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Clement, writing in 1 Clement, says the following:
1Clem 60:1 - Thou through Thine operations didst make manifest the everlasting
fabric of the world…
Is Clement teaching that that there was an eternal substratum that God created the universe from? Doesn’t this contradict creatio ex nihilo?
 
Clement, writing in 1 Clement, says the following:

Is Clement teaching that that there was an eternal substratum that God created the universe from? Doesn’t this contradict creatio ex nihilo?
It sounds like he is saying that He literally made the fabric of the world. So I’d say there is no contradiction there.
 
It is the word “manifest” that gets me. You don’t create something you made manifest, do you?
 
Is Clement teaching that that there was an eternal substratum that God created the universe from? Doesn’t this contradict creatio ex nihilo?
I’m not terribly familiar with 1 Clement, but I took a look at it just now. It seems to me that 60:1 is in the midst of a passage that is of the form of a prayer to God. Given that its genre is prayer and not exposition, I’m not certain that it’s fair to treat it as if it were a philosophy text; that’s not how the genre of prayer works… 😉
 
I’m not terribly familiar with 1 Clement, but I took a look at it just now. It seems to me that 60:1 is in the midst of a passage that is of the form of a prayer to God. Given that its genre is prayer and not exposition, I’m not certain that it’s fair to treat it as if it were a philosophy text; that’s not how the genre of prayer works… 😉
Okay, that makes some more sense. Clement didn’t intend his words to be taken as a philosophical position. Still, it troubles me that he used the word “manifest” instead of “create.” A prayer to the Almighty must still be theologically sound, right?
 
Still, it troubles me that he used the word “manifest” instead of “create.”
Why? You can create something but not make it manifest, right?

How are you taking ‘the fabric of the world’? What does it mean, and what would it mean to make it manifest after creating it?
 
Why? You can create something but not make it manifest, right?
Right.
How are you taking ‘the fabric of the world’? What does it mean, and what would it mean to make it manifest after creating it?
I take fabric of the world to mean the material nature of reality. To make it manifest after creating it would mean to make it manifest, I guess. But Clement doesn’t say anything like that, does he?
 
Clement, writing in 1 Clement, says the following:

Is Clement teaching that that there was an eternal substratum that God created the universe from? Doesn’t this contradict creatio ex nihilo?
He is simply acknowledging God as Creator, as his very next statement emphasizes:

“You, Lord, created the earth on which we dwell”.

You are WAY overanalyzing and trying to apply some convoluted meaning to something that really is simple.
 
He is simply acknowledging God as Creator, as his very next statement emphasizes:

“You, Lord, created the earth on which we dwell”.

You are WAY overanalyzing and trying to apply some convoluted meaning to something that really is simple.
I am not overanalyzing and I am not trying to apply a convoluted meaning to something. I’m trying to make sure that Clement is referring to creatio ex nihilo. I thought this would be an appropriate question for a Catholic forum. I guess not. 😦
 
I am not overanalyzing and I am not trying to apply a convoluted meaning to something. I’m trying to make sure that Clement is referring to creatio ex nihilo. I thought this would be an appropriate question for a Catholic forum. I guess not. 😦
Don’t worry, questions are always welcomed by some. I really think that, if it wasn’t certain that God created literally everything ex nihilo at that time, it would be discovered gradually through reason and God’s promise of discerning truth through the Spirit. Our Church is good at that.

Still, I really see nothing in Clement’s statement that would indicate he thought God formed everything out of a pre-existing material. The ‘fabric’ of the universe is the building material itself, so God formed the fabric. He made it. In fact, Clement would have been opposed to the Gnostics, who thought that an evil deity created all matter, and may not have believed in ‘ex nihilo’. So it is highly unlikely that Clement was heterodox on this particular doctrine.
 
I am not overanalyzing and I am not trying to apply a convoluted meaning to something. I’m trying to make sure that Clement is referring to creatio ex nihilo. I thought this would be an appropriate question for a Catholic forum. I guess not. 😦
seemed like a good question

couple of problems i saw in drawing conclusions from the statement/prayer:
  • Clement wasn’t speaking English - lost in translation?
  • It’s hard to find the right words (which ultimately can be understood in different ways)
unless something is stated outright, in different ways preferably, I usually don’t conclude that it has any one specific/particular meaning
  • does this make sense? It didn’t seem to come out the way I intended it.
 
