Exploring Conversion/Reversion

[sambos671]

So that I am not guilty of misleading the discussion by the title of this thread I will state that I am a revert to Catholicism for several of years now. I left the Church many years ago and by God’s grace have returned.

Keeping that in mind as I struggle aligning my thinking to Catholic Theology I wanted to explore certain differences with knowledgable Catholics regarding faith. For this discussion I’m not trying to define what faith is, rather what I really want to get at is the process one obtains faith. To explain I will reveal my thinking. As a warning or a caution there may be leaps in logic which I will be glad to have pointed out. However, my thinking process isn’t properly systematic when it comes to logic.

We see in Jesus parable that in the church the weeds are the constant companions of the wheat until the return of Christ. I take that to mean there are the truelly converted believers and the those that remain in what Paul calls “the flesh.” To my way of thinking understand this dichotomy by classifying catholics who have a faith compared to those that just have a religion. In my limited capasity of discernment I recognize my inability to judge what people fall into what catagory. Thus I can only look at myself and my particular journey experience of faith. However, I recognize that this as well is also limited. However, it is all I have on which to understand things apart divine revelation.

So to get to the crux of the issue. I was raised as a Catholic. Baptized into the faith, went to first communion and somehow was not properly catachized by the time I was confirmed. I thought I knew our Catholic faith by my childish observation during attendance of Mass and instruction at parochial elementary schools. The fact is in my way of thinking I had a religion rather than a faith. Partly because my family had the same issue. Mass is something you did on Sundays for 45 minutes and once out of mass I was free to forget about God and morality for the most part until next sunday. And if I did something really bad I had to go to confession on Saturday which I never revealed the entire truth. Not having a proper faith I became easy pickings (though I say this I don’t mean it in the negative flippant way in which I wrote it) for evangelicals. For me what intrigued me was consistency in belief and practice. My family did not exemplify this but quite the opposit. This is an unfair comparison since the evangelicals I came in contact were missionaries and my family were average working Joes. However, praying to the lord to convert me (I mean asking Jesus into my heart) seemed efficacious in that my heart changed. Whereas before my prayer I wanted to sin, enjoyed sin, and had no thought for God. At this point I had a real desire to avoid sin spend time with Jesus and enjoy him in every aspect of my life. However, after many years I have returned to the Catholic faith believing entirely that indeed Jesus established the Church, by the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and most importantly joins himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. (BTW I came at this understanding by scripture initially holding to sola scriptura but then realising by scripture alone that scriptures didn’t teach scripture alone… Long story) Unfortunately, as I grow in the Catholic faith I continue to have questions regarding this.

1. Being baptized joins me to christ in his death and resurrection and places his mark upon me by the initial action of the Holy Spirit making me born again why then does it seem regeneration didn’t start until my prayer? It seems from my experience that I had the old heart firmly in place until asking for a new one in prayer. Certainly, doesn’t Christ grant this at baptism? If I was placed with a new nature at baptism and made alive at that point why was I so entrenched in “deadness” until later?
2. On speaking to a priest who reviewed some reformed ideas indicated that the “conversion experience” which is felt and transformative (what protestants call being born again") is a creation of the Mystical Experience point of view for conversion of a particular reformed theologian whose name I forget.

I would be glad to hear any thoughts about this matter and how best to tackle the question.

 

[Gracep]

I, too, am a lapsed Catholic. Though I never left to attend other denominatons, I did not attend mass for over 20 years and basically lived a secular life. By the grace of our Blessed Mother who lead me back to Jesus and His church, I have been journeying back for about 5 years now. As for the increase in faith, it is daily walk with the Lord to get close to him through prayer and sacrifice which leads to greater peace and love. Attending daily mass and partaking of the Holy Eucharist has been a huge blessing. I think our lives are a lifelong journey in active search of the complete and fullness of the Truth. When St Paul says to approach our salvation with fear and trembling, I think it is to exhort us towards the narrow road and not to the wide one that leads to perdition. Offering up consciously the smallest daily irritations and small sacrifices and mentally uniting them to Jesus as they happen has been great for my spiritual growth.
I don’t so much worry now about the miriad of reasons why I became so lukewarm, I just try to focus on the present goodness of the Lord in creating a grateful heart in me.

