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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Regardless of any answer I give, Ali Nuri (Baha’u’llah) is dead right? You can only say he is alive insofar as you are the keepers of his teaching which keeps it going right?
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Servant19
Guest
Baha’u’llah has a SPIRITUAL BODY (fully in accordance with St.Paul) in the Kingdom, and is a Life-Giving Spirit (fully in accordance with St.Peter) nourishing the collective body of humanity with salvific life…
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Servant19
Guest
Not at all.
The Universal House of Justice is the transubstantiation of Baha’u’llah on earth.
The Baha’i Ark on Mount Carmel, Gods Holy Mountain, is the Ark of Salvation for ever single being that has lived since 1963 when Baha’u’llah took up His Throne there with the establishment of His Universal House of Justice…
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IgnatianPhilo
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Is Joseph Smith dead?
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Servant19
Guest
I have no idea about Mormonism.
Can’t answer that question sorry…
But what’s your point?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I’m not going to continue the little game we’re having. You very well know Joseph Smith is dead and if you don’t know you can find out. When the scripture says that Moses died, does it mean that he died? When it says Jesus died does it mean that he died? When the hadith reports Muhammad died, does it mean that he’s dead? When Ali Nuri’s bones are in the ground, in a specific shrine dedicated to housing them, can we in all reasonableness say that with all certainty he is dead?
I pointed out the problem you face before. You’re idea of someone being alive and you have clarified that with your previous post is the lasting group or community they have established. The things you have said concerning your prophet the Mormons might rightly say about Joseph Smith and you would be in no able to refute them because the status of your prophets is exactly the same. Joseph Smith restored the church. Ali Nuri established the Universal house of Justice. Both have their legacies continued in the communities they have established, both are equally alive by the criteria you have.
In short, saying your “manifestation” is alive is nothing so special. I would say by the standards you judge Ali Nuri Alive, C.S Lewis and Augustine are even more alive today than they were when they were alive. In short, speaking metaphorically and spiritually sometimes is helpful, but when you can’t admit someone is dead, when you can’t describe them as having ceased living in the world, there’s a bit of a disconnect. Shouldn’t you proudly say your Prophet is dead because he called death a friend? Has he not joined his friend and is resting comfortably in death?
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Servant19
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“Ceased living in the world”
Yes, we can say that about all the Prophets including Jesus in that sense Ignatian…
This attachment to a superiority by Jesus’ physical resurrection is unBiblical
It’s plain to see in black and white.
It’s that superiority complex that has caused “even the elect” to stray from Gods path…
Thank God for free will to stray away if one chooses.
It’s convenient and attractive to attach ourselves to things which give us a sense of belonging to an elite group, even if we steer around Truth to keep is in the “elite” place we sit in.
God judges all
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IgnatianPhilo
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We’ve discussed this before and you have not carried on the discussion once we reach a deeper analysis of the text as far as I am concerned. I suppose the entire Christian tradition has been unbiblical since the start if that is the case however, I suppose we only have the over zealous apostles to blame for our current faith as well as God.“Ceased living in the world”
Yes, we can say that about all the Prophets including Jesus in that sense Ignatian…
This attachment to a superiority by Jesus’ physical resurrection is unBiblical
It’s plain to see in black and white.
It’s that superiority complex that has caused “even the elect” to stray from Gods path…
Thank God for free will to stray away if one chooses.
It’s convenient and attractive to attach ourselves to things which give us a sense of belonging to an elite group, even if we steer around Truth to keep is in the “elite” place we sit in.
God judges all
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You do realise however that your prophet’s resurrection is no different than any other religion’s resurrection right? They have all had followers who continued and it is like I said, if we judge by the numbers I suggest there would be more people who take C.S Lewis and Augustine seriously and follow in their thought than they would Ali Nuri’s. So could we not say that they outshine your prophet in their resurrection?
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Servant19
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Please provide a deeper analysis of the text. Happy to learn if it has coherence and not contradiction.
…and, no, about CS Lewis and Augustine. Not even in the same galaxy as Baha’u’llah. Like a gnat compared to a Royal Falcon.
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JimmyDFG
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Even though the Bible teaches us that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body in which He died and that His resurrected body was a glorified body, people/bahai still resist accepting this truth?
John2:19-22
Jesus answered, ‘Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’
The Jews replied, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this Temple: are you going to raise it up again in three days?’
