Exploring Bahaism

[worldcitizen]

There are other sources, have to track them down - hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ABSTRACT-Baha’u’llah%20Bible.htm

In these Bibles the “Gate” is written as the Bab and the “Glory of the Lord”, or “The Glory of God” is written as Baha’u’llah

It was during the period of his decade or so exile in Iraq (1853-1863; the Iraq or Baghdad period') that Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i religion, began to cite Islamo-biblical then canonical biblical texts in a sometimes paraphrased Arabic or Persian version. During this period he was propagating the religion established by Sayyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab (1819-1850) which was suffering persecution and decline after the execution of its Persian founder in 1850 CE. While the Bab drew on Isra’iliyyat or Islamo-biblical and related qisas al-anbiya’ (Stories of the Prophets) materials, he seldom, if at all, quoted the canonical Bible. Baha’u’llah not only quoted the New Testament in his Arabic Jawahir al-asrar (The Gems [Essence] of the Mysteries', c.1861 CE) and the closely related, slightly later, Kitab-i Iqan (The Book of Certitude’, c. 1862 CE), he also strongly argued against the developed Islamic notion of the scriptural tahrif (“corruption”, “falsification”…) of the Bible or New Testament. This in the context of underlining the non-literal fulfillment of Biblical predictions surrounding the person and mission of the Prophet Muhammad (d. 632 CE) as well as those predictive of the messianic status of the Bab and the veracity of his new Babi religion. When understood spiritually, it was argued, biblical texts contain deep mysteries. New Testament predictions of Jesus recorded in the Gospels can be seen to have been fulfilled.

Cornelius Van Dyck (1819-1895)

The biblical proof texts cited in the two above-mentioned, major apologetic writings (istidlaliyya) of Baha’u’llah during the late 1860s are largely in accordance with Christian printed Arabic New Testament texts dating to the 17th century, most notably the Paris and London Polyglot Bibles and related Biblical texts printed during the 18th and 19th centuries. During the later decades of his mission prior to his ascension in Acre (Ottoman Palestine) in 1892 CE., Baha’u’llah continued to quote and comment upon both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament texts again largely in accordance with later Protestant translations, most notably those of the American Protestant missionaries Eli Smith (1801-1857) and Cornelius van Dyck (1819-1895), whose Arabic Bible version began to appear in print in Beirut from the mid. 1860s. Baha’u’llah and `Abdu’l-Baha often cited this Arabic translation as well other Arabic and Persian Bible translations several of which remain in print or widely circulated throughout the Middle East today.

While the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is hardly cited by Baha’u’llah before the Acre period (1868-1892 CE), there are hundreds, if not thousands of his scriptural alwah (Tablets) which cite the Hebrew Bible and/or the Christian New Testament during the last twenty-four years of his lifetime within the Ottoman dominions. A few biblically informed Tablets of Baha’u’llah dating from the late 1860s or subsequent decades have been translated into English and become well-known during the late 19th - early 20th centuries; including the Lawh-i Pap (Tablet to the Pope, c.1869) and Lawh-i Aqdas (Most Holy Tablet, mid 1870s?). Others such as the Lawh-i Hartik (Tablet to the Templar leader Hardegg, early 1872) remain little known. Many others await translation and publication.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony

I downloaded the Eli Smith Bible and found the Isaiah reference to ‘Baha’ though I had to squint a few hundred times to make sure the Arabic looked exactly the same as on the facsimile. But which is the Arabic for Baha’u’llah on that site because it’s not underlined?

The fascinating thing is Baha’u’llah is mentioned in all the prophecies. If you find any more links please send them to me. I didn’t know about the Bab being correctly translated also but I’m fascinated.

Humanity’s always had clues but never given absolute proof because God wants to test His creatures as well as leave a get out clause for those who prefer not to believe. So God respects our freedom of choice but for true seekers the clues are there in abundance.

 

[Vouthon]

I am yet to find a reason for us to have a glorified body in heaven. If corruptible activities do not happen, what do we do with our hands, feet and mouth there?

No one seems to be able to answer this question…if you don’t mind dear brother?

Frankly, I think it’s good for all Catholics to strengthen their Faith by contemplating these questions.

