Exposure(Modesty Static vs Dynamic)

[Walking_Home]

never loses dignity in God’s - true
never loses dignity in your own eyes - false, but as you said you have complete control over this. Only I can lower the dignity I see in myself.
never loses dignity in the eyes of others - false

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That would speak of a deficiency of a Christ like attitude on the part of those others.

 

[Nate13]

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That would speak of a deficiency of a Christ like attitude on the part of those others.

What is the failure of a woman or man when they are unintentionally immodest then? Your arguments seem to almost say that unintentional immodesty is impossible. If a women goes out on the street in New York City stark naked, but with zero intent to be immodest and has pure intentions, did she commit a sin? Obviously the circumstances given mean she would not be committing a sin willfully so at worst it would be a venial sin. But did she commit a sin, and if so why was what she did sinful?

 

[Walking_Home]

severus68:

Perhaps it is more accurate to say culture differs from place to place.

What makes a person’s culture the ultimate authority worth listening to on the concept of modesty? Especially when that culture’s idea of modesty is based a lot on what causes men to lust?

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We cannot make the assumption that cultures “base” modesty on men’s lust.

A culture can retain/develop on the procreative view of the body – where body parts are not objects of lust – but organs for procreation and the nurturing of infants.

 

[Nate13]

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We cannot make the assumption that cultures “base” modesty on men’s lust.

A culture can retain/develop on the procreative view of the body – where body parts are not objects of lust – but organs for procreation and the nurturing of infants.

Are cultures who’s views of modesty are built partially/fully on men’s lust, unjust then?

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

That would speak of a deficiency of a Christ like attitude on the part of those others.

What is the failure of a woman or man when they are unintentionally immodest then? Your arguments seem to almost say that unintentional immodesty is impossible. If a women goes out on the street in New York City stark naked, but with zero intent to be immodest and has pure intentions, did she commit a sin? Obviously the circumstances given mean she would not be committing a sin willfully so at worst it would be a venial sin. But did she commit a sin, and if so why was what she did sinful?

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I am saying this. Part of having a Christ like attitude – that says we care about human being is-- not stripping them of their dignity – and giving them respect

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II
TO HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS
Madison Square Garden, New York
Wednesday, 3 October 1979

Dear young people,

I am happy to be with you in Madison Square Garden. Today this is a garden of life, where young people are alive: alive with hope and love, alive with the life of Christ. And it is in the name of Christ that I greet each one of you today.

I have been told that most of you come from Catholic high schools. For this reason I would like to say something about Catholic education, to tell you why the Church considers it so important and expends so much energy in order to provide you and millions of other young people with a Catholic education.** The answer can be summarized in one word, in one person, Jesus Christ. The Church wants to communicate Christ to you.**

1. This is what education is all about, this is the meaning of life: to know Christ. To know Christ as a friend: as someone who cares about you and the person next to you, and all the people here and everywhere—no matter what language they speak, or what clothes they wear, or what color their skin is.

And so the purpose of Catholic education is to communicate Christ to you, so that your attitude toward others will be that of Christ. You are approaching that stage in your life when you must take personal responsibility for your own destiny. Soon you will be making major decisions which will affect the whole course of your life. If these decisions reflect Christ’s attitude, then your education will be a success. …

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1979/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19791003_ny-madison-square-garden_en.html

 

[passer_by]

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We cannot make the assumption that cultures “base” modesty on men’s lust.

A culture can retain/develop on the procreative view of the body – where body parts are not objects of lust – but organs for procreation and the nurturing of infants.

In a world of concupiscence, what you say is impossible. If you forget the concept known as original sin or disregard its effects completely like some early heresies, then yes, you will end up with a view where possible everyone could go nude in society.

But Church teaching is clear, we are fallen creatures as a result of concupiscence. Our struggle is a life long one. Hence, our cultural standards of dress, conduct etc are based on the idea of preventing temptation to sin as well.

 

[Walking_Home]

Are cultures who’s views of modesty are built partially/fully on men’s lust, unjust then?

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Cultures based on the subjugation–humiliation–treating women as objects —No --such would not be just.

Lust tends to subordinate others to our will, subjugating them and humiliating them by treating them as objects.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_light_en.html

 

[passer_by]

Your dignity is your dignity, no one can take it away whatever they think or say.

Dignity cannot be taken away. BUT, one can behave in such a way that is inappropriate to ones level of dignity. That is a sin.

So when a woman dresses immodestly, she dresses in a way that is not appropriate to her level of dignity as a person and hence commits a sin.

When a man lusts after a woman, he treats her in a way that is inappropriate to her dignity as a person and hence commits a sin.

 

[Walking_Home]

In a world of concupiscence, what you say is impossible. If you forget the concept known as original sin or disregard its effects completely like some early heresies, then yes, you will end up with a view where possible everyone could go nude in society.

But Church teaching is clear, we are fallen creatures as a result of concupiscence. Our struggle is a life long one. Hence, our cultural standards of dress, conduct etc are based on the idea of preventing temptation to sin as well.

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Again – you are taking men down —to the level of animals and using concupiscence as a crutch–to defend lustful men’s “weakness”.

 

[Debora123]

Many women cannot achieve orgasm or sexual arousal by means of their ankles…they can with breasts. Apples and oranges. Of course they are not sexual organs, but why is that the qualifier?

Are you serious?? A lot of body parts can achieve orgasm or sexual arousal (including just the eyes!). Excuse the TMI, but I’ve once accidentally had an orgasm while kissing my husband (when we were still engaged)… no stimulation whatsoever to the genitals or the breasts.

Where does it state that only sexual organs are inherently sexual? There are studies that show women’s hips are sexual in that men would see them as an indicator as to how well a woman could provide for a child in the womb.

If you want to believe that African tribal people purposely desensitized themselves to the “inherent” sexuality of breasts, go ahead. We’ve already had this conversation on another thread. You’ve got your mind made up that being topless is always immodest and always sexual, even amongst African tribes who don’t see anything sexual in regards to breasts. Believe what you want.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Lost_Sheep

I will answer that, since I am from Rio de Janeiro.

First of all I’ll start off by saying that you are very incorrect in thinking that the women in Rio typically go to the beach topless. Although I have seen topless women at the beach there, it is a very rare thing, and not considered normal, modest, or appropriate.

So yes, going to the beach topless in Rio is immodest.

 

[anp1215]

Anyone? Anyone?.. Bueller?

I’ve never been to Brazil so I can’t be entirely sure but the way I see it is, an African tribeswoman never wears a shirt, as in, they don’t even own a shirt. In her day to day life, she and everyone in her tribe goes shirtless. Shirts are foreign to them, etc.

The average Brazilian woman I’m sure wears a shirt everywhere she goes, to work, school, church, etc. In this society, if she decided to go to work topless, that would be bizarre to others. Shirts are not foreign to her. So if she decides to go to the beach topless, I think that would be immodest.

 

[Debora123]

I’ve never been to Brazil so I can’t be entirely sure but the way I see it is, an African tribeswoman never wears a shirt, as in, they don’t even own a shirt. In her day to day life, she and everyone in her tribe goes shirtless. Shirts are foreign to them, etc.

The average Brazilian woman I’m sure wears a shirt everywhere she goes, to work, school, church, etc. In this society, if she decided to go to work topless, that would be bizarre to others. Shirts are not foreign to her. So if she decides to go to the beach topless, I think that would be immodest.

You are correct.

See my post #135

 

[anp1215]

You are correct.

See my post #135

yes I did see. I had formulated my response while reading through the thread and decided to post anyway even though you had answered because I thought it added a little to what you put.

 

[Debora123]

yes I did see. I had formulated my response while reading through the thread and decided to post anyway even though you had answered because I thought it added a little to what you put.

 

[anp1215]

 

[Nate13]

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I am saying this. Part of having a Christ like attitude – that says we care about human being is-- not stripping them of their dignity – and giving them respect

That is not an answer to the question. Sin or not a sin… You have a situation, a place, and a culture. Why can’t you give an answer to that?

Cultures based on the subjugation–humiliation–treating women as objects —No --such would not be just.

Not really the question I asked but close enough. I’d be happy if I just got a straight answer to the 1st question above. Your more dodgy than a politician haha.

After your answer to the above though, if a cultures idea of modesty is not based upon men’s lust, what does a culture base its idea of modesty off of then? I agree with you that it seems unjust, but then I’m confused as to what a culture’s idea of modesty is based off of then? There is some rhyme or reason to it is there not?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

I will answer that, since I am from Rio de Janeiro.

First of all I’ll start off by saying that you are very incorrect in thinking that the women in Rio typically go to the beach topless. Although I have seen topless women at the beach there, it is a very rare thing, and not considered normal, modest, or appropriate.

So yes, going to the beach topless in Rio is immodest.

Thank you.

But, OK; perhaps Rio was a bad example. I’m talking more in theory about places where casual nudity is not uncommon. What about “nudist camps”? Supposedly, the nudist culture is more about communing with nature than it is about the sex.

 

[Walking_Home]

That is not an answer to the question. Sin or not a sin… You have a situation, a place, and a culture. Why can’t you give an answer to that?

Not really the question I asked but close enough. I’d be happy if I just got a straight answer to the 1st question above. Your more dodgy than a politician haha.

After your answer to the above though, if a cultures idea of modesty is not based upon men’s lust, what does a culture base its idea of modesty off of then? I agree with you that it seems unjust, but then I’m confused as to what a culture’s idea of modesty is based off of then? There is some rhyme or reason to it is there not?

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A woman walking around naked in public in our culture – would not be correct. She would end up arrested. As to the “sin” – in the end – that is up to God.

As to you question on culture – maybe – that should be asked of someone – who specializes in that area. But a culture based/driven by men’s lust – would be detrimental to women.

 

[Nate13]

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A woman walking around naked in public in our culture – would not be correct. She would end up arrested. As to the “sin” – in the end – that is up to God.

As to you question on culture – maybe – that should be asked of someone – who specializes in that area. But a culture based/driven by men’s lust – would be detrimental to women.

Haha you are in the moral theology section. Saying its a “sin” is not condemning someone. I have not asked you to speak towards the woman’s culpability or blame at all. Objectively is it a sin or not? If you can’t tell me if its a sin or not and why, how can you speak with any credibility on this subject in saying what is right and wrong? You have knocked down every point I have made, so I’m trying to figure out your idea of what is right and wrong with respect to modesty.