Exploring Bahaism

[jeffrey_erwin]

I would ask you therefore, what are you implying when you say:

“My friends, the idea that you will not ever find the bones of Jesus anywhere on or in the earth is not just a matter of faith anymore, it is a fact. His Sacred Body disappeared from inside of His burial linen.”
.

The Shroud of Turin is an artifact that has been subjected to intense scientific examination as well as a thorough historical research. Despite the astounding results of these investigations, the Shroud still remains poorly understood by most people. And this is understandable. After all, the Shroud suddenly appeared in about 1357, not in some great cathedral, but in a very humble church. The family that was putting on the exhibition would not say where it had come from. The local bishop condemned it as a painting.
Then in 1988 three reputable laboratories carbon dated valid samples of the Shroud to between 1260 and 1390 A.D.
And that is why people, even Catholic people, don’t want to bother with it.

But there are reasons to look further into the matter. The 1978 scientific investigation brought eight tons of equipment to Turin and spent 120 hours analysing the cloth, its bloodstains, its image, and even its dirt. “Somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 scientific man-hours have been spent on it, with the best analytical tools available.”* But the STURP team was unable to answer the question of how the image was put onto the linen cloth. They did find that the blood stains were actual human blood and that the imprint of these stains preceded the formation of the image.

If someone could show that the Shroud had a history that went back to the 1st century, then the only thing left to do would be to decide which explanation for the spurious C-14 dating was the most likely. That “someone” was Professor Ian Wilson, author of :
THE SHROUD (the 2000 year old mystery solved), 2010

The selection of the most likely explanation for the out-of-place C-14 dating was made by Attorney Mark Antonacci, author of:
TEST THE SHROUD (at the atomic and molecular levels), 2015

• Dr. John Heller, author of:
  REPORT ON THE SHROUD of TURIN (the story of 40 American scientists who, using modern instrumentation, tackled the problem of how the image was formed–and the remarkable conclusions to which they came.) 1983

 

[Servant19]

Servant, I’m talking about the resurrection of the body is an essential Christian doctrine. Compared to your comment that you said Jesus’ resurrection is un-Biblical

Hi Jimmy

I never said the Tesurrection was unBiblical…please, let us be gentle in our approach and not defame each other’s words.

The point I make is that the glorified body is not a physical body. The distinction is clearly made by St Paul. I cannot understand the insistence. It may well have flesh and blood but it’s not physical flesh and blood. It is incorruptible, non-physical flesh and blood.

As St.Thomas asserts:
"One must, therefore, understand the Apostle’s saying “Flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50)—in this way: that the corruption of flesh and blood will be taken away in the state of the resurrection, while the substance of flesh and blood nevertheless persists. Hence, he adds: “neither shall corruption possess incorruption.”

The body has become “spiritualised”…physical flesh and blood are not inheritors of the Kingdom, only spiritualised, incorruptible flesh and blood

.

 

[Servant19]

The Shroud of Turin is an artifact that has been subjected to intense scientific examination as well as a thorough historical research. Despite the astounding results of these investigations, the Shroud still remains poorly understood by most people. And this is understandable. After all, the Shroud suddenly appeared in about 1357, not in some great cathedral, but in a very humble church. The family that was putting on the exhibition would not say where it had come from. The local bishop condemned it as a painting.
Then in 1988 three reputable laboratories carbon dated valid samples of the Shroud to between 1260 and 1390 A.D.
And that is why people, even Catholic people, don’t want to bother with it.

But there are reasons to look further into the matter. The 1978 scientific investigation brought eight tons of equipment to Turin and spent 120 hours analysing the cloth, its bloodstains, its image, and even its dirt. “Somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 scientific man-hours have been spent on it, with the best analytical tools available.”* But the STURP team was unable to answer the question of how the image was put onto the linen cloth. They did find that the blood stains were actual human blood and that the imprint of these stains preceded the formation of the image.

If someone could show that the Shroud had a history that went back to the 1st century, then the only thing left to do would be to decide which explanation for the spurious C-14 dating was the most likely. That “someone” was Professor Ian Wilson, author of :
THE SHROUD (the 2000 year old mystery solved), 2010

The selection of the most likely explanation for the out-of-place C-14 dating was made by Attorney Mark Antonacci, author of:
TEST THE SHROUD (at the atomic and molecular levels), 2015

• Dr. John Heller, author of:
  REPORT ON THE SHROUD of TURIN (the story of 40 American scientists who, using modern instrumentation, tackled the problem of how the image was formed–and the remarkable conclusions to which they came.) 1983

Thank you Jeffrey

.

 

[Techno2000]

The body has become “spiritualised”…physical flesh and blood are not inheritors of the Kingdom, only spiritualised, incorruptible flesh and blood

.

So get to the point Servant19 in what form did Jesus rise from the dead ?

 

[Vouthon]

Hi Jimmy

I never said the Tesurrection was unBiblical…please, let us be gentle in our approach and not defame each other’s words.

The point I make is that the glorified body is not a physical body. The distinction is clearly made by St Paul. I cannot understand the insistence. It may well have flesh and blood but it’s not physical flesh and blood. It is incorruptible, non-physical flesh and blood.

As St.Thomas asserts:
"One must, therefore, understand the Apostle’s saying “Flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50)—in this way: that the corruption of flesh and blood will be taken away in the state of the resurrection, while the substance of flesh and blood nevertheless persists. Hence, he adds: “neither shall corruption possess incorruption.”

The body has become “spiritualised”…physical flesh and blood are not inheritors of the Kingdom, only spiritualised, incorruptible flesh and blood

.

Servant, St. Thomas says in the quotation you provide that: *“the **substance *of flesh and blood nevertheless persists” - the substance being its essential, corporeal reality.

 

[TonyBS]

So get to the point Servant19 in what form did Jesus rise from the dead ?

The answer to that question would be a broken record answer. Think its time to switch off the player with that one.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

The answer to that question would be a broken record answer. Think its time to switch off the player with that one.

Regards Tony

Are you going to let Servant answers or what ?

 

[worldcitizen]

“what I think really happened” is not a sound rebuttal

No rebuttal intended it was just a different perspective but it cannot be proven at this point.

 

[Servant19]

Servant, St. Thomas says in the quotation you provide that: *“the **substance ***of flesh and blood nevertheless persists” - the substance being its essential, corporeal reality.

What therefore is a “spiritual body” as mentioned by St. Paul if it is still physical?
There seems to be nothing spiritual there at all…

I’m sorry to keep asking but to be honest there is nothing uncomplicated about this…

 

[JimmyDFG]

There are Pilgrims notes (not authentic writings) that describe what we may be going to face, it is more of the vision that you are thinking about;

'…the cities are doomed - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. They must flee from the United States, because America will become the storm center of the future…"

“…It is positively dangerous to live in Cities. The cities are doomed. They will go up in smoke. They will evaporate. People are flocking to churches through fear. Americans must have a totally new way of life, become a new race of men wholly devoted souls, devoted to God and His ways. They must get to a simpler way of life. The standards of America must be lowered - have fewer luxuries. It would be better for the Americans to go back to the old ways, live a more easy life and stop tearing around to make money…”

Regards Tony

What about the righteous people if this was to happen? But I’ve heard this story before… The Deluge

 

[JimmyDFG]

No rebuttal intended it was just a different perspective but it cannot be proven at this point.

If it can’t be proven then its it annulled

 

[Servant19]

Hi Joey,

Bahaullah speaks of paradise. The all highest paradise? Maids of Heaven?

I had a dream once I met the Maids of Heaven when I died. After I died I experienced the joy of a nuclear explosion. A nuclear explosion of joy. Then I became aware I had fulfilled my ‘mission’? And I shouted YES triumphantly. Then I tried waving my hands to try and move but a ‘presence’ sent me the thought to just ‘think’ and I would be there. So I though Haifa, Israel and I was there instantly. Then I was beckoned by the Maids of Heaven who were at a fountain and told I had to be cleansed of earthly defilements after which they pointed to a pathway and said that Baha’u’llah was awaiting me. I really thought I had died and so was unhappy that I had to return. I was so sure it was real. This is the first I’ve I’ve ever shared this with anyone so publicly.

“Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship.”

With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. (Baha’u’llah)

Just managed to read the bits I missed from the thread David,

What a monumental portion of grace you just received there brother.

Remarkable. Put tingles down my spine
Thanks so much for sharing!

.

 

[Servant19]

If it can’t be proven then its it annulled

I can think of a lot of things like that Jimmy

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Hi Jimmy

I never said the Tesurrection was unBiblical…please, let us be gentle in our approach and not defame each other’s words.

The point I make is that the glorified body is not a physical body. The distinction is clearly made by St Paul. I cannot understand the insistence. It may well have flesh and blood but it’s not physical flesh and blood. It is incorruptible, non-physical flesh and blood.

As St.Thomas asserts:
"One must, therefore, understand the Apostle’s saying “Flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50)—in this way: that the corruption of flesh and blood will be taken away in the state of the resurrection, while the substance of flesh and blood nevertheless persists. Hence, he adds: “neither shall corruption possess incorruption.”

The body has become “spiritualised”…physical flesh and blood are not inheritors of the Kingdom, only spiritualised, incorruptible flesh and blood

.

My apologies
You said “This attachment to a superiority by Jesus’ physical resurrection is unBiblical
It’s plain to see in black and white.”

 

[JimmyDFG]

I can think of a lot of things like that Jimmy

.

Such as??

 

[Servant19]

My apologies
You said “This attachment to a superiority by Jesus’ physical resurrection is unBiblical
It’s plain to see in black and white.”

Yes, as I explained, it is not a physical resurrection.

It is explained by the fact that St. Paul says there is ALSO a spiritual body (as opposed to a physical body)

Can you explain what a “spiritual body” is please Jimmy? And why is it a spiritual body?

.

 

[Servant19]

Such as??

Such as a “physical resurrection”

Anything physical is discoverable by science. I await scientific confirmation of where Jesus is hiding in a physical place. It makes no sense Jimmy.

Heaven is a spiritual realm, where no physical laws exist, yet we have a physical body there with flesh and blood that is made of the “same substance as our own flesh and blood now” as St. Thomas states. (kindly pointed out by Vouthon above)

Its contradiction after contradiction, and I mean no disrespect but I cannot see any semblance of coherence at all

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Yes, as I explained, it is not a physical resurrection.

It is explained by the fact that St. Paul says there is ALSO a spiritual body (as opposed to a physical body)

Can you explain what a “spiritual body” is please Jimmy? And why is it a spiritual body?

.

Do you not believe in a soul?

 

[JimmyDFG]

Such as a “physical resurrection”

Anything physical is discoverable by science. I await scientific confirmation of where Jesus is hiding in a physical place. It makes no sense Jimmy.

Heaven is a spiritual realm, where no physical laws exist, yet we have a physical body there with flesh and blood that is made of the “same substance as our own flesh and blood now” as St. Thomas states. (kindly pointed out by Vouthon above)

Its contradiction after contradiction, and I mean no disrespect but I cannot see any semblance of coherence at all

.

If you have to wait for scientific confirmation then you’re weak in faith. In the words of Paul, “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins” (1 Cor 15:17).

 

[JimmyDFG]

Whats the name of this tread anyways?