Exsurge Domine

[KathleenGee]

Luther’s main point of issue was the practice of indulgences. Luther denied there was no apostolic succession of the deposit of faith. He appeared to not have the working of the Holy Spirit to a degree that he would find peace in present circumstances and difficulties, and thus he could not recognize the work of the Holy Spirit present in the succession of faith through time.

A very penitential person himself, it was also incongruous of him to ignore the true practice of indulgences: conversion.

So again, people may considering, may oppose, and want to correct, but he acted on his, and when the militaries of both sides were then utilized–killing each other, then Christianity began its own ‘fracking’.

 

[guanophore]

Psychotherapy is a discipline, or more it seems to me at present time, than in recent history. I don’t think you can use it, however, to past historical figures when looking at great historical events…I mean, people can share the same opinions, convictions, educational background, but not have the effect on his times as he did. So it is fair to me to further reflect on the kind of character he was that brought about such a change in Christianity.

It is important to distuinguish between “psychotherapy as a discipline” and looking at historical figures from a psychoanalytic point of view. Certainly no one can therapize an historical figure. But, it is possible to make observations about people’s attitude and conduct through the lens of psychological theory. In that sense, it is no different than looking at history through the lense of economics, art, politics, sociology, or any other discipline.

The text I used also verified that the Reformation was in motion, in spite of the Council of Florence.  So many in Germany abandoned the Catholic hierarchy, and I wonder if other military, political and economic factors also played into this.

I think they were very large factors.

practices that showed the Catholic faith’s trust in God’s mercy and the freely given grace of faith.

Yes I think the devotion and faithfulness that the people were craving are found in monastic communities such as the one that St. Teresa inhabited. Had they seen this level of devotion in the clergy the Reformation might have been avoided.

And the text’s reference to a less than balanced monastic theology in Luther’s congregation made me think that there must be others that were not quite like that of his choice…that may be would have been more of a help to him and his own personal spiritual life.

Although the Augustinians were very austere, I think that Luther was not representative of their practices either. The record shows that he went overboard even for that community. The monks had to interrupt him and restrain him.

 

[guanophore]

Which boils down to your or my opinion. Also your opinion which is based on “evidence.” I think the word evidence here is too strong of a word to use. For anything presented on this subject is highly subjective.

All human sciences struggle with being both the subject and the object of the research. However, all cultural artifacts can be valuable in terms of comprehending metabletics. Luther’s writings, along with relevant historical documents, such as papal responses to his writing, can shed light on his personality and character.

The same is true for any historical figure, Jesus not exempted.

 

[hn160]

Luther’s main point of issue was the practice of indulgences. Luther denied there was no apostolic succession of the deposit of faith. He appeared to not have the working of the Holy Spirit to a degree that he would find peace in present circumstances and difficulties, and thus he could not recognize the work of the Holy Spirit present in the succession of faith through time.

A very penitential person himself, it was also incongruous of him to ignore the true practice of indulgences: conversion.

So again, people may considering, may oppose, and want to correct, but he acted on his, and when the militaries of both sides were then utilized–killing each other, then Christianity began its own ‘fracking’.

Catholics always want to ignore the fact that the Popes at the time including Leo X and others such as the Archbishop of Manz, the indulgences were a way to pay off debts, it was a greedy transaction.

 

[Contarini]

Catholics always want to ignore the fact that the Popes at the time including Leo X and others such as the Archbishop of Manz, the indulgences were a way to pay off debts, it was a greedy transaction.

But that’s a pretty minor point, really. Luther wasn’t just objecting to the abuse. He was objecting to the basic theological principles behind the practice.

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

Simony was a great, great sin among the clergy for some time in that period.

Also, Luther – to me – was not animated by the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that is at work within the Church in spite of its humanity. That is what we as Catholics live through and recognize at work in the Church. We can have an unworthy minister provide us the full effects of the Mass…but more sanctified the minister, the more grace…

On one hand, Luther was imbalanced, and ignored the pentitential side of indulgences, while rightfully addressing the corrupt practices surrounding them. But he had not experienced God’s peace and love. On the other, the German populace was also primed for a break irregardless of Luther.

There were German Catholic movements going on that focused on genuine sanctification, but there was just too much damage, and lay movements, even headed by clerics…cannot effect reform.