Don’t worry, questions are always welcomed by some. I really think that, if it wasn’t certain that God created literally everything ex nihilo at that time, it would be discovered gradually through reason and God’s promise of discerning truth through the Spirit. Our Church is good at that.

Still, I really see nothing in Clement’s statement that would indicate he thought God formed everything out of a pre-existing material. The ‘fabric’ of the universe is the building material itself, so God formed the fabric. He made it. In fact, Clement would have been opposed to the Gnostics, who thought that an evil deity created all matter, and may not have believed in ‘ex nihilo’. So it is highly unlikely that Clement was heterodox on this particular doctrine.
All good points. I’m beginning to think that “make manifest” can mean “to create.” I’m not sure, though.
seemed like a good question

couple of problems i saw in drawing conclusions from the statement/prayer:
  • Clement wasn’t speaking English - lost in translation?
  • It’s hard to find the right words (which ultimately can be understood in different ways)
unless something is stated outright, in different ways preferably, I usually don’t conclude that it has any one specific/particular meaning
  • does this make sense? It didn’t seem to come out the way I intended it.
Yes, it does make sense. If I am not mistaken, though, Clement would have been writing from a Platonist background, which assumed the eternity of matter. You’re right, though, that that doesn’t mean that’s what Clement meant by his statement. I just wish things were clearer.
 
A Mormon apologist said the following concerning certain church fathers:

Aristides of Athens.

Copan and Craig also assert that perhaps the earliest philosophical apologist for Christianity, Aristides of Athens, expressly taught the doctrine of creation out of nothing. Their analysis is seriously flawed and, indeed, borders on being irresponsible. Aristides reportedly delivered an apology to the Roman emperor Hadrian about AD 130. Copan and Craig fail to inform the reader that the textual sources vary and are quite questionable.[54] There are three recencions of Aristides’ Apology: a shorter Greek version, a much longer Syriac version, and Armenian translations of the Syriac. Aristides reportedly stated:
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Let us come now, O king, also to the history of the Jews and let us see what sort of opinion they have concerning God. The Jews then say that God is one, Creator of all and almighty: and that it is not proper for us that anything else should be worshipped, but this God only: and in this they appear to be much nearer to the truth than all the peoples, in that they worship God more exceedingly and not His works.[55]
They also cite a passage found only in the shorter Greek recension: “O King, let us proceed to the elements themselves that we may show in regard to them that they are not gods, but perishable and mutable, produced out of that which did not exist (ἐκ τοῦ μὴ ὄντος) at the command of the true God, who is indestructible and immutable and invisible, yet he sees all things and, as He wills, modifies and changes things.”[56] Copan and Craig argue that these statementsimply creation out of nothing because Aristides claims that God is both “Artificer and Creator.” They thus claim that the text asserts: (1) “there is an ontological distinction between Creator and creature . . . ; and (2) God created in stages, first bringing into being the elements and then shaping them into a cosmos” (CON, p. 131).

Neither of these assertions is supported by the text. There is not a word about a two-stage creation in Aristides’ Apology. There is a distinction between creator and creature, but it is not an ontological distinction as claimed by Copan and Craig. Rather, the text merely states that God is incorruptible and unchangeable, whereas “the elements” (not “matter”) are subject to decay and change.The elements were always seen as created from a preexisting substrate that the Greeks called the τοῦ μὴ ὄντος (tou mē ontos) or “non-being.” Those who believed in creation ex materia never claimed that matter should be worshipped or that it is somehow equal with God. It was lifeless and liable to fall into chaos, whereas God is the source of life and order. Moreover, those who accept creation from preexisting matter also saw a distinction between the creator who organizes everything that is created and the created, which would be no-thing, completely devoid of order and form, in the absence of God’s creative activity. Thus, merely recognizing that God is creator and that he created all that is created does not imply or logically require creation out of nothing.

More important, this analysis shows very clearly that Copan and Craig have failed to grasp the essential distinction between relative non-being, which refers to a material substrate without form, and absolute nothing in these texts. Aristides (if he said it at all) uses the exact phrase used by Aristotle to refer to generation of life “out of non-being” ἐκ τοῦ μὴ ὄντος. The technical language used shows that this text actually refers to the creation from the preexisting material substrate of relative non-being without form. Thus, May concludes quite accurately that: “Aristides means that the elements are created by God; but it does not appear from his book that he consciously distanced himself from the philosophical model of world-formation and . . . creation.”

CONTINUED…
 
Justin Martyr.

There are at least four late second-century Christian philosophers who believed that creation out of matter was the established Christian doctrine. It must be noticed that as we pass from the biblical texts into the patristic writings of the late second century, the scope of discourse passes from a nontechnical devotional and revelatory literature to the technical discussions of philosophy. By this time, philosophical distinctions and assumptions are used to make sense of the received doctrine. The importance of these philosophers, however, is not found in their arguments or philosophies but in the fact that they accepted the background assumption of creation from already existing matter precisely because they thought it was the received Christian doctrine.

For example, Justin Martyr, writing about AD 165, taught that Plato had received his doctrine of creation from Moses’s writings:
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And that you may learn that it was from our teachers—we mean the account given through the prophets—that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world (ἐδημιούργησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον), spake thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so." So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance (Ωστε λόγῳ Θεου ἐκ τῶν ὑποκειμένων . . . γεγενῆσθαι τὸν πάντα κόσμον) spoken of before by Moses.[83]
Like Philo, Justin Martyr thought that there was no problem in interpreting Genesis in Platonistic terms—God had created by organizing matter. Yet Justin’s statement that this is a doctrine “we . . . have learned” gives pause, for he is speaking to Greeks who agree with Plato. He is claiming that he has learned in the Christian tradition that via his Word, God created all things by organizing matter and that this view is older than Plato’s. The verb used by Justin to indicate that God created by “altering matter” is στρέψαντα (strepsanta), meaning “rotating or turning.” Such language echoes Plato’s view, taught in the Timaeus, that the Demiurge created the cosmos by setting the world soul in rotation and that by the same act matter is ordered.[84] Further, Justin uses the Platonic term for creation, ἐδημιούργησεν (edēmiourgēsen), “to fashion or form.” Note also that it is the entire world—τὸν πάντα κόσμον (ton panta kosmon)—that is formed out of the amorphous matter. Moreover, Justin gives this explanation in light of the statement in Genesis 1:1 that “In the beginning, God created the world.” What God did in Genesis 1:1, according to Justin, was to give form and shape to the underlying material substrate through the action of his Word.

Earlier in his First Apology, Justin declared: “God, in the beginning, in His goodness made (δημιουργῆσαι) everything out of shapeless matter (ἐξ ἀμόρφου ὕλης) for the sake of men.”[85] Again, Justin signals that he is referring to the opening statement in the Genesis creation account, “in the beginning God made” (Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίσεν ὁ Θεὸς). Justin is quoting the Septuagint text of Genesis 1:1. Moreover, the scope of what God organized from shapeless matter is “everything” (τὰ πάντα). Once again he uses the Platonic term for creation, demiurgesai, the act of the Demiurge in Plato’s thought. These statements leave little doubt that Justin has embraced Middle Platonism and that he views everything created as having been fashioned out of a material substrate and that this mode of creation is the meaning of the Genesis creation account.

Nevertheless, Copan and Craig once again insist that Justin adopts a two-stage creation in which Justin believed that the formless matter was first created ex nihilo (CON, pp. 131-34).[86] Their primary argument is that God is referred to by Justin as the only “unbegotten” (ἀγεννήτος) and “incorruptible” (ἄφθαρτος) (CON, pp. 132-34).[87] They equate being unbegotten and incorruptible with being uncreated, and being begotten and corruptible with being created out of nothing. Yet it is an equation that is not found in Justin’s writings. He never connects these terms with creation at all. Their argument will not bear the weight they place on it in light of Justin’s explicit statements to the contrary. Once again, we see Copan and Craig forcing their preconceived view onto the text even against explicit and clear statements to the contrary. It seems to me that Copan and Craig have highlighted a problem that begins to manifest itself in Justin’s works. The notion of God adopted by Middle Platonists was not consistent with the earlier Christian views and was inconsistent with Justin’s views about creation. His adoption of Middle Platonic terms to describe God placed a gulf between the created and God just as it did for Philo. It is no mistake that Justin also adopts the Logos as halfway between God and creation. He did not realize this inconsistency, of course. Justin continued to hold to the view that God created out of a preexisting substrate that was not created by God. He states clearly that “everything” is created by giving order to this unformed matter. He is crystal clear that he is referring to the entire creation recounted in Genesis 1. It is only with Tatian and Theophilus that we first see a clearly articulated statement as to why the Middle Platonic view of God that they all adopted was inconsistent with creation out of a preexisting, material substrate.
 
Athenagoras of Athens.

Athenagoras of Athens, writing about AD 170, also taught that God created by crystallizing an already existing substrate: the Logos, or Word, “came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter.”[88] However, Copan and Craig believe that Athenagoras adopted a two-stage creation where the “inactive earth” from which all things were created was itself created ex nihilo. Athenagoras, of course, never says that there is a two-stage creation, but Copan and Craig maintain that Athenagoras implicitly adopted creation out of nothing in the following passage:
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But to us, who distinguish God from matter, and teach that matter is one thing and God another, and that they are separated by a wide interval (for that the Deity is uncreated and eternal, to be beheld by the understanding and reason alone, while matter is created and perishable), is it not absurd to apply the name of atheism?. . . But, since our doctrine acknowledges one God, the Maker of this universe, who is Himself uncreated (for that which is does not come to be, but that which is not) but has made all things by the Logos which is from Him. (CON, p. 134)[89]
Copan and Craig assert that “unquestionably,” Athenagoras teaches creation out of nothing here (CON, p. 144). Here they seriously misrepresent Athenagoras’s teachings. Once again we have a text that explicitly and repeatedly states that God creates by organizing an underlying material substrate, and yet Copan and Craig wrest the text in an attempt to make it conform to their two-stage theory of creation ex nihilo. It is undeniable that here Athenagoras does not assert that all things are created “out of nothing,” but merely that, unlike God, they are “created.” Copan and Craig assume that if Athenagoras says that everything is created, that means they are created ex nihilo. However, Athenagoras did not use the word create to mean creation out nothing. His statement is consistent with the view that God organized the material substratum in creating and that all things are therefore created whereas God is not organized by himself. So I agree that Athenoragoras distinguishes between creator and the created, but it is not the ontological distinction between the absolutely non-existent and self-existent, but between what can fall apart and perish because it has been organized and given form and that which is eternal and imperishable.[90]

Indeed, Copan and Craig cite another passage (p. 135) that they believe supports creation out nothing; but in reality it supports the view that Athenagoras thinks of creation as organized unformed matter:
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Because the multitude, who cannot distinguish between matter and God, or see how great is the interval which lies between them, pray to idols made of matter, are we therefore, who do distinguish and separate the uncreated and the created, that which is τὸ ὄν] and that which is not τὸ οὐκ ὄν], that which is apprehended by the understanding and that which is perceived by the senses . . .[91]
It is clear that Athenagoras distinguishes between the creator and the created, yet Copan and Craig fail to acknowledge that this assertion is followed by an explanation that undercuts their entire argument. First, the phrase τὸ οὐκ ὄν refers to the underlying material substrate and not to absolute nothing.[92] More important, and decisively, Athenagoras is explicit that his view of creation is organization and framing and that God is like an artist who stands in relation to the matter he has created as a potter stands to the clay:
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But if they [God and matter] are at the greatest possible remove from one another—as far asunder as the artist and the materials of his art—why are we called to account? For as is the potter and the clay (matter being the clay, and the artist the potter), so is God, the Framer of the world, and matter, which is subservient to Him for the purposes of His art. But as the clay cannot become vessels of itself without art, so neither did matter, which is capable of taking all forms, receive, apart from God the Framer, distinction and shape and order. And as we do not hold the pottery of more worth than him who made it, nor the vessels or glass and gold than him who wrought them; but if there is anything about them elegant in art we praise the artificer, and it is he who reaps the glory of the vessels: even so with matter and God—the glory and honour of the orderly arrangement of the world belongs of right not to matter, but to God, the Framer of matter. So that, if we were to regard the various forms of matter as gods, we should seem to be without any sense of the true God, because we should be putting the things which are dissoluble and perishable on a level with that which is eternal.[93]
So God is one who organizes matter in the same way that a potter forms the clay—and such an analogy certainly is inconsistent with creation ex nihilo.[94] In fact, Athenagoras is explicit that his view of creation is the same as Plato’s, who also says that God creates all things:

Continued…
 
But, inasmuch as it is impossible to demonstrate without the citation of names that we are not alone in confining the notion of God to unity, I have ventured on an enumeration of opinions. Plato, then, says, “To find out the Maker and Father of this universe is difficult; and, when found, it is impossible to declare Him to all,” conceiving of one uncreated and eternal God. And if he recognises others as well, such as the sun, moon, and stars, yet he recognises them as created: “gods, offspring of gods, of whom I am the Maker, and the Father of works which are indissoluble apart from my will; but whatever is compounded can be dissolved.” If, therefore, Plato is not an atheist for conceiving of one uncreated God, the Framer of the universe, neither are we atheists who acknowledge and firmly hold that He is God who has framed all things by the Logos, and holds them in being by His Spirit.[95]

It is transparent that Athenagoras believed that his views of God as the uncreated creator were the same as Plato’s. He states that, just as Plato believed that one God framed the universe, so Christians also believe that God framed all things through the Logos or Word of God. He expressly states that Plato makes the same distinction between creator and created that Christians do. Yet it is clear that Plato believed that the universe had been created by organizing a preexisting material substrate. Thus, Copan and Craig have failed to read Athenagoras within the context of his own statements about the creator/creature dichotomy and have imposed their own theological agenda on him. Athenagoras is very clear that when he refers to “created things” he means those things that have forms or “patterns”: “for created things are like their patterns; but the uncreated are unlike, being neither produced from any one, nor formed after the pattern of any one.”

It must be recognized that Athenagoras’s doctrine is thoroughly Platonic, notwithstanding the fact that he seeks to defend Christian doctrine. He posits a vast chasm between the created and the creator such that an intermediary is necessary for God to have contact with the world. He presents a thoroughly Middle Platonic view of God. His view of the Logos, in particular, is derived from Stoicism and Platonism. The Logos is the energizing instrument of God through whom the underlying substrate of matter is given form from the Ideas of God:
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But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind νοῦς], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos λογικός]); but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter.[96]
Hermogenes.

The writings of Tertullian tell of Hermogenes, another Christian philosopher writing around the end of the second century who believed in creation ex materia. Hermogenes wrote after Tatian and Theophilus had formulated the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. By this time, all parties discussing the issue were working from Middle Platonic assumptions about God and matter. Tertullian tells us that Hermogenes argued for the existence of eternal matter based on the Middle Platonic assumption that matter is evil and therefore cannot be created by a good God:
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But we find evil things made by him, although not by choice or will. Because if they were made by his choice or will, he would have made something inconsistent or unworthy of himself. What he does not make by his choice, must be understood to be made by the fault of another thing: from matter without doubt.[97]
Clement of Alexandria.

Finally, Clement of Alexandria, writing about AD 220, also adopted the view that matter is eternal and that God created by organizing a chaotic substratum. Indeed, Clement used the phrase made out of nothing three times in the Stromata, but each time he used the technical term ἐκ μὴ ὄντος, which shows that he was discussing creation from relative nonbeing rather than creatio ex nihilo.[98] Clement clearly favored creation ex materia in a poem:
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O King . . .

Maker of all, who heaven and heaven's adornment

By the Divine Word alone didst make;

. . . according to a well-ordered plan;

Out of a confused heap who didst create

This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass

Of matter didst the universe adorn.[99]
These texts are significant because they show that creation out of matter was still the accepted view. Further, as Young indicates, these texts show that creatio ex nihilo was not an inheritance from either the Jewish or the earliest Christian tradition during the apostolic period. Young’s reasons for rejecting the assumption of a Jewish origin for the doctrine include:
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(i) the sparsity of reference to the doctrine in Jewish texts, and indeed in the earliest Christian material, and the problem of interpreting those references that do exist . . . ;

(ii) the contrary evidence of the Wisdom of Solomon and the works of Philo, and in early Christianity, of Justin, Athenagoras, Hermogenes and Clement of Alexandria. All these authors seem quite happy to adopt without question the Platonic view of an active and passive element, namely God plus matter. The fact that Philo can even so speak of things being created ex ouk ontōn shows that the term could be understood as consistent with the notion of pre-existent matter which he takes for granted elsewhere. Middle Platonism was married with Jewish tradition without any sense of tension;
 
Wisdom 11:17 - “For your all-powerful hand, which created the world out of formless matter…”

Does the Wisdom of Solomon affirm creatio ex materia? Or is it simply skipping over the first stage of creation, when God made the formless matter? Or something else entirely?

For your information, I’m currently in discussion with Mormons, which is why I’m asking all these questions about creatio ex nihilo.
 
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