Exploring Bahaism

[worldcitizen]

That discussion on the resurrection can happen later, when you are not trying to get away from the implication of what has been said by the Bahai previously. It seems sound to me and I have not heard an adequate rebuff to what I have said concerning Bahai conceptions of resurrection, that if resurrection is to be judged as the followers keeping to the original teacher’s position and propagating it, that Joseph Smith, C.S Lewis and Augustine have a higher status of resurrection than your Prophet does now. That’s simply the truth of the matter and for you to insist your prophet is alive in the spirit is no special than Mormons insisting Joseph Smith is alive (though they recognise he died Joseph Smith must be acknowledged as alive to the Bahai since this is how you determine your own Prophet alive).

Have you read this?

"Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up.(Abdul-Baha)

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Have you read this?

"Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up.(Abdul-Baha)

Yes, I have, and that is one of many reasons why I believe that the idea that Abdul-Baha was given Divine Certitude is not correct. Baha’u’llah specifically reserved that Certitude for himself alone as well as stating that the Gospels were correct as they stood.

 

[Servant19]

“Enoch walked with God. Then he vanished because God took him.” Genesis 4:24
Christians and Jews believe as a matter of faith that the bones of Enoch are not to be found anywhere on the earth: in no ossuary, grave, or even crematorium. Perhaps the Baha’i Faith has a different take on this story. But no actual proof exits as to what really happened.

“Now as they walked on, talking as they went, a chariot of fire appeared and horses of fire, coming between the two of them; and Elijah went up to heaven in the whirlwind.” 2 Kings 2:11
Once again the two mentioned Abrahamic faiths would not expect to find the bones of Elijah anywhere on the earth. And again no actual proof exists to support that idea. It is a matter of faith.

“You may have your guard,” said Pilate to them . . .So they went and made the sepulcher secure, putting seals on the stone and mounting a guard.
…the Angel of the Lord, descending from Heaven, came and rolled away the stone and sat on it. …the guards were like dead men. But the Angel spoke; and he said to the women, “…He [Jesus] is not here, for He has risen,as He said He would. . . .” Matthew 27/28

In the Holy Scripture are many instances of the dead being brought back to life. Does that mean that here Jesus’s body was miraculously revived and that He unwrapped Himself from His burial linen and then walked out of the tomb? That idea would not be consistent with the above narration where the guard was still in place and the women had arrived at the very time that the tomb was opened. Therefore we have the Christian idea that our Lord’s body vanished from that tomb, much as Enoch vanished or as Elijah vanished.
I noted that for Enoch’s and Elijah’s events that we had no proof; belief that these things happened is a matter of faith.

Has anyone ever put a bandaid on a cut? (They make these items “non-stick” nowadays so that it doesn’t hurt so much when you have to remove them .) For any kind of untreated cloth used as a dressing, you can expect some tearing and difficulty in removing it because of the coagulated blood that has become stuck to it.
But on a close examination of Jesus’s burial linen, no disturbance whatsoever of the bloodstained linen fibers has ever been found. My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.

Thankyou Jeffrey.

What is the use of a physical body, with bones, flesh, hands and feet in heaven?

Got doesn’t create a body for no purpose. What is the purpose of this physical body in heaven?

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[jeffrey_erwin]

Thankyou Jeffrey.

What is the use of a physical body, with bones, flesh, hands and feet in heaven?

Got doesn’t create a body for no purpose. What is the purpose of this physical body in heaven?
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As usual, Servant, you ask questions because you really have no answer. I advise other posters here that they should refrain from feeding the troll. I should probably take that advise myself.

 

[Servant19]

As usual, Servant, you ask questions because you really have no answer. I advise other posters here that they should refrain from feeding the troll. I should probably take that advise myself.

That is saddening that my questioning has been responded to me being called a troll.



Seems like I am unwelcome in this forum and my sincere questions are frowned upon…

.

 

[TonyBS]

As usual, Servant, you ask questions because you really have no answer. I advise other posters here that they should refrain from feeding the troll. I should probably take that advise myself.

The question is obviously a Logical Question Jeffery. I would ask the question as well, but Servant has asked it.

Given what Christ says about the Flesh Body, that is worth not a thing. it is a very logical question to ask.

Of course there is really no good answer that will balance with science in the past, so what comes back it usually given with distractions. science is making new inroads to the possibility of a Spirit connection to the Human.

I know you are more open to Truth than those distractions. I would hope we can all discuss without adding distractions from the subject/s.

IMHO God has Given us One Life on this planet in a Physical Body so we can learn what it is to be Spiritual. The body is of no use when it dies upon this earth. It will disintegrate back into elements that will again continue the circle of life.

The dream world is given to us for a reason, it is somewhat of a window into the Worlds to come, how it is all done without the use of a Physical body that is deep in sleep upon a bed in the Material World.

Regards Tony

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

That is saddening that my questioning has been responded to me being called a troll.
Seems like I am unwelcome in this forum and my sincere questions are frowned upon…
.

My apologies. Perhaps that was harsh. What I really meant that I find your questions to be silly and condescending, and hardly sincere. You are talking to me as if I were five years old. You imply that I think that Enoch’s body went up as flesh and bone to Heaven. But what scripture says is that he vanished.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel that you are here to engage in an honest dialogue.

 

[worldcitizen]

Yes, I have, and that is one of many reasons why I believe that the idea that Abdul-Baha was given Divine Certitude is not correct. Baha’u’llah specifically reserved that Certitude for himself alone as well as stating that the Gospels were correct as they stood.

Baha’u’llah didn’t support the interpretation of the Gospels current amongst Christians.

He explained the meaning of the Gospels in the Book of Certitude and said many of them were symbolical.

He also gave Abdul-Baha the power of Interpreting His Words so anything even the Book of Certitude Abdul-Baha was well within His jurisdiction to explain and interpret further and Mount Tabor is in line with the Book of Certitude.

Any I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[TonyBS]

My apologies. Perhaps that was harsh. What I really meant that I find your questions to be silly and condescending, and hardly sincere. You are talking to me as if I were five years old. You imply that I think that Enoch’s body went up as flesh and bone to Heaven. But what scripture says is that he vanished.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel that you are here to engage in an honest dialogue.

It is Honest Jeffery, it purpose is to make us really think about a material body returning exactly as it was 2000 years ago. This is a critical matter in the Oneness of God. It is not a subject to be taken lightly.

The responses shows it is a subject not taken lightly would you not say?

If you get a chance and can find a copy on the net to read, give “God Loves Laughter” by William Sears a go, I enjoy this book immensely

databaseebook.com/id/p1102144402/.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

My apologies. Perhaps that was harsh. What I really meant that I find your questions to be silly and condescending, and hardly sincere. You are talking to me as if I were five years old. You imply that I think that Enoch’s body went up as flesh and bone to Heaven. But what scripture says is that he vanished.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel that you are here to engage in an honest dialogue.

Thankyou for the apology Jeffrey.

I would ask you therefore, what are you implying when you say:

“My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.”

Are you saying that Jesus’ physical body went into heaven?

.

 

[TonyBS]

Thankyou for the apology Jeffrey.

I would ask you therefore, what are you implying when you say:

“My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.”

Are you saying that Jesus’ physical body went into heaven?

.

Jeffery has great confidence in the Shroud of Turin

Regards Tony

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Baha’u’llah didn’t support the interpretation of the Gospels current amongst Christians.

He explained the meaning of the Gospels in the Book of Certitude and said many of them were symbolical.

He also gave Abdul-Baha the power of Interpreting His Words so anything even the Book of Certitude Abdul-Baha was well within His jurisdiction to explain and interpret further and Mount Tabor is in line with the Book of Certitude.

Any I enjoy reading your posts.

OK. Nonetheless I don’t feel that the privilege of interpretation includes the certitude to make a new pronouncement. To the best of my knowledge Baha’u’llah never denied that the Resurrection of Jesus did not happen the way that Christians believe that it happened.
I don’t think that the Baha’i Faith accepts the idea that Jesus’s body disappeared from His tomb. And I think the reason that Baha’is don’t believe that is because of what Abdul-Baha wrote about the Resurrection.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Thankyou for the apology Jeffrey.

I would ask you therefore, what are you implying when you say:

“My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.”

Are you saying that Jesus’ physical body went into heaven?
.

Yet again we receive the same kind of condescending question from you, Servant.
I’ve told you quite plainly and directly what I believe and why. Our Lord’s body disappeared from His tomb. I think that you should do us the same favor. Instead of insulting our intelligences, just state what you believe and why. Then we can have an honest dialogue. I’m sorry, but I just don’t have respect for your present manner of discussion.

 

[TonyBS]

OK. Nonetheless I don’t feel that the privilege of interpretation includes the certitude to make a new pronouncement. To the best of my knowledge Baha’u’llah never denied that the Resurrection of Jesus did not happen the way that Christians believe that it happened.
I don’t think that the Baha’i Faith accepts the idea that Jesus’s body disappeared from His tomb. And I think the reason that Baha’is don’t believe that is because of what Abdul-Baha wrote about the Resurrection.

Jeffery I believe 100% Jesus body disappeared from the Tomb, but it was eventually buried somewhere.

This is exactly what happened to the Bab after His body disappeared after 3 days as well.

The only different is the Babs body was successfully after much effort over 70 years transported to its Burial place.

Who knows what happened 200 years ago to Jesus physical Body. This is another way to look at it. Of course no one is compelled to think that way

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Yet again we receive the same kind of condescending question from you, Servant.
I’ve told you quite plainly and directly what I believe and why. Our Lord’s body disappeared from His tomb. I think that you should do us the same favor. Instead of insulting our intelligences, just state what you believe and why. Then we can have an honest dialogue. I’m sorry, but I just don’t have respect for your present manner of discussion.

Ok, my apologies if you feel I am condescending towards you. I am simply trying to ascertain EXACTLY what your beliefs are Jeffrey. You are not like the other Catholics here, you have a little more open-ness it seems. Does that make sense? Anyway, I am trying to be sincere…

The reason I ask is because the use of hands and feet and anything fleshy is a forbidden teaching according to St. Thomas (from Contra Gentiles)

"Nor again is it possible for us with our bodily face to see God, since the bodily sense of sight, implanted in our face, can be only of bodily things. Thus then shalt we see God face to face, in that we shall have an immediate vision of Him, as of a man whom we see face to face. By this vision we are singularly assimilated to God, and are partakers in His happiness: for this is His happiness, that He essentially understands His own substance. Hence it is said: ‘When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is’ (i John iii, 2). And the Lord said: ‘I prepare for you as my Father hath prepared for me a kingdom, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom’ (Luke xxii, 29). This cannot be understood of bodily meat and drink, but of that food which is taken at the table of Wisdom, whereof it is said by Wisdom: Eat ye my bread and drink the wine that I have mingled for you (Prov. ix, 5). They therefore eat and drink at the table of God, who enjoy the same happiness wherewith God is happy, seeing Him in the way which He sees Himself… "

What is your understanding of this passage Jeffrey?

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[jeffrey_erwin]

Jeffery I believe 100% Jesus body disappeared from the Tomb, but it was eventually buried somewhere.

This is exactly what happened to the Bab after His body disappeared after 3 days as well.

The only different is the Babs body was successfully after much effort over 70 years transported to its Burial place.

Who knows what happened 200 years ago to Jesus physical Body. This is another way to look at it. Of course no one is compelled to think that way
Regards Tony

Thanks for the honest answer, Tony. By “disappeared” i mean vanished into another dimension, and never buried. Furthermore, I believe that the physical evidence of that vanishing is there for all who are willing to take a look at it. Try the band-aid test yourself, if you don’t believe me. Cloth cannot be removed from day old a bloodied corpse without the fibers of that cloth being pulled apart. Baha’is believe in scientific evidence. We have seen it, we see it now.

 

[TonyBS]

Thanks for the honest answer, Tony. By “disappeared” i mean vanished into another dimension, and never buried. Furthermore, I believe that the physical evidence of that vanishing is there for all who are willing to take a look at it. Try the band-aid test yourself, if you don’t believe me. Cloth cannot be removed from day old a bloodied corpse without the fibers of that cloth being pulled apart. Baha’is believe in scientific evidence. We have seen it, we see it now.

Yes Jeffery I know you Faith in this aspect, I will not challenge it but to give you the alternatives as you have given to me

Life is full of Mysteries because we are in Reality but a Spirit, this world being but a reflection of Gods Word.

Take away B & E we still have God, we still have the Holy Spirit, we Still have Christ and we still have it all yet to happen

Regards Tony

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Ok, my apologies if you feel I am condescending towards you. I am simply trying to ascertain EXACTLY what your beliefs are Jeffrey. You are not like the other Catholics here, you have a little more open-ness it seems. Does that make sense? Anyway, I am trying to be sincere…

The reason I ask is because the use of hands and feet and anything fleshy is a forbidden teaching according to St. Thomas (from Contra Gentiles)
What is your understanding of this passage Jeffrey?
.

Once again, a silly, condescending question.
I have told you “exactly” what my belief is: that the body of Jesus vanished from inside His burial linen and that we now have scientific evidence that this actually happened.

 

[Servant19]

Once again, a silly, condescending question.
I have told you “exactly” what my belief is: that the body of Jesus vanished from inside His burial linen and that we now have scientific evidence that this actually happened.

Jeffrey, I’m asking you where is His physical body now?

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[jeffrey_erwin]

Jeffrey, I’m asking you where is His physical body now?
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Tony was kind enough to tell me what he believed in regards to our present discussion, and I respect that. I’ve said it before, and I guess I have to say it again, Servant. I don’t respect your method of dialogue. I find your questions silly and condescending. I’ve told you plainly and honestly what I believe. I only ask that you do the same.
I respect your opinion, even if it happens to be different from my own.