.

So do I, it’s just I feel that there are so many more fruitful topics we could discuss… This has seemed to go on forever (literally) on both sides.

As to your question, we believe that God wishes to raise matter (the material universe) to the level of transcendent reality, of Trinitarian glory. The risen body will exist “the way the spirit does”, totally subjected to the spirit and independent of space and time.

This is the ultimate “evolution” of the universe, where heaven and earth meet, with matter being “saved from futility”, because in our incorruptible bodies will be shown the fulfilment of God’s plan for his creation.

The human being is a microcosm of the universe, because we are essentially the universe becoming “aware of itself”. So it is fitting that the universe, material creation, reaches the peak of its development through us, in our incorruptible, glorified bodies.

In the end, God does not disdain matter or the material creation. He wants to glorify and free it from its limitations, as he leads it to progress. Notice the quotation from St. Paul:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection…

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

"For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies".639 (St. Paul)

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 “We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away”.

This process reaches its summit in the glorified human body. The Resurrection event of Christ was the “evolutionary leap”, as Pope Benedict XVI once called it, that inaugurated this new phase in human and material existence.

For us, many of the Eastern religions are far too “neglectful” of our material existence, positing that it is freedom from the body (or samsara, cycle of reincarnation) in a purely spiritual state that is the ultimate perfection. Islam, Zoroastrianism and to an extent Judaism may be said to commit the opposite error, or tendency, in emphasising the bodily nature of the “resurrection” or “life to come” which often becomes grossly materialistic and indistinguishable from our present reality.

Catholicism has always strived for the balance between these two extremes: yes, our highest beatitude lies in the bliss of spiritual perfection, not bodily desires, but the body is not discarded entirely; it is “spiritualized”, glorified, freed from its limitations of space and time, to become a truly “spiritual body” fit for eternity.

And so the Catholic position manifests itself as a sort of via media.

I would suggest that the Baha’i approach has more in common with the thought of the Dharmic religions than it does with that of the Abrahamic religions. Muslims would entirely reject the Baha’i understanding. The Christian view is ‘intermediate’ between both, sharing similarities with both the Dharmic and Abrahamic/Zoroastrian approaches. It is pretty unique, which I think you have noticed.

 

[JimmyDFG]

He never became a Baha’i since he was a professional and objective historian.

It’s unfair to say that a Cambridge Professor was willing to lie about some things so that he could make a religion look good. If he was swayed, or liked the religion that much, it wasn’t hard for him to be Baha’u’llah’s disciple.

He didn’t.

Spending so many years studying a religion and a Holy Figure for the objective analysis of future students will naturally teach you a lot about what you are studying. It seems these objective sources still can’t please some

I suppose if someone who hated Baha’u’llah and was jealous of His influence would have been a better source of learning for you?

I pray for the hearts to find Christ in all things…

.

Nonetheless he was influenced with the Baha’i faith. Heres an interesting article …

“At ʿAkkā Browne had acquired a copy of the account of Babi and Bahai history by Bahāʾ-Allāh’s son ʿAbd-al-Bahāʾ, which he published with a translation and extensive annotation, as A Traveller’s Narrative in 1891. Browne spoke highly of Bahāʾ-Allāh and ʿAbd-al-Bahāʾ in his introduction to this work, but the notes (II, pp. 356-73), written later, show a willingness to believe charges that Bahāʾ-Allāh had ordered some of his enemies assassinated”

 

[JimmyDFG]

Thanks Tony

I downloaded the Eli Smith Bible and found the Isaiah reference to ‘Baha’ though I had to squint a few hundred times to make sure the Arabic looked exactly the same as on the facsimile. But which is the Arabic for Baha’u’llah on that site because it’s not underlined?

The fascinating thing is Baha’u’llah is mentioned in all the prophecies. If you find any more links please send them to me. I didn’t know about the Bab being correctly translated also but I’m fascinated.

Humanity’s always had clues but never given absolute proof because God wants to test His creatures as well as leave a get out clause for those who prefer not to believe. So God respects our freedom of choice but for true seekers the clues are there in abundance.

