ascii drawing is the extant papyrus. Scholars have agreed that this particular papyrus was originally assembled like this before it separated into fragments, with Fax2 at the start and Fax3 at the end with the main text in between. What has been found here is a complete papyrus, and according to scholars no more would be have been added to this papyrus based on comparison to other complete Book of Breathing papyrus’.

So in other words what is available now is a complete papyrus with nothing missing. There are some holes and torn corners from aging here and there in this otherwise complete scroll.

Now in the the Book of Abraham, “Abraham” refers to Fax2 in his writings by calling it the “picture/drawing” at the start of the record. Then he later refers to Fax3 by calling it the “picture/drawing” at the end of the record.

That doesn’t seem to leave room for the Book of Abraham’s text being on another completely different scroll.

And scholars say that not only does the Main text have nothing to do or say about Abraham but neither do the facsimiles like Joseph Smith claimed they did.

Sorry if my pictures don’t make sense. Order/read the book “By his own hand upon Papyrus” for full-size pictures and explanation of the Papyrus in comparison to Joseph Smith’s “translation” and explanation.

 

[ParkerD]

… Then he later refers to Fax3 by calling it the “picture/drawing” at the end of the record.

JSDay,

He does?

What is the specific chapter and verse to which this statement above is referring? I don’t find anything remotely similar to such a statement, and have just re-read the entire Book of Abraham looking for such a thing. ??

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

1. One whose writing is cited is Dr. Klaus Baer. I don’t know his specific credentials, but he focused solely on the facsimiles and the comparison of the translation of the characters on those facsimiles with commonly held understanding about the meanings of the characters based on the Rosetta Stone. T
2. Abraham taught Pharaoh about astronomy, not about the Jewish religion, which incidentally doesn’t begin being called the “Jewish religion” until quite a bit later. No doubt they talked about the after-life within their conversations. The Egyptians had a long-standing set of religious traditions, it appears, but those were subject to change over time.
3. The point made by folks like Baer is that the facsimiles have other meanings than the meaning shown in the Pearl of Great Price. There is no available papyrus or copy wherewith one could look at the text of the Book of Abraham as compared with hieroglyphics, since that papyrus scroll is no longer available due evidently to the Chicago fire as I noted, or to other loss. The translation process was totally different than an Egyptology comparison type of translation process. It used the gift and power of God.

As far as reading, studying, and gaining a confirming witness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, I am very familiar with that through reading the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price which includes the Book of Abraham. False spirits can’t duplicate the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost, though they would certainly try and deceive with imitations or try and destroy faith through prodding the efforts of others to discredit. That is an easy thing for false spirits to do, but the difference is readily discernible as one becomes familiar with that difference.

Well…Parker, I googled Klaus Baer…and came across this quotes regarding the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was supposed to have been taken, by noted Egyptologists:

*Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted, of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."[27]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"[28]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No. 3] into a king and Osiris into Abraham.”[29]

False reconstruction of lacunae

Several Egyptologists, including Theodule Deveria, Klaus Baer, Richard A. Parker, and Dr. Albert Lythgoe noted that portions of Facsimile 1 appeared to be incorrect, based on comparison with other similar Egyptian vignettes, and suspected that they had been reconstructed from lacunae (gaps) in the original papyri.[30] The papyri containing Facsimile 1 is acknowledged by Egyptologists to be a version of The Book of Breathings.[31][32][33][34][35] Lythgoe well summarized the consensus among these egyptologists:

"the god Anubus, bending over the mummy, was shown with a human and strangely un-Egyptian head, instead of a jackal's head usual to the scene."[36]

There is more, here is the source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

On 2) Abraham taught Pharaoh about astronomy, not about the Jewish religion, which incidentally doesn’t begin being called the “Jewish religion” until quite a bit later.

Question: Abraham of Genesis, and I am assuming it is the same Abraham in the B of A…was a farmer, shepherd, not a trained man or scholar, there were no schools then…so how could he teach Pharaoh about astronomy, if he did not study it in the first place. In addition, was there even the science of astronomy during the time of Abraham?

No doubt they talked about the after-life within their conversations. The Egyptians had a long-standing set of religious traditions, it appears, but those were subject to change over time.

Question: How could you possibly know what Abraham and Pharoah talked about? And why would pharaoh, a sovereign, pay attention to Abraham who was just a mere shepherd/farmer? And was it not Joseph, not Abraham, who predicted the period of plenty and famine in Egypt?

There is no available papyrus or copy wherewith one could look at the text of the Book of Abraham as compared with hieroglyphics, since that papyrus scroll is no longer available due evidently to the Chicago fire as I noted, or to other loss.

The article I read and cited above states otherwise, some of the papyrus was discovered in a NY museum.

As far as reading, studying, and gaining a confirming witness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost,

Well, if it is really the HG or HS as I know from the CC, how come it has not opened your eyes to the truth about Joseph Smith translations and the Book of Abraham?

 

[benidict]

no offense to my Latter Day Saint friends. but i found this incident in Joseph Smiths life, quite amusing. when you look at his rendition of the completion of the drawing, and look at the complete ones that were found from egyption funerary text. it really is quite funny. lol! i wont post them here, we have younger viewers, and the full pictures that were discovered are more of an adult nature. lol! peace

 

[ParkerD]

Pablope,

I will answer your latest post, but first I thought it would be well in laying a foundation for understanding what I have thought about on this subject, to provide the following link to an Encyclopedia article on Egyptian Hieroglyphics, which notes as I had earlier found in another such article, that the origin of hieroglyphics is probably Sumer, in Mesopotamia, and notes also the changes in meanings I had discussed in an earlier post.

jrank.org/history/pages/6630/Egyptian-Hieroglyphic.html

 

[ParkerD]

Pablope,

Here is another link to a foundational work that is a source for understanding the origins of Egyptian hieroglyphics:

books.google.com/books?id=QD9g1mMaAAsC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=lettre+a+M+Dacier&source=bl&ots=-69s5s4gpS&sig=ojeR59w0xYtWhD577lqcZuzFC6A&hl=en&ei=UHn_TN_6HYWSnwfwwaWsCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=lettre%20a%20M%20Dacier&f=false

 

[ParkerD]

Pablope,

Another link that I will refer to in my response to you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

 

[ParkerD]

1. Well…Parker, I googled Klaus Baer…and came across this quotes regarding the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was supposed to have been taken, by noted Egyptologists:

*Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted, of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."[27]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"[28]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No. 3] into a king and Osiris into Abraham.”[29]

False reconstruction of lacunae

Several Egyptologists, including Theodule Deveria, Klaus Baer, Richard A. Parker, and Dr. Albert Lythgoe noted that portions of Facsimile 1 appeared to be incorrect, based on comparison with other similar Egyptian vignettes, and suspected that they had been reconstructed from lacunae (gaps) in the original papyri.[30] The papyri containing Facsimile 1 is acknowledged by Egyptologists to be a version of The Book of Breathings.[31][32][33][34][35] Lythgoe well summarized the consensus among these egyptologists:

"the god Anubus, bending over the mummy, was shown with a human and strangely un-Egyptian head, instead of a jackal's head usual to the scene."[36]

There is more, here is the source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

1. Question: Abraham of Genesis, and I am assuming it is the same Abraham in the B of A…was a farmer, shepherd, not a trained man or scholar, there were no schools then…so how could he teach Pharaoh about astronomy, if he did not study it in the first place. In addition, was there even the science of astronomy during the time of Abraham?
2. Question: How could you possibly know what Abraham and Pharoah talked about? And why would pharaoh, a sovereign, pay attention to Abraham who was just a mere shepherd/farmer? And was it not Joseph, not Abraham, who predicted the period of plenty and famine in Egypt?
3. The article I read and cited above states otherwise, some of the papyrus was discovered in a NY museum.
4. Well, if it is really the HG or HS as I know from the CC, how come it has not opened your eyes to the truth about Joseph Smith translations and the Book of Abraham?

Pablope,
2) Abraham was a tradesman as well as a shepherd, and he was somewhat self-taught plus taught by revelation from God, and was evidently a brilliant man intellectually. There was such a thing as studying the heavens during his time, about 2000 BC. There was perhaps as much interest in heavenly objects in those days, among the people generally, as in our day.

1. Just because Joseph was in Egypt in the time of a famine, does not mean there wasn’t an earlier famine (Genesis 12:10) in the Middle East that sent Abraham into Egypt to get away from the famine in Moreh. Those are separate events. Abraham had a relationship with Pharaoh that was more than thinking of him as a “mere shepherd” (Genesis 12:18). Abraham tells more about himself in the book of Abraham.
2. I knew that, but there were other papyrus scrolls than those found and now on display.
3. The book of Abraham is not taken from the facsimiles, as I noted before. The truths communicated from God through the Holy Ghost can be scoffed at and disregarded, but that does not make them less true. I simply am familiar with the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost regarding truths from God, and the book of Abraham (which is apart from the facsimiles disputed by the Wikipedia article) contains many worthwhile truths.

I’ll answer (1) when I have time, but thought I should give a response tonight for the time being to the shorter items.

 

[pablope]

Pablope,
2) Abraham was a tradesman as well as a shepherd, and he was somewhat self-taught plus taught by revelation from God, and was evidently a brilliant man intellectually. There was such a thing as studying the heavens during his time, about 2000 BC.** There was perhaps** as much interest in heavenly objects in those days, among the people generally, as in our day.

Pure conjecture on your part, Parker…how do you know what was revealed by God to Abraham? How do you know what he knew intellectually? There were no schools then for ordinary shepherds. How could being a tradesman make him an astronomer? Sorry to tell you, please back your statements with historical facts. And your last line of defense is he was somewhat self-taught plus taught by revelation from God**. God, (unless you can cite something to contradict from the Bible) imparts knowledge of Himself, imparts commands…not knowledge of astronomy, knowledge of how to translate an ancient manuscript. These are talents we humans develop ourselves according to our abilities.

1. Just because Joseph was in Egypt in the time of a famine, does not mean there wasn’t an earlier famine (Genesis 12:10) in the Middle East that sent Abraham into Egypt to get away from the famine in Moreh. Those are separate events. Abraham had a relationship with Pharaoh that was more than thinking of him as a “mere shepherd” (Genesis 12:18). Abraham tells more about himself in the book of Abraham.

misread what you meant about the famine. So I reviewed Genesis 12.
]Here is Genesis 12:10-20 (King James Version)

10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

14And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.

15The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house.

16And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

**17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram’s wife.
**
18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

20And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

**What relationship are you talking about? Look at verse 17. Verse 20 states Pharaoh dismissed Abram because of verse 17. Verse 18 does not speak of any learning relationship.

**

1. I knew that, but there were other papyrus scrolls than those found and now on display.
2. The book of Abraham is not taken from the facsimiles, as I noted before.

Then where did or what was the basis of the book of A? Invention?

The truths communicated from God through the Holy Ghost can be scoffed at and disregarded, but that does not make them less true. I simply am familiar with the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost regarding truths from God, and the book of Abraham (which is apart from the facsimiles disputed by the Wikipedia article) contains many worthwhile truths.

**If it is really the Holy spirit or Ghost, that is guiding you, how come you still cannot see the truth behind the book of abraham?
**

I’ll answer (1) when I have time, but thought I should give a response tonight for the time being to the shorter items.

 

[ParkerD]

responses in blue

Pablope,
I suppose that you think one writing about Abraham must begin with an ancient historical text that describes his life and times, and that you have never even read the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. (I don’t know that it would make much difference if you did read that, since some of your response shows we have a disconnect happening anyway about the other papyrus that was larger and contained the writings that were the source of the actual Book of Abraham–not the papyrus now in the museum.)

If you read Hebrews 11:8-19 and compare with Genesis 11 and Genesis 22, you will perhaps understand that Paul had more access to knowledge about Abraham than we have through the Bible of today.

God could certainly reveal knowledge about the heavens to Abraham–this is something God can surely do. Sacred revealed knowledge would not necessarily be written up in the Bible–in other words, the Bible doesn’t contain everything that God ever revealed to every prophet to whom He spoke, whether by revelation, by dreams, by visions, or by a personal appearance such as Abraham received. (Genesis 12:7)

 

[ParkerD]

Pablope,
Here is my response to item 1 from our prior conversation:

There are two references by Abraham to the facsimiles, as follows:

Abraham 1: 12 And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record.
13 It was made after the form of a bedstead, such as was had among the Chaldeans, and it stood before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.
14 That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics.

Here is a quote from the list in the Wikipedia article you had linked:

1 The Angel of the Lord. “The soul of Osiris (which should have a human head)”
2 Abraham fastened upon an altar. “Osiris coming to life on his couch, which is in the shape of a lion”
3 The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice. “The God Anubis (who should have a jackal’s head) effecting the resurrection of Osiris”

My comments:

There is no depiction of Osiris that matches the depiction of either figure from facsimile 1 that is described as “the soul of Osiris” or “Osiris coming to life”. You can use Wikipedia to go to the common depiction of Osiris–it is nothing similar to those shown in facsimile 1.

Abraham 1:13 said the “altar” was “made after the form of a bedstead” which certainly can be called “couch” and be the same thing.

Elkenah as a name matches (knowing that vowels are not written, but are only understood, and that consonants may not be one-to-one but are representations of the sound) the following name that is another name for Osiris:

Khenti-Amentiu

A resurrection would not be effected with a sword or dagger in one’s hand.

The “sons of Horus” mentioned in the list in the Wikipedia article are Egyptian gods. although the name titles do not match those listed on facsimile 1. The idea conveyed is similar–they have to do with passage into the next world and various protections in that world, as pagan gods.

That Abraham was in Egypt for food would match the depiction of food that is shown as the symbol described as “Abraham in Egypt”.

Facsimile 2 is associated with the creation of the earth and the heavens, on both “sides” of the descriptions.

In Facsimile 3, Isis is listed as an Egyptian goddess, but Isis also means “throne” and “representation of Pharaoh’s power” (as noted in a Wikipedia article on the subject).

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article about Maat:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0t

The description by Joseph Smith of “Prince of Pharaoh” may have been an incomplete description. Joseph Smith may not have understood that by Prince of Pharaoh may have been meant “wisdom of Pharaoh” which would match the concept of Maat.

My overall point is that the meaning of religious symbols would of course change within the Egyptian culture during the period from 2000 BC (time of Abraham) to 100 BC (time of the Rosetta Stone translation), so there would not be a one-to-one match as far as symbolism on hieroglyphics at those two periods of time. It is significant that there are symbolisms as translated into “ideograms” related to creation and the heavens, to the Egyptian gods (whatever their names), to human sacrifice which has been found to have been existent within ancient Egyptian culture, and to preparation for going into the next world from this world when a king or Pharaoh died, and the need for special knowledge preparatory to the resurrection.

 

[pablope]

Pablope,
(I don’t know that it would make much difference if you did read that, since some of your response shows we have a disconnect happening anyway about the other papyrus that was larger and contained the writings that were the source of the actual Book of Abraham–not the papyrus now in the museum.)

If you read Hebrews 11:8-19 and compare with Genesis 11 and Genesis 22, you will perhaps understand that Paul had more access to knowledge about Abraham than we have through the Bible of today.

God could certainly reveal knowledge about the heavens to Abraham–this is something God can surely do. Sacred revealed knowledge would not necessarily be written up in the Bible–in other words, the Bible doesn’t contain everything that God ever revealed to every prophet to whom He spoke, whether by revelation, by dreams, by visions, or by a personal appearance such as Abraham received. (Genesis 12:7)

I suppose that you think one writing about Abraham must begin with an ancient historical text that describes his life and times, and that you have never even read the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price.

A writing, especially ancient, has to reflect the time of the subject at hand, in this case Abraham, and must have factual or historical, and archealogical evidence to back it up, otherwise, it is subject to doubts and may even be fiction.

From the article itself that disproves the Book as being real:
…Anachronisms exist in the Book of Abraham which indicate that it was not written in Abraham’s time… Transliterated text from the recovered papyri and facsimiles published in the Book of Abraham contain no direct references, either historical or textual, to Abraham. Rather, they parallel other texts from the Egyptian Book of the Dead and Book of Breathings…Abraham’s name does not appear anywhere in the papyri or the facsimiles…dated to the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period, 1500 years after Abraham’s supposed lifetime…Critics feel this is relevant because of Joseph Smith’s statement that the papyri were “written by [Abraham’s] own hand upon papyrus.”

If you read Hebrews 11:8-19 and compare with Genesis 11 and Genesis 22, you will perhaps understand that Paul had more access to knowledge about Abraham than we have through the Bible of today.

Parker, I read these and reviewed this as you suggested. Gen 11 deals with the lineage of Abram, Gen 22 deals with Abraham’s sacrifice of his son, and Heb 11 talks about faith. Paul describes the faith of Abraham and other OT righteous, so how does it connect to Paul’s knowledge of Abraham? Puzzling.

God could certainly reveal knowledge about the heavens to Abraham–this is something God can surely do.

Parker, again, this is just an assertion and conjecture…as you yourself stated “God could”…but I know God did not. Look at Gen 12: 17-19:

17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram’s wife.
18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Does this speak of Abraham talking about stars to Pharaoh? Looks like Pharaoh got scared and sent Abram and his family away right away.

 

[pablope]

Pablope,
Here is my response to item 1 from our prior conversation:

There are two references by Abraham to the facsimiles, as follows:

Here is a quote from the list in the Wikipedia article you had linked:

1 The Angel of the Lord. “The soul of Osiris (which should have a human head)”
2 Abraham fastened upon an altar. “Osiris coming to life on his couch, which is in the shape of a lion”
3 The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice. “The God Anubis (who should have a jackal’s head) effecting the resurrection of Osiris”

My comments:

There is no depiction of Osiris that matches the depiction of either figure from facsimile 1 that is described as “the soul of Osiris” or “Osiris coming to life”. You can use Wikipedia to go to the common depiction of Osiris–it is nothing similar to those shown in facsimile 1.

Abraham 1:13 said the “altar” was “made after the form of a bedstead” which certainly can be called “couch” and be the same thing.

Elkenah as a name matches (knowing that vowels are not written, but are only understood, and that consonants may not be one-to-one but are representations of the sound) the following name that is another name for Osiris:

Khenti-Amentiu

A resurrection would not be effected with a sword or dagger in one’s hand.

Here is a link to a Wikipedia article about Maat:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0t

The description by Joseph Smith of “Prince of Pharaoh” may have been an incomplete description. Joseph Smith may not have understood that by Prince of Pharaoh may have been meant “wisdom of Pharaoh” which would match the concept of Maat.

My overall point is that the meaning of religious symbols would of course change within the Egyptian culture during the period from 2000 BC (time of Abraham) to 100 BC (time of the Rosetta Stone translation), so there would not be a one-to-one match as far as symbolism on hieroglyphics at those two periods of time. It is significant that there are symbolisms as translated into “ideograms” related to creation and the heavens, to the Egyptian gods (whatever their names), to human sacrifice which has been found to have been existent within ancient Egyptian culture, and to preparation for going into the next world from this world when a king or Pharaoh died, and the need for special knowledge preparatory to the resurrection.

I think you are clinging to straws. Did Joseph Smith even know/name the actual name of the Pharaoh at the time of Abram’s time in Egypt? Would not have this been in the papyri?

Here is a quote from the list in the Wikipedia article you had linked:

1 The Angel of the Lord. “The soul of Osiris (which should have a human head)”
2 Abraham fastened upon an altar. “Osiris coming to life on his couch, which is in the shape of a lion”
3 The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice. "The God Anubis (who should have a jackal’s head) effe

Parker, these are comparisons of Smith’s translation and the Egyptologists translations.

From the article itself:

Figure Joseph Smith Explanation[41] Explanation by
Egyptologists (quotes are
from Deveria 1860)
1 The Angel of the Lord. " The soul of Osiris (which
should have a human
head)"
2 Abraham fastened upon an altar. “Osiris coming to life on his
couch, which is in the shape of
a lion”
3 The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice.

                                                             "The God Anubis (who 
                                                                          should have a jackal's 
                                                             head) effecting the resurrection of Osiris"

4 The altar for sacrifice by the idolatrous priests,
standing before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah,
Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh.

                                                              "The funeral bed of Osiris"

Who got it right, Joseph Smith or the Egyptologists?

from the article itself:

**The translations among all of these scholars are consistent.

The translation by both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists bears no resemblance to the text of the Book of Abraham as purportedly translated by Joseph Smith. Several excerpts of these modern translations are shown below.

Egytologist Klaus Baer translated the writing flanking the vignette which was the source of Facsimile No. 1 as follows:

... the prophet of Amonrasonter, prophet ?] of Min Bull-of-his-Mother, prophet ?] of Khons the Governor... Hor, justified, son of the holder of the same titles, master of secrets, and purifier of the gods Osorwer, justified ?]... Tikhebyt, justified. May your ba live among them, and may you be buried in the West...May you give him a good, splendid burial on the West of Thebes just like ...[76]

**

 

[ParkerD]

…Critics feel this is relevant because of Joseph Smith’s statement that the papyri were “written by [Abraham’s] own hand upon papyrus.”

 

[ParkerD]

I think you are clinging to straws. Did Joseph Smith even know/name the actual name of the Pharaoh at the time of Abram’s time in Egypt? Would not have this been in the papyri?

Egytologist Klaus Baer translated the writing flanking the vignette which was the source of Facsimile No. 1 as follows:

... the prophet of Amonrasonter, prophet ?] of Min Bull-of-his-Mother, prophet ?] of Khons the Governor... Hor, justified, son of the holder of the same titles, master of secrets, and purifier of the gods Osorwer, justified ?]... Tikhebyt, justified. May your ba live among them, and may you be buried in the West...May you give him a good, splendid burial on the West of Thebes just like ...[76]

Pablope,

I was aware that what I had pasted included the JS version and the “translated by scholars” version of certain words or ideograms.

The articles I had referenced previously showed that hieroglyphics and its use evolved over time, and wasn’t static at all. So for a scholar to say that a pictograph means precisely such and such does not acknowledge that that same pictograph could have meant something else hundreds of years earlier–and they just don’t have enough evidence to be able to say for sure that the facsimiles were from later time periods than when Abraham was alive, as they assert. New evidence that changes their thinking is found often in Egypt as other archeology is uncovered and examined.

I have seen no explanation about the sword or dagger–have you in your reading?

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

I was aware that what I had pasted included the JS version and the “translated by scholars” version of certain words or ideograms.

The articles I had referenced previously showed that hieroglyphics and its use evolved over time, and wasn’t static at all. So for a scholar to say that a pictograph means precisely such and such does not acknowledge that that same pictograph could have meant something else hundreds of years earlier–and they just don’t have enough evidence to be able to say for sure that the facsimiles were from later time periods than when Abraham was alive, as they assert. New evidence that changes their thinking is found often in Egypt as other archeology is uncovered and examined.

I have seen no explanation about the sword or dagger–have you in your reading?

Parker, I do not know if you have been to this thread, Mormonism…is it a Christian religion. Here is one’s post:

AngloCatholic1 AngloCatholic1 is offline
Junior Member

Join Date: June 13, 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 176
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Is Mormonism A Christian Religion?
I seriously investigated Mormonism before becoming a Catholic. I had two missionaries over at my house on a weekly basis, and this went on for a couple of months. I went to some of the Sunday services, but of course was NEVER allowed into the (Toronto) “Temple”. At first, I liked some of their answers to basic questions…but as my questions ran deeper and deeper, the answers got more and more BIZARRE.

I think what finally made me give it all up was my discovery of Joseph Smith’s false interpretation of an ancient Egyptian tablet. A picture of this tablet can be found in their book “Doctrines and Covenants”. Smith acquired this tablet in the mid-1800’s, when ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs were still unreadable. The words on the tablet were accompanied by a picture of a man lying on a table, with another man holding a knife over his body. Beside the table were stone jars with the heads of various Egyptian gods on them for lids. Joseph Smith claimed that the Holy Spirit revealed to him that the tablet described Abraham’s journey into Egypt in the Old Testament, and that the illustration showed the attempt by the Egyptians to kill Abraham. A few decades later, the Rosetta Stone was discovered and the key to understanding Egyptian heiroglyphs was finally unlocked. Later, Egyptian scholars looked at Smith’s tablet and translated it with ease. It was actually a set of instructions on how to properly mummify a corpse! Fact: Joseph Smith was a shameless LIAR.

Parker, I could tell that you are good man, you want to do good. I just hope you wake yourself up, and see the truth about what you follow…and come to the fullness of the truth.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I do not know if you have been to this thread, Mormonism…is it a Christian religion. Here is one’s post:

Parker, I could tell that you are good man, you want to do good. I just hope you wake yourself up, and see the truth about what you follow…and come to the fullness of the truth.

Pablope,

Surely you noticed that whoever posted that comment had very little knowledge of facsimile 1, had not studied the subject at all, and just needed an excuse to leave the LDS church, which is just fine–that fulfills the parable of the sower, and is totally to be expected. A person who joins the LDS church needs to be reading the Book of Mormon in their life in this modern time, to stay close to the Holy Ghost and not drift by every wind of doctrine, but if they don’t want to do that, then they are better off finding a religion they will live by and thus be able to follow their own heart. I’m fine with that.

 

[pablope]

pablope;7350191:

I don’t take that statement to mean that Abraham necessarily drew the facsimiles, but that he wrote the record that was translated into the book itself (the text).

To set the record straight, why don’t you find and post Smith’s claim about the papyrus and refute the Egyptoligists assertion that state… "Joseph Smith’s statement that the papyri were "written by [Abraham’s] own hand upon papyrus."

As per the article, The Joseph Smith Papyri have been dated to the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period, 1500 years after Abraham’s supposed lifetime…so how could you claim that Abraham wrote the record itself?

Paul …means that Paul had writings which we don’t have, since we don’t find such a description about Abraham in Genesis. Hebrews 11 shows the same thing about Enoch–that Paul knew more about Enoch than is written in Genesis.

Your conjecture again, Parker. Paul would not write anything about the OT, why would he. His revelation was directly from Jesus, and he was spreading the Gospel, not anything about Abraham or Enoch. If you closely examine Paul’s epistles, these were epistles that dealt with problems and advise to the churches he established in the name of Christ, instructions to those he left in charge (Timothy and Titus),

The Genesis account is unclear about the timing of events. However, since there was a famine that sent Abraham to Egypt, one can understand that a famine is not an overnight event,** and that Abraham must have been in Egypt for long enough **

that the famine abated by the time he left–at least a year or close to a year.

Another conjecture, Parker. You are trying to stretch the account and you have quite an imagination.Here is the verse again:

Genesis 12:17-19
17But the LORD afflicted Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18So Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife; take her, and go.”

The account indicates that Abram was dismissed by Pharaoh, with the famine not having abated. At best, Abram was in Egypt, no more than one to two months, and that is stretching it.

My point was that for the Pharaoh to have had a knowledge that Abraham was even around, and to have had an interest in his “sister”, that they had a relationship beyond just casual acquaintance. .

I don’t take that statement to mean that Abraham necessarily drew the facsimiles, but that he wrote the record that was translated into the book itself (the text).

To set the record straight, why don’t you find and post Smith’s claim about the papyrus and refute the Egyptoligists assertion that state… "Joseph Smith’s statement that the papyri were "written by [Abraham’s] own hand upon papyrus."

As per the article, The Joseph Smith Papyri have been dated to the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period, 1500 years after Abraham’s supposed lifetime…so how could you claim that Abraham wrote the record itself?

Paul …means that Paul had writings which we don’t have, since we don’t find such a description about Abraham in Genesis. Hebrews 11 shows the same thing about Enoch–that Paul knew more about Enoch than is written in Genesis.

Your conjecture again, Parker. Paul would not write anything about the OT, why would he. His revelation was directly from Jesus, and he was spreading the Gospel, not anything about Abraham or Enoch. If you closely examine Paul’s epistles, these were epistles that dealt with problems and advise to the churches he established in the name of Christ, instructions to those he left in charge (Timothy and Titus),

The Genesis account is unclear about the timing of events. However, since there was a famine that sent Abraham to Egypt, one can understand that a famine is not an overnight event,** and that Abraham must have been in Egypt for long enough **

that the famine abated by the time he left–at least a year or close to a year.

Another conjecture, Parker. You are trying to stretch the account and you have quite an imagination.Here is the verse again:

Genesis 12:17-19
17But the LORD afflicted Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18So Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife; take her, and go.”

The account indicates that Abram was dismissed by Pharaoh, with the famine not having abated. At best, Abram was in Egypt, no more than one to two months, and that is stretching it.

My point was that for the Pharaoh to have had a knowledge that Abraham was even around, and to have had an interest in his “sister”, that they had a relationship beyond just casual acquaintance. .

It is not for sure pharaoh had actual relations with Sarai, the accounts indicate from verse 15… “they praised her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house”…indicating that she was being prepared for marriage…but before this could happen, see what happens at verse 17.

We already know from the papyrus and the writings we have both cited, that the Egyptians were interested in the heavens, the creation of the universe, and the stars

Unless you can provide actual sources from Egyptian history to prove this, I would say this is conjecture again. If they were interested in such, why did they bother to build pyramids?