 

[sambos671]

Its wonderful that your back in the faith! Truelly God is merciful

 

[DAML72]

I love your post. My son just got home from school, so I can’t really read your post thoroughly and respond fully right now. I will try to get back to this sometime later. I was not raised Catholic, but in a Protestant church - same type of experience, however, in that I went to Church every Sunday, and had what I considered a strong faith. Not sure I could say religion, as we don’t have the same types of traditions in the Protestant faith. But, it wasn’t until recently, after having been touched by the message of a Catholic friend of mine, which then prompted me to Read the Gospel of John to have what evangelical protestants would call a ‘born again’ experience. But that wasn’t the end of it - that was just the beginning as I realized the Holy Spirit is also calling me to the Catholic church.

Honestly, I’m still in the thick of it, so I don’t know if I could really parse things out in order to answer your question. Have you read the Catechism, though? The part that relates to how the Lord reveals himself once you essentially dedicate yourself or your suffering love for another in Jesus’ name - once you "pick up your cross’’ and follow him - that’s when all is revealed to you. That is kind of what I got out of reading John, and is exactly what happened for me. Also, a passage that was just revealed to me in the past few days in answer to a different question, but spoke to me with regard to what I consider to be a difference between Protestantism and Catholicism - is Mark 4:2 (from my NIV bible):
“When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”
Certainly something to ponder - Jesus seems to be saying that He comes to us in the form that we can accept him at that time according to where we are in our faith journey.

 

[JRKH]

1. Being baptized joins me to christ in his death and resurrection and places his mark upon me by the initial action of the Holy Spirit making me born again why then does it seem regeneration didn’t start until my prayer? It seems from my experience that I had the old heart firmly in place until asking for a new one in prayer. Certainly, doesn’t Christ grant this at baptism? If I was placed with a new nature at baptism and made alive at that point why was I so entrenched in “deadness” until later?

There is a cooperation that goes on between God and man…God supplies grace but man must respond - accept and act on - that grace. Some do this sooner than others and some never do. Your childhood environment probably played a role in your case…It took a “different” atmosphere to get things rolling then God brought you back home where He needs you.

1. On speaking to a priest who reviewed some reformed ideas indicated that the “conversion experience” which is felt and transformative (what protestants call being born again") is a creation of the Mystical Experience point of view for conversion of a particular reformed theologian whose name I forget.
   Can’t help you on the name, but I will say that the Catholic Church has a wonderful tradition of the mystical embodied in such saints as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Catherine of Sienna…The book in my signature is a wonderful summary of the teachings…the path…embodied in this tradition. If this is something that interests you it’s a great introduction.
   You have been blessed to have this experience.

I would be glad to hear any thoughts about this matter and how best to tackle the question.

Hope this helps a little

Peace
James

 

[sambos671]

I love your post. My son just got home from school, so I can’t really read your post thoroughly and respond fully right now. I will try to get back to this sometime later. I was not raised Catholic, but in a Protestant church - same type of experience, however, in that I went to Church every Sunday, and had what I considered a strong faith. Not sure I could say religion, as we don’t have the same types of traditions in the Protestant faith. But, it wasn’t until recently, after having been touched by the message of a Catholic friend of mine, which then prompted me to Read the Gospel of John to have what evangelical protestants would call a ‘born again’ experience. But that wasn’t the end of it - that was just the beginning as I realized the Holy Spirit is also calling me to the Catholic church.

Honestly, I’m still in the thick of it, so I don’t know if I could really parse things out in order to answer your question. Have you read the Catechism, though? The part that relates to how the Lord reveals himself once you essentially dedicate yourself or your suffering love for another in Jesus’ name - once you "pick up your cross’’ and follow him - that’s when all is revealed to you. That is kind of what I got out of reading John, and is exactly what happened for me. Also, a passage that was just revealed to me in the past few days in answer to a different question, but spoke to me with regard to what I consider to be a difference between Protestantism and Catholicism - is Mark 4:2 (from my NIV bible):
“When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”
Certainly something to ponder - Jesus seems to be saying that He comes to us in the form that we can accept him at that time according to where we are in our faith journey.

It is affirming to hear a brother have a similar experience but the other way round with protestantism. It certainly is something to ponder. I’ll think on this for a bit. Thanks for sharing!

 

[sambos671]

There is a cooperation that goes on between God and man…God supplies grace but man must respond - accept and act on - that grace. Some do this sooner than others and some never do. Your childhood environment probably played a role in your case…It took a “different” atmosphere to get things rolling then God brought you back home where He needs you.

1. On speaking to a priest who reviewed some reformed ideas indicated that the “conversion experience” which is felt and transformative (what protestants call being born again") is a creation of the Mystical Experience point of view for conversion of a particular reformed theologian whose name I forget.
   Can’t help you on the name, but I will say that the Catholic Church has a wonderful tradition of the mystical embodied in such saints as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Catherine of Sienna…The book in my signature is a wonderful summary of the teachings…the path…embodied in this tradition. If this is something that interests you it’s a great introduction.
   You have been blessed to have this experience.

Hope this helps a little

Peace
James

I’ll check it out. Thanks!

 

[fide]

…

So to get to the crux of the issue. I was raised as a Catholic. Baptized into the faith, went to first communion and somehow was not properly catachized by the time I was confirmed. I thought I knew our Catholic faith by my childish observation during attendance of Mass and instruction at parochial elementary schools. The fact is in my way of thinking I had a religion rather than a faith. Partly because my family had the same issue. Mass is something you did on Sundays for 45 minutes and once out of mass I was free to forget about God and morality for the most part until next sunday. And if I did something really bad I had to go to confession on Saturday which I never revealed the entire truth. Not having a proper faith I became easy pickings (though I say this I don’t mean it in the negative flippant way in which I wrote it) for evangelicals. For me what intrigued me was consistency in belief and practice. My family did not exemplify this but quite the opposit. This is an unfair comparison since the evangelicals I came in contact were missionaries and my family were average working Joes. However, praying to the lord to convert me (I mean asking Jesus into my heart) seemed efficacious in that my heart changed. Whereas before my prayer I wanted to sin, enjoyed sin, and had no thought for God. At this point I had a real desire to avoid sin spend time with Jesus and enjoy him in every aspect of my life. However, after many years I have returned to the Catholic faith believing entirely that indeed Jesus established the Church, by the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and most importantly joins himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. (BTW I came at this understanding by scripture initially holding to sola scriptura but then realising by scripture alone that scriptures didn’t teach scripture alone… Long story) Unfortunately, as I grow in the Catholic faith I continue to have questions regarding this.

1. Being baptized joins me to christ in his death and resurrection and places his mark upon me by the initial action of the Holy Spirit making me born again why then does it seem regeneration didn’t start until my prayer? It seems from my experience that I had the old heart firmly in place until asking for a new one in prayer. Certainly, doesn’t Christ grant this at baptism? If I was placed with a new nature at baptism and made alive at that point why was I so entrenched in “deadness” until later?
2. On speaking to a priest who reviewed some reformed ideas indicated that the “conversion experience” which is felt and transformative (what protestants call being born again") is a creation of the Mystical Experience point of view for conversion of a particular reformed theologian whose name I forget.

I would be glad to hear any thoughts about this matter and how best to tackle the question.

Hello Sambos -

When you were baptized, you received faith “in seed form” - in potency - certainly not in its full maturity. The full maturity of faith is to be the goal and intention of a Christian. We are to grow in faith, in our life-long calling into Christ. The Catechism has this:

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.<Cf. Mk 16:16> But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. …
1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. …
1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.<Cf. CIC, cann. 872-874> Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).<Cf. SC 67> The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

And this:

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;

The grace of Baptism enables - but human cooperation with this grace is needed to have it grow as it should. Note also that sin has the opposite effect: sin against faith or hope or charity will at least weaken it (if venial sin) or destroy it (if mortal sin). A baptized child has the grace and the seed of faith, but that faith can be either nourished and can grow, OR be weakened OR be destroyed by the time he gets into adolescence.

The “born again experience” that evangelicals talk about is something a bit different. A book that explains much of the orthodox Catholic spiritual life, as lived and explained by many of our great saints and doctors, is available (in paperback, or Kindle and Nook ebooks), The Ordinary Path to Holiness. This book explains how faith grows (if it grows) through the crucial stages of the interior life.