Eli Smith died before the Bible was translated

 

[worldcitizen]

Eli Smith died before the Bible was translated

Yes but I couldn’t put the translators name here it kept doing this ****** so I used her name. Maybe it was a naughty word but it was a real name. Sorry.

 

[worldcitizen]

So do I, it’s just I feel that there are so many more fruitful topics we could discuss… This has seemed to go on forever (literally) on both sides.

As to your question, we believe that God wishes to raise matter (the material universe) to the level of transcendent reality, of Trinitarian glory. The risen body will exist “the way the spirit does”, totally subjected to the spirit and independent of space and time.

This is the ultimate “evolution” of the universe, where heaven and earth meet, with matter being “saved from futility”, because in our incorruptible bodies will be shown the fulfilment of God’s plan for his creation.

The human being is a microcosm of the universe, because we are essentially the universe becoming “aware of itself”. So it is fitting that the universe, material creation, reaches the peak of its development through us, in our incorruptible, glorified bodies.

In the end, God does not disdain matter or the material creation. He wants to glorify and free it from its limitations, as he leads it to progress. Notice the quotation from St. Paul:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

This process reaches its summit in the glorified human body. The Resurrection event of Christ was the “evolutionary leap”, as Pope Benedict XVI once called it, that inaugurated this new phase in human and material existence.

For us, many of the Eastern religions are far too “neglectful” of our material existence, positing that it is freedom from the body (or samsara, cycle of reincarnation) in a purely spiritual state that is the ultimate perfection. Islam, Zoroastrianism and to an extent Judaism may be said to commit the opposite error, or tendency, in emphasising the bodily nature of the “resurrection” or “life to come” which often becomes grossly materialistic and indistinguishable from our present reality.

Catholicism has always strived for the balance between these two extremes: yes, our highest beatitude lies in the bliss of spiritual perfection, not bodily desires, but the body is not discarded entirely; it is “spiritualized”, glorified, freed from its limitations of space and time, to become a truly “spiritual body” fit for eternity.

And so the Catholic position manifests itself as a sort of via media.

I would suggest that the Baha’i approach has more in common with the thought of the Dharmic religions than it does with that of the Abrahamic religions. Muslims would entirely reject the Baha’i understanding. The Christian view is ‘intermediate’ between both, sharing similarities with both the Dharmic and Abrahamic/Zoroastrian approaches. It is pretty unique, which I think you have noticed.

Dear Vouthon,

I hope you’re feeling better and you said you had to go for an interview? Have you been and if so how did it go? Pope Francis shows excellent leadership qualities in my view and the world’s a much better place for having him. Everywhere he goes he is either trying to reconcile differences and promote peace or discouraging crime and he’s a true ambassador for Christianity. The world needs a lot more peacemakers like him.

 

[JimmyDFG]

There are other sources, have to track them down - hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ABSTRACT-Baha’u’llah%20Bible.htm

In these Bibles the “Gate” is written as the Bab and the “Glory of the Lord”, or “The Glory of God” is written as Baha’u’llah

It was during the period of his decade or so exile in Iraq (1853-1863; the Iraq or Baghdad period') that Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i religion, began to cite Islamo-biblical then canonical biblical texts in a sometimes paraphrased Arabic or Persian version. During this period he was propagating the religion established by Sayyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab (1819-1850) which was suffering persecution and decline after the execution of its Persian founder in 1850 CE. While the Bab drew on Isra’iliyyat or Islamo-biblical and related qisas al-anbiya’ (Stories of the Prophets) materials, he seldom, if at all, quoted the canonical Bible. Baha’u’llah not only quoted the New Testament in his Arabic Jawahir al-asrar (The Gems [Essence] of the Mysteries', c.1861 CE) and the closely related, slightly later, Kitab-i Iqan (The Book of Certitude’, c. 1862 CE), he also strongly argued against the developed Islamic notion of the scriptural tahrif (“corruption”, “falsification”…) of the Bible or New Testament. This in the context of underlining the non-literal fulfillment of Biblical predictions surrounding the person and mission of the Prophet Muhammad (d. 632 CE) as well as those predictive of the messianic status of the Bab and the veracity of his new Babi religion. When understood spiritually, it was argued, biblical texts contain deep mysteries. New Testament predictions of Jesus recorded in the Gospels can be seen to have been fulfilled.

Cornelius Van Dyck (1819-1895)

The biblical proof texts cited in the two above-mentioned, major apologetic writings (istidlaliyya) of Baha’u’llah during the late 1860s are largely in accordance with Christian printed Arabic New Testament texts dating to the 17th century, most notably the Paris and London Polyglot Bibles and related Biblical texts printed during the 18th and 19th centuries. During the later decades of his mission prior to his ascension in Acre (Ottoman Palestine) in 1892 CE., Baha’u’llah continued to quote and comment upon both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament texts again largely in accordance with later Protestant translations, most notably those of the American Protestant missionaries Eli Smith (1801-1857) and Cornelius van Dyck (1819-1895), whose Arabic Bible version began to appear in print in Beirut from the mid. 1860s. Baha’u’llah and `Abdu’l-Baha often cited this Arabic translation as well other Arabic and Persian Bible translations several of which remain in print or widely circulated throughout the Middle East today.

While the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is hardly cited by Baha’u’llah before the Acre period (1868-1892 CE), there are hundreds, if not thousands of his scriptural alwah (Tablets) which cite the Hebrew Bible and/or the Christian New Testament during the last twenty-four years of his lifetime within the Ottoman dominions. A few biblically informed Tablets of Baha’u’llah dating from the late 1860s or subsequent decades have been translated into English and become well-known during the late 19th - early 20th centuries; including the Lawh-i Pap (Tablet to the Pope, c.1869) and Lawh-i Aqdas (Most Holy Tablet, mid 1870s?). Others such as the Lawh-i Hartik (Tablet to the Templar leader Hardegg, early 1872) remain little known. Many others await translation and publication.

Regards Tony

I’ll quote an article on Van Dyck and the bible translation

“The Van Dyck translation was done at the beginning of the revival of Modern Standard Arabic as a literary language, and consequently many of the terms coined did not enter into common use. One indication of this is a recent edition of the Van Dyck printed by the Bible Society in Egypt, which includes a glossary of little-understood vocabulary, with around 3000 entries. In addition to obsolete or archaic terms, this translation uses religious terminology that Muslim or other non-Christian readers may not understand (e.g. إصحاح ișḥāḥ, a Syriac borrowing meaning a chapter of the Bible; تجديف tajdīf, the word for blasphemy.) It should also be noted that an Arab Muslim reading the Bible in Arabic (especially if reading the New Testament) will find the style quite different from the style that is used in the Qur’an (this is more or less true of all Arabic translations of the Bible). Also of note is the fact that religious terminology familiar to Muslims was not very much used in this version of the Bible, as is the case in most Arabic versions of the Bible.
As a counter-reaction to Van Dyck’s Protestant translation, the Jesuits of Beirut started to prepare their own Catholic translation of the Bible soon after. The first volume of this work was published in 1876, with the whole New Testament in 1878, and the complete Bible already in 1880. The main contributors in the translator team were Father Augustin Rodet and Sheikh Ibrahim al-Yaziji.
In 1973 the Living Bibles International launched a new translation of the Arabic Bible under the direction of Georges Houssney, a Lebanese Christian based in Beirut. Houssney employed two Key translators, Said Baz for the New Testament completed in 1982, and Dr. Samuel Shahid for the Old Testament completed in 1988. Rev. Menes Abdul Noor contributed significantly. Initially, the project was vehemently opposed by Van **** proponents.”

 

[TonyBS]

But his name is …Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí

If I call myself Jesus, does that make me Jesus ?

Jesus the name Christ the Station (The annointed One)

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí the name Baha’u’llah the Station. (The Glory of God, or Glory of the Lord)

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

Jesus the name Christ the Station (The annointed One)

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí the name Baha’u’llah the Station. (The Glory of God, or Glory of the Lord)

Regards Tony

There is no such thing as “Station” in the Bible, this is some kind of Baha’i invention.

 

[Techno2000]

Bahá’u’lláh

XIX: To every discerning and illuminated heart it…

To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the** unknowable Essence**, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-19.html

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus the name Christ the Station (The annointed One)

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí the name Baha’u’llah the Station. (The Glory of God, or Glory of the Lord)

Regards Tony

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí renamed himself Baha’u’llah

Where do you or the Baha’i get “Jesus the name Christ the Station”

 

[TonyBS]

There is no such thing as “Station” in the Bible, this is some kind of Baha’i invention.

Then you will have to consider it was Jesus until His Baptism and then It was Christ after the Dove Descended at Baptism as there is always a time when the Messenger declares His Message and His Station to all Humanity.

You will also have to consider Jesus let people know he was the Christ

John 4:25 "The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

This is EXACTLY the same as the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí renamed himself Baha’u’llah

Where do you or the Baha’i get “Jesus the name Christ the Station”

See above

Regards Tony

 

[JimmyDFG]

This is the reply I got;

Khazeh is an excellent scholar, and what he says is correct:

Regards Tony

Khazeh has a close affiliation to the Baha’i faith

 

[MartinJordan]

Then you will have to consider it was Jesus until His Baptism and then It was Christ after the Dove Descended at Baptism as there is always a time when the Messenger declares His Message and His Station to all Humanity.

You will also have to consider Jesus let people know he was the Christ

John 4:25 "The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

This is EXACTLY the same as the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

The Gospel verses you’ve chosen haven’t finished. John 4 continues to clarify who Jesus is. Reminds me of the pick and choose approach. No exegesis.

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

Then you will have to consider it was Jesus until His Baptism and then It was Christ after the Dove Descended at Baptism as there is always a time when the Messenger declares His Message and His Station to all Humanity.

You will also have to consider Jesus let people know he was the Christ

John 4:25 "The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

This is EXACTLY the same as the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

No it’s not.

 

[eddie_too]

one of the things that seems apparent about the bahai religion is that no one knows all that bahaullah wrote. i base this on the bahai teaching that bahaullah wrote tens of thousands of pages of words.

even if some one has or had read all of the tens of thousands of pages (from this i gather that no one knows for certain how many pages bahaullah wrote), there have been no scholarly analysis of all of bahaullah’s writings to identify whether or not they might be contradictory or even how consistent they are.

do the bahai know how many pages of bahaullah’s writings were lost?

how do the bahai know that bahaullah wrote everything that people say he wrote?

until definitive analyses are performed and all of the writings of bahaullah are subjected to textual analysis and textual criticism, there seems to be little reason to hold them in high esteem because scholarly textual analysis might reveal in them ideas, concepts, allegories, metaphors, figurative language, etc., etc., etc. that contradict each other.

maybe they do not. maybe they do. the point is that they have not been subjected to scholarly analysis, especially by non-bahai.

admittedly, some of the writings of bahaullah have been analyzed using scholarly textual analysis and criticsim, but not all.

 

[Techno2000]

Then you will have to consider it was Jesus until His Baptism and then It was Christ after the Dove Descended at Baptism

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said,** “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”**

Jesus didn’t need any “Station” because he was God the Son .

 

[TonyBS]

It is understood the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is a great challenge to all.

To date no plausible rejection has been given, but echos of the rejections of ages past.

To the Jews, Jesus the Christs fruits were not enough;

To the Christians, Muhammad’s fruits were not enough;

To the Muslims, both the Bab and Baha’u’llah Fruits are not enough!

Time repeats, rejections repeat, time rolls on and the world will change in the direction as it is already written.

Thus not sure why one would want to keep looking for bad in the places where you will find nothing but good. We should have learned by now never to condemn a Messenger because of the people that claim the name and do not produce further fruit.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

It is understood the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is a great challenge to all.

To date no plausible rejection has been given, but echos of the rejections of ages past.

To the Jews, Jesus the Christs fruits were not enough;

To the Christians, Muhammad’s fruits were not enough;

To the Muslims, both the Bab and Baha’u’llah Fruits are not enough!

Time repeats, rejections repeat, time rolls on and the world will change in the direction as it is already written.

Thus not sure why one would want to keep looking for bad in the places where you will find nothing but good. We should have learned by now never to condemn a Messenger because of the people that claim the name and do not produce further fruit.

Regards Tony

The only Fruit produced by Baha’u’llah is confusion.