But he was speaking of the Temple that was his body,
and when Jesus rose from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and what he had said.
John 20:19-20
In the evening of that same day, the first day of the week, the doors were closed in the room where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews. Jesus came and stood among them. He said to them, ‘Peace be with you,’
and, after saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples were filled with joy at seeing the Lord,
Luke24:38-40
But he said, ‘Why are you so agitated, and why are these doubts stirring in your hearts?
See by my hands and my feet that it is I myself. Touch me and see for yourselves; a ghost has no flesh and bones as you can see I have.’
And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet.
It seems clear that Jesus’ physical resurrection is a reality…and you say its “unbiblical”? Would you like to retract your statement? Because “It’s plain to see in black and white.”
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IgnatianPhilo
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Calling Saint Augustine a gnat is like calling Shakespeare an amateur. Augustine has influenced the entire western tradition with his writings and life. His influence is felt at all periods subsequent to him in western intellectual history and bares itself out practically in the western church as well. You don’t have to like him or consider that good, but he was no gnat. He is a giant which Ali Nuri can’t match. People know Augustine’s confessions and the City of God, People do not know Ali Nuri’s letters to Kings, Queens and Popes.
C.S Lewis I brought up as a modern example and it seems to me he has had more influence on Christianity than Ali Nuri ever had. A principled traditionalist Christian he argued against the spirit of his age things like Eugenics and even things in the future like women ministers. His fantasy writings have reached and inspired many, even leading those who read them to Jesus. There are few if any Christians who do not recognise his contribution to Christianity in keeping it Christianity, that is not giving into a liberalism which relativised the gospel and tried to universalise it. Is he a gnat? More people know and are inspired by C.S Lewis than they are by Ali Nuri and the entire Bahai tradition. If he’s a nat, Ali Nuri is non existent.
But in disputing this premise I think you reveal something important, that my original point was correct. The status of your prophet’s resurrection is dependant on the influence he has had after his death. I think the difference between Bahai and Christianity is that even if all the Christians were to die, Christ would still be true and he would demonstrate being true by returning and condemning the world. If all the Bahai were to dissapear, well nothing would happen.
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worldcitizen
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Just like to add my bit for our dear Catholic friends so they know we are basically on the same page and what we agree on and unites us is far more important than controversial issues.
I don’t care if our Catholic friends never become Baha’is but I do care very much that they always know we are at one with them and on their side not against them. Of course we are bound to differ in understanding of the Gospels but below is what we Baha’is uphold and defend.
"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended…
I don’t care if our Catholic friends never become Baha’is but I do care very much that they always know we are at one with them and on their side not against them. Of course we are bound to differ in understanding of the Gospels but below is what we Baha’is uphold and defend.
"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended…
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Servant19
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Amen dear brother.
Where we are not with them is during times where a sense of superiority, patronisation and paternalism has contributed towards the oppression of many populations over the years and the contributions this has made to the sad predicaments currently faced by indigenous populations in many parts of the world…
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IgnatianPhilo
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The problem with that statement is that it;s not really Christianity you unconditionally acknowledge, it’s what you think true Christianity was with Jesus that you unconditionally acknowledge. When it says the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus it does not have in mind the 2000 year old Christian reflection of that mystery. Also how can you uphold the immaculate conception of the virgin Mary when you deny original sin even existing? You cannot unless you redefine differently from the Roman Catholic position. In the end you contradict Christianity and condemn it.
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JimmyDFG
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I agree!!
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worldcitizen
Guest
Hi Jimmy.
This is an example of what I think really happened.
"Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up.(Abdul-Baha)
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Servant19
Guest
So what will we use these physical hands for Jimmy?
Is this why in Luke it is said:
And the Lord said: ‘I prepare for you as my Father hath prepared for me a kingdom, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom’ (Luke 22: 29)
Will we use these physical hands so we can eat at the table of the Kingdom?
Will there be physical food?
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Servant19
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There are a lot of “what ifs” Ignatius.
What if the world got blown up by an asteroid.
If the world got blown up by an asteroid, Baha’u’llah will rebuild it again by just uttering the letters B and E. Blah blah blah
It’s not a competition for superiority!!!
That is a condition of Satan…
I’m waiting for the deeper theology…
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IgnatianPhilo
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That discussion on the resurrection can happen later, when you are not trying to get away from the implication of what has been said by the Bahai previously. It seems sound to me and I have not heard an adequate rebuff to what I have said concerning Bahai conceptions of resurrection, that if resurrection is to be judged as the followers keeping to the original teacher’s position and propagating it, that Joseph Smith, C.S Lewis and Augustine have a higher status of resurrection than your Prophet does now. That’s simply the truth of the matter and for you to insist your prophet is alive in the spirit is no special than Mormons insisting Joseph Smith is alive (though they recognise he died Joseph Smith must be acknowledged as alive to the Bahai since this is how you determine your own Prophet alive).
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jeffrey_erwin
Guest
“Enoch walked with God. Then he vanished because God took him.” Genesis 4:24
Christians and Jews believe as a matter of faith that the bones of Enoch are not to be found anywhere on the earth: in no ossuary, grave, or even crematorium. Perhaps the Baha’i Faith has a different take on this story. But no actual proof exits as to what really happened.
“Now as they walked on, talking as they went, a chariot of fire appeared and horses of fire, coming between the two of them; and Elijah went up to heaven in the whirlwind.” 2 Kings 2:11
Once again the two mentioned Abrahamic faiths would not expect to find the bones of Elijah anywhere on the earth. And again no actual proof exists to support that idea. It is a matter of faith.
“You may have your guard,” said Pilate to them . . .So they went and made the sepulcher secure, putting seals on the stone and mounting a guard.
…the Angel of the Lord, descending from Heaven, came and rolled away the stone and sat on it. …the guards were like dead men. But the Angel spoke; and he said to the women, “…He [Jesus] is not here, for He has risen,as He said He would. . . .” Matthew 27/28
In the Holy Scripture are many instances of the dead being brought back to life. Does that mean that here Jesus’s body was miraculously revived and that He unwrapped Himself from His burial linen and then walked out of the tomb? That idea would not be consistent with the above narration where the guard was still in place and the women had arrived at the very time that the tomb was opened. Therefore we have the Christian idea that our Lord’s body vanished from that tomb, much as Enoch vanished or as Elijah vanished.
I noted that for Enoch’s and Elijah’s events that we had no proof; belief that these things happened is a matter of faith.
Has anyone ever put a bandaid on a cut? (They make these items “non-stick” nowadays so that it doesn’t hurt so much when you have to remove them .) For any kind of untreated cloth used as a dressing, you can expect some tearing and difficulty in removing it because of the coagulated blood that has become stuck to it.
But on a close examination of Jesus’s burial linen, no disturbance whatsoever of the bloodstained linen fibers has ever been found. My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.
Christians and Jews believe as a matter of faith that the bones of Enoch are not to be found anywhere on the earth: in no ossuary, grave, or even crematorium. Perhaps the Baha’i Faith has a different take on this story. But no actual proof exits as to what really happened.
“Now as they walked on, talking as they went, a chariot of fire appeared and horses of fire, coming between the two of them; and Elijah went up to heaven in the whirlwind.” 2 Kings 2:11
Once again the two mentioned Abrahamic faiths would not expect to find the bones of Elijah anywhere on the earth. And again no actual proof exists to support that idea. It is a matter of faith.
“You may have your guard,” said Pilate to them . . .So they went and made the sepulcher secure, putting seals on the stone and mounting a guard.
…the Angel of the Lord, descending from Heaven, came and rolled away the stone and sat on it. …the guards were like dead men. But the Angel spoke; and he said to the women, “…He [Jesus] is not here, for He has risen,as He said He would. . . .” Matthew 27/28
In the Holy Scripture are many instances of the dead being brought back to life. Does that mean that here Jesus’s body was miraculously revived and that He unwrapped Himself from His burial linen and then walked out of the tomb? That idea would not be consistent with the above narration where the guard was still in place and the women had arrived at the very time that the tomb was opened. Therefore we have the Christian idea that our Lord’s body vanished from that tomb, much as Enoch vanished or as Elijah vanished.
I noted that for Enoch’s and Elijah’s events that we had no proof; belief that these things happened is a matter of faith.
Has anyone ever put a bandaid on a cut? (They make these items “non-stick” nowadays so that it doesn’t hurt so much when you have to remove them .) For any kind of untreated cloth used as a dressing, you can expect some tearing and difficulty in removing it because of the coagulated blood that has become stuck to it.
But on a close examination of Jesus’s burial linen, no disturbance whatsoever of the bloodstained linen fibers has ever been found. My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.
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