Reform can only come through clerics. St. Catherine of Siena calls upon the laity to pray and do penance for the priesthood. And so if the German people were not praying and doing penance…her writings preceded Luther, and she spoke very much of God’s grace, and how we truly cannot live without God. There were other writings as well before Luther that all focused on God’s grace freely given, how Catholics living out traditional spirituality in the Church were nurtured in the true faith of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, indulgences are drawing us into the deep mysteries of God in the Church, to do as a penance and bring us closer to God. If indulgences were meant to buy one’s place in heaven, well, they never would have been established in the first place.

The text I have been reading was the one most recommended by my pastor as a beginning to study church history. I asked for one that was most objective and honest. I did not want to see the Church ecclesiastics as innocent or being excused. It was not. And my pastor is a clinical social worker who is counseling our sex abuse victims. He has spoken to us, and considered one pope with a name…my pastor has seen first hand the damage a priest, a minister of the Lord…can do to destroy another human being. And I found this pray to pray…with my own experiences in the Church and among very religious people…‘Lord, protect me from those who hide their malice with the veil of religion.’

Going through the text, what is amazing to me is just how much turmoil and upset and continual change of temporal rule, invasions and barbarians, dispute of schismatic popes, the behaviors of the Roman citizens in Italy…was how the papacy has survived and grown in prominence since then.

The Church is self-reforming. I wish we could all be one at the banquet table…

Is it a matter really of not trusting God in church authority? If so, I think people are looking too much at man, and not in Christ and the Holy Spirit, and recognizing Him in directives from our church leadership. I see that as a kind of scruple…having ongoing issues.

But no, Pope Leo never defined exactly which points Luther had, condemned the whole, but did not excommunicate him for it.

Luther and the German people were all in the same movement to separate from Roman Catholicism.

 

[hn160]

Likewise, indulgences are drawing us into the deep mysteries of God in the Church, to do as a penance and bring us closer to God. If indulgences were meant to buy one’s place in heaven, well, they never would have been established in the first place.

/QUOTE]

Where are indulgences required in Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

Catholics always want to ignore the fact that the Popes at the time including Leo X and others such as the Archbishop of Manz, the indulgences were a way to pay off debts, it was a greedy transaction.

Not at all, hn. In fact, that was one of the main issues addressed at Trent. They wanted to eliminate even the appearance of paying debts with the money, temporal, or eternal!

There have always been wolves among the sheep. Certainly Tetzel was one.

But Luther threw out the baby with the bathwater, rejecting parts of the Apostolic faith in an effort to purge out the wolves.

 

[Stepson]

Not at all, hn. In fact, that was one of the main issues addressed at Trent. They wanted to eliminate even the appearance of paying debts with the money, temporal, or eternal!

There have always been wolves among the sheep. Certainly Tetzel was one.

But Luther threw out the baby with the bathwater, rejecting parts of the Apostolic faith in an effort to purge out the wolves.

This question is just for academic purposes only. But for argument sake, lets just say that Luther was more personable but he and the Pope just could not see eye to eye. So Luther went off like he did but wanted to keep the baby. How could he have preserved the Apostolic faith? Was that the part where he rejected Bishops because it was “too Catholic?” How did the East break off and maintain the Apostolic faith?

 

[guanophore]

Likewise, indulgences are drawing us into the deep mysteries of God in the Church, to do as a penance and bring us closer to God. If indulgences were meant to buy one’s place in heaven, well, they never would have been established in the first place.

Where are indulgences required in Scripture?

This question is based upon the false premise of SS, and the thinking that emanates from it that everything pertinent to the Christian life is contained in the Scriptures.

That being said, who ever claimed an indulgence is required? There are many Christians that fail to take advantage of beneficial spiritual practices such as fasting, intercession for others, etc.

Suffering for the benefit of others, though is part of the Apsotolic divine deposit of faith to the Church.

Eph 3:13
13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

When we offer our suffering for others, it can serve to perfect both parties in the faith. This is the concept of redemptive suffereing. It is also intracately entwined with the nature of the Church, and the communion of saints. Much of this spiritual truth has been lost when the Reformers redefined the nature of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

This question is just for academic purposes only. But for argument sake, lets just say that Luther was more personable but he and the Pope just could not see eye to eye. So Luther went off like he did but wanted to keep the baby. How could he have preserved the Apostolic faith? Was that the part where he rejected Bishops because it was “too Catholic?” How did the East break off and maintain the Apostolic faith?

It is a very good question, and not just academic, either, but very practical.

The Church has always had disagreements between the brethren. We can see that Paul and Barnabas had a falling out over Mark. It is not required that all the members of the Church agree with one another over everything. We are not permitted, however, to change the once for all doctrines given to the Church by the Apsotles. The reason the East still has valid sacraments and Holy Orders is that they did not change any doctrines like the Reformers did.

He rejected structures put in place by Jesus and the Apsotles, and wanted to replace those with ideas of his own making.

 

[Stepson]

This question is based upon the false premise of SS, and the thinking that emanates from it that everything pertinent to the Christian life is contained in the Scriptures.

That being said, who ever claimed an indulgence is required? There are many Christians that fail to take advantage of beneficial spiritual practices such as fasting, intercession for others, etc.

Suffering for the benefit of others, though is part of the Apsotolic divine deposit of faith to the Church.

Eph 3:13
13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

When we offer our suffering for others, it can serve to perfect both parties in the faith. This is the concept of redemptive suffereing. It is also intracately entwined with the nature of the Church, and the communion of saints. Much of this spiritual truth has been lost when the Reformers redefined the nature of the Church.

Thank you for that post!

 

[KathleenGee]

Redemptive suffering is offered so many times by hidden souls for the conversions of sinners and atonement for sin…very powerful…leads us into greater holiness…

 

[hn160]

Redemptive suffering is offered so many times by hidden souls for the conversions of sinners and atonement for sin…very powerful…leads us into greater holiness…

I personally think that the R.C.Church would be better off to eliminate indulgences because it makes the Roman faith a works-righteousness faith. The only good thing that our works are good for is to serve our neighbor.

 

[Stepson]

I personally think that the R.C.Church would be better off to eliminate indulgences because it makes the Roman faith a works-righteousness faith. The only good thing that our works are good for is to serve our neighbor.

I would love to know what are the origins of indulgences. Another poster said they are for when you serve the Church with your time, talent or your financial ability. I assume that also means serving your neighbor. Kind of along the lines of, “What you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me.” So are the origins of indulgences a handed down tradition for the Church? Does their origins originate from when Christ tells us to store our treasures in heaven and not on the earth?

CCC 1471 says it can be gain for themselves or the dead. I would like to know how that works.

My background would also agree with you that on face value, it does hearken back to a works-righteousness faith but one thing I learned on this post is that what I was taught in private Lutheran school about Catholicism and reality do not ofter match.

 

[guanophore]

I personally think that the R.C.Church would be better off to eliminate indulgences because it makes the Roman faith a works-righteousness faith. The only good thing that our works are good for is to serve our neighbor.

I am glad you said this, hn, because it clarifies your misunderstanding of indulgences, and the relationship of works and grace. It is a very common misunderstanding about the Catholic faith.

Although it is true that our good works do serve our neighbors, they also have effects that we may never know in this life. If our separated brethren would not stop reading Eph. 2 at v. 9, the relationship might be more clear:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are obligated to walk in the good works He has created for us, even if we do not know all of their effects.

1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.

Since we know that sins are only covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus, then we must also know that walking in love, by grace, will enable us to participate in expiation of sins.

If our deeds only benefitted our neighbors in this life, why would they follow us?

Rev 14:13
3 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Rev 19:7-8
7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
8 it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure" -

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Our righteous deeds clothe us in fine linen, so that we will be ready for the wedding feast.

It is necessary to distinguish between works of the flesh, and works of the spirit. Works that emanate from His grace at work in us are part of the fruit of the Spirit.

Titus 3:8-9
I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men.

I always think about this passage in Titus when people try to say that all of our works are like “filthy rags” before God. If that were true,then how can they be excellent and profitable?

And let us not leave out the Epistle of James;

James 2:22-26
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Our works “perfect” or “complete” our faith, bringing us into sanctification. They not only serve our neighbor, but grow us in holiness at the same time.

 

[guanophore]

I would love to know what are the origins of indulgences. Another poster said they are for when you serve the Church with your time, talent or your financial ability. I assume that also means serving your neighbor. Kind of along the lines of, “What you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me.” So are the origins of indulgences a handed down tradition for the Church? Does their origins originate from when Christ tells us to store our treasures in heaven and not on the earth?

CCC 1471 says it can be gain for themselves or the dead. I would like to know how that works.

My background would also agree with you that on face value, it does hearken back to a works-righteousness faith but one thing I learned on this post is that what I was taught in private Lutheran school about Catholicism and reality do not ofter match.

Yes, it is tied to the “treasury of merit”, but that is also a later concept. Much earlier are the principles we inherited from Judaism where the actions of one member of the community could spiritually benefit others.

The principle that love covers a multitude of sins does not necessarily mean the person is immediately receptive to being loved.

1 Cor 12:25-26
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Most Christians do not have an adequate understanding of the nature of the Body. If they did, they would not persist in sins thinking that it only affects themselves.

Paul taught that suffering can benefit other members of the Body’

2 Cor 1:5-6
6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation;

 

[Stepson]

Yes, it is tied to the “treasury of merit”, but that is also a later concept. Much earlier are the principles we inherited from Judaism where the actions of one member of the community could spiritually benefit others.

The principle that love covers a multitude of sins does not necessarily mean the person is immediately receptive to being loved.

1 Cor 12:25-26
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Most Christians do not have an adequate understanding of the nature of the Body. If they did, they would not persist in sins thinking that it only affects themselves.

Paul taught that suffering can benefit other members of the Body’

2 Cor 1:5-6
6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation;

Thank you. Very intresting. What is the Church teachings about applying them to the dead?

 

[KathleenGee]

To understand indulgences, you have to believe in the action of God in the Mass. Our entire life comes from the Eucharist and the Mass, with the Sacrament of Penance. And of course, we can’t have either without the sacramental priesthood.

So our faith communities are based on the priesthood. However, without priests, grace is there, and we can make spiritual communions…like the Protestants do, but focused on the Eucharist.

There is great, great teachings of abundance on the Mass. Liturgy is my favorite study and reflection.

All the indulgences and their practices are drawn from Jesus Christ.

I was just sharing on another thread about this outstanding Catholic family in my state. I heard of their son. The mother came to speak at our Bible group. They have 8 children. She prays for every child as she folds laundry, or some other task in the day.

Her husband has been fasting and giving up a thing he likes for each child. They are beginning to realize that he not eating pizza anymore, or doing that anymore…that he is sacrificing something he likes for their sanctification. Their son is an ordained priest, lasting very briefly in two parishes here…and was brought back to Rome again…he is one of the attendants you see at events with Pope Benedict…I know who he is now, and will recognize him in the future.

But we do not realize how important redemptive suffering and penance are…won’t until we are in the next life…as says a modern saint, Faustina. Jesus said to pick up His cross and follow Him…He said in Luke to do penance lest ye likewise perish for the remission of sins…

Our inclination to sin is very real. And the more we are purified and formed in Jesus Christ, the more the kingdom of Christ is evident in this world…People don’t have to acknowledge you or know what you are doing…it is dying to self and letting Christ live through you.

So the Church, through the Holy Father, --as what Peter binds on earth is bound in heaven – provided us a structure or format through the Church to better help us focus and develop our own personal means in self-denial.

All this Luther forgot about with all his penances…the goal is Jesus Christ…and this is where his imbalance came through…but as I study more…the German populace also was going in the same direction.

The reformation had to involve the papacy and it didn’t get that far…there was reform and sanctification in parishes and some lay movements…but true reform has to be with the clergy.

Without the clergy reforming, and in this case, even the papacy, inner reform failed.

The Council of Trent turn the Church around, but it also reflected the struggle and pulls now existing side by side with a quickly fragmenting Christianity with greater animosity and condemnation against the apostolic faith.

Really, I see Luther’s greater error in denying the apostolic faith being transmitted down through generations through the Holy Spirit in the Magesterium…again his imbalance to me reflecting on a lack of cultivation of devotion to the Holy Spirit, and too much devotion to penitential practices…Again, that could reflect why he was so focused on indulgences…

 

[KathleenGee]

My take on the dead…heaven watches us with a thousand eyes…

We do not realize how even the smallest sin deforms us…only God can forgive sin…

If we accept all our crosses Christ gives us in love—not bitterness, etc…and attend to our daily duties every day and live out the gospel in them.—a priest affirmed with me that we will go straight to heaven…

St. Paul speaks of the purging fire…the nuns told us in school that spiritual fire is most painful…there are degrees of purgatory…and we put ourselves where we belong, not God.

In purