Explicity post: sex pre-vatican II

[AngryAtheist8]

Misogyny of various unsavory flavors has indeed deeply infiltrated the thinking of even the Church’s leaders at various times, but the joy found in living out the good news of Jesus Christ is incomparably greater. And the Church has always had strong women who take a stand for Christ and for truth: St. Mary Magdalene, St. Monica, St. Catherine of Siena (who helped end the Avignon papacy!), St. Joan of Arc (she blows sexist stereotypes right out of the water), St. Gianna Molla, etc. - not to mention a certain Mary of Nazareth who exercised considerable influence over our Lord himself.

Joan of Arc is hardly a good example of the Church honoring women.
She was executed by the Church for witchcraft.

Nor are the other female saints who were ignored or in some cases persecuted (like Joan of Arc). To put it bluntly its easy to revere a martyr or publicly make peace with an enemy once their dead.

Once their dead they no longer present any sort of challenge or threat (at least in the conventional sense), and you can make any claims you want about them without fearing that such people will challenge or contradict you for talking about them like that.

The Catholic Church can honor and revere the the Virgin Mary and all the female saints as much as possible. But if it shows disdain and disregard for living women, for wives, mothers, and daughters, then that reverence means relatively little.

 

[Bookcat]

Joan of Arc is hardly a good example of the Church honoring women.
She was executed by the Church for witchcraft.

Incorrect…she was executed by the English…the CHURCH found such a trial as invalid etc…and the Church canonized here…do not confuse the actions of some politically minded English with the Church.

Nor are the other female saints who were ignored or in some cases persecuted (like Joan of Arc). To put it bluntly its easy to revere a martyr or publicly make peace with an enemy once their dead.

that…to be blunt is just silliness……

Once their dead they no longer present any sort of challenge or threat (at least in the conventional sense), and you can make any claims you want about them without fearing that such people will challenge or contradict you for talking about them like that.

more confusion

The Catholic Church can honor and revere the the Virgin Mary and all the female saints as much as possible. But if it shows disdain and disregard for living women, for wives, mothers, and daughters, then that reverence means relatively little.

the Church holds women in HIGH regard!!! wives …mothers…daughters…she has been the cause of the recognition of the high dignity of women…

 

[AngryAtheist8]

AngryAtheist8;7182369:

Joan of Arc is hardly a good example of the Church honoring women.
She was executed by the Church for witchcraft.

Incorrect…she was executed by the English…the CHURCH found such a trial as invalid etc…and the Church canonized here…do not confuse the actions of some politically minded English with the Church.

Nor are the other female saints who were ignored or in some cases persecuted (like Joan of Arc). To put it bluntly its easy to revere a martyr or publicly make peace with an enemy once their dead.

that…to be blunt is just silliness……

Once their dead they no longer present any sort of challenge or threat (at least in the conventional sense), and you can make any claims you want about them without fearing that such people will challenge or contradict you for talking about them like that.

more confusion

The Catholic Church can honor and revere the the Virgin Mary and all the female saints as much as possible. But if it shows disdain and disregard for living women, for wives, mothers, and daughters, then that reverence means relatively little.

the Church holds women in HIGH regard!!! wives …mothers…daughters…she has been the cause of the recognition of the high dignity of women…

On the contrary, it is a tactic often used by dictators against their dead political enemies.

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat;7182484:

On the contrary, it is a tactic often used by dictators against their dead political enemies.

Ya…so.

That is not Church.

Do not confuse apples and rotten apples

 

[Bookcat]

By the way Pope Benedict XVI has been devoting his weds. audiences lately to women…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/index_en.htm

(the one on St. Elizabeth is short…cause the full text is not translated yet…go again next week to read full text…but note …she a woman was Canonized four years after her death…)

 

[Bookcat]

zenit.org/article-30632?l=english

holyseemission.org/12Oct2010.html

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070214_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

I see the one from last week is not fully up yet either…(should be soon)

 

[Bookcat]

By the way Pope Benedict XVI has been devoting his weds. audiences lately to women…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/index_en.htm

(the one on St. Elizabeth is short…cause the full text is not translated yet…go again next week to read full text…but note …she a woman was Canonized four years after her death…)

I see the one from last week is not fully up yet either…(should be soon)

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Thanks for the links, Bookcat!

Joan of Arc is hardly a good example of the Church honoring women. She was executed by the Church for witchcraft.

Bull. It was the ecclesiastical authorities in England, who are not synonymous with the authority of the universal Church. Not even they really thought she was a witch; their flimsy theological excuses were a mere excuse, a smokescreen, with which to hide the consequences of their thinly veiled, power-hungry attempt to make good on the English crown’s antiquated and imperialist claim over all France.

Joan of Arc’s trial is damning to nationalism, to militarism, to imperialism. Not to the Catholic Church. The French ecclesiastical authorities felt quite differently about Joan of Arc.

Nor are the other female saints who were ignored or in some cases persecuted (like Joan of Arc). To put it bluntly its easy to revere a martyr or publicly make peace with an enemy once their dead.

Again, you seem to have missed several of my examples, such as Catherine of Siena. Far from being persecuted, she was instrumental in ending the corrupt Avignon papacy.

The Catholic Church can honor and revere the the Virgin Mary and all the female saints as much as possible. But if it shows disdain and disregard for living women, for wives, mothers, and daughters, then that reverence means relatively little.

Quite the opposite is the case. At least today. You should take a look at some of Bookcat’s links, or read John Paul II’s “Letter to Women.”

 

[baylee]

In regards to the question about Pre-vatican II teaching, this is one of my favorite documents on Catholic sexual ethics and it was published in 1936. It is very good and goes to show that the church had a really good line on this subject prior to Vatican II or TOB stuff. Not to dimensish JP II’s Theology of the Body, but reading this document will show that the it’s implications are not as revolutionary as some of its proponents like to point out.

ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/MORMAR.txt

Thank you for posting this link. I started reading bits of it and I plan on reading it in full. Ithink this teaching is the hardest for my husband and I. Things always sound great in theory…then there’s practice. Every sexual encounter isn’t so perfect…and I continue to struggle with this. Sometimes things just happen because the perfect way just isn’t working. One struggle is deciding whether to go to confession knowing we will probably sin this way again. But if I don’t go, I don’t receive communion…and I wonder how long a person continues down that path.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for posting this link. I started reading bits of it and I plan on reading it in full. Ithink this teaching is the hardest for my husband and I. Things always sound great in theory…then there’s practice. Every sexual encounter isn’t so perfect…and I continue to struggle with this. Sometimes things just happen because the perfect way just isn’t working. One struggle is deciding whether to go to confession knowing we will probably sin this way again. But if I don’t go, I don’t receive communion…and I wonder how long a person continues down that path.

Not knowing what you are referring too I can not comment much (and some things are not for this forum…young eyes …) But…

Be cautious one is not having “scruples” here…that keep you from Communion…

Make sure you look into if what you are talking about is really sinful…or in the case of refraining from Communion…if really mortal sins?? Venial slips do not keep one from Communion…

 

[newbetx]

I think his example was to show how “demeaning” the church is to women. Since many don’t understand the basis for the differences of women and men, then this looks absurd to the outside world (and those inside that don’t or won’t try to understand.) I know it did to me at one time, but slowly, I came to understand it’s not about bias, it’s about duty and position. Not in a way that reduces a person’s dignity but in ways that we have opportunities to excel due to our differences, not our sameness.

The bias is concerning duty and position.

To put it simply, hierarchy matters.

If I am working as a low level employee for a large corporation then the CEO and I might have equal worth as human beings, but as employees of the corporation the CEO is more important. This is not discrimination or bigotry, its just statement of fact. Any accomplishments or mistakes I make as an employee will have relatively little impact on the company as a whole, but if the CEO makes a mistake it can ruin the company.

The same principal applies to any hierarchy relating to men and women.

If the man is in charge because he more closely reflects the ‘Image of God’ than women then he is more important. Putting women near the bottom of the societal hierarchy, above only children.

Whose bias? What hierarchy?

There tends to be “position” not necessarily due to equality but thirst for power. There is also position due to natural ability.

The misunderstanding about church teaching and the prevailing bias of culture can cause great pain and division.

I’m not sure what you WANT to believe. The mistaken notion of the church teaching men are “better” than women is just that. A mistaken notion. Words are warped, taken out of context and then applied to the meaning of today’s english vs original greek or aramaic definitions.

Let’s talk about motherhood in general, not ones specific mother but in general. Is the woman less because she can bear children? Don’t think so. Society today would have one believe doing something so loving and selfless is a disease that needs a cure.

Raising, feeding, nurturing, helping with homework, making help with chores, running the house, being a taxi, working too, sometimes… does that make them LESS than men? Not in my book.

Those that put women in a lesser class do not understand. And yes, some early church fathers did get some things wrong. But it’s the bias we all must overcome to understand the true meaning of being Man and Woman, that will enable us to work cooperatively with the diversity we have been given.

A bit of reading of Theology of the Body (why we are man and woman) really helped me to understand this. I don’t know what reading it would do for you, being an atheist, but, to me, it does the best job of explaining what all in the church should not only teach, but live out daily, as well.

Women are men’s equal in right and privilege. Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Enough to die for them. In otherwords, deny themselves. Most men would think a man like that to be a wimp and would chastise. That should not be the case, but cultural bias has lead to it. Hope this helps some.

Angry Athiest. It is easy to find issue with the usage of certain words or anyone of authority that might tend to have different thoughts. One must look at the whole of knowledge to understand some of these things. The Church has had millions of people studying this stuff. And it is difficult for some to understand fully. Hence, misunderstanding of what IS taught or should be taught has been experienced throughout history.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The misunderstanding about church teaching and the prevailing bias of culture can cause great pain and division.

I’m not sure what you WANT to believe. The mistaken notion of the church teaching men are “better” than women is just that. A mistaken notion. Words are warped, taken out of context and then applied to the meaning of today’s english vs original greek or aramaic definitions.

-That is a mistaken notion that has (sometimes) been taught by priests, along with laypeople and non-Catholics.

If men have more authority than women because they are more like God the Father, then the natural conclusion (and perhaps the logical one) is that we men are better.

The principal of ‘Separate But Equal’ was not truly equal for Blacks and Whites here in the United States. If one group (men) has all the power and privilege, then in a very real sense they are superior to other groups (such as women).

I am insulted by the idea that I have heard some Christians (including a few Catholics) promote that men deserve all the power in a marriage (and perhaps the church and secular society as well) and yet men and women are somehow really equal. It strikes as being nonsensical and an insult to my intelligence as well.

If I were a woman myself I would probably find this idea infuriating and scary as well (considering how many men in places like Iran and Afghanistan violently support it).

 

[newbetx]

-That is a mistaken notion that has (sometimes) been taught by priests, along with laypeople and non-Catholics. .

Yes, but that doesn’t make it “Church teaching.” Do you understand what I mean? Most of the time, the years spent in theology training works for the best, but sometimes, like with the contraception thing, the wrong message is conveyed. Priest are people too and are not infallible. Now I don’t know if it’s that they give people bad advice or if it’s just interpreted incorrectly. The truth is somewhere in between, I suspect.

I’ve brought this up before but I don’t recall getting a crisp answer…
“What exactly is ‘Church teaching’?” What qualifies it? What backs it up. There are official approvals for texts. On the surface they sometimes seem to contradict each other. Sometimes that’s from errors in translation, sometimes it’s from inferences we like to make with the language.

If men have more authority than women because they are more like God the Father, then the natural conclusion (and perhaps the logical one) is that we men are better…

This fact isn’t that men or any more or less “like the Father” than women, just what people might want to believe. We are all equal in the eyes of God. He loves us just as much as the next person. Here, the logical conclusion isn’t valid because the assumption isn’t valid.

The principal of ‘Separate But Equal’ was not truly equal for Blacks and Whites here in the United States. If one group (men) has all the power and privilege, then in a very real sense they are superior to other groups (such as women)…

Humans aren’t capable of managing “equality” very well, are they? That doesn’t mean we should not strive for it anyway.

I am insulted by the idea that I have heard some Christians (including a few Catholics) promote that men deserve all the power in a marriage (and perhaps the church and secular society as well) and yet men and women are somehow really equal. It strikes as being nonsensical and an insult to my intelligence as well…

I’m insulted to. The “oneness” we are to become as husband and wife is very difficult to achieve. However, it does not mean that we shouldn’t try. A two person team is a difficult endeavor. That also does not imply we are not capable nor excused from trying to work that way.

If I were a woman myself I would probably find this idea infuriating and scary as well (considering how many men in places like Iran and Afghanistan violently support it)

Most there are of a different religion. Very different. I won’t go into that discussion here.

However, there are many Christians that don’t live up to the term Christian. Some try, and fail (it’s not easy) but try again. Others think they’re doing a fine job and they are not. It’s (fallen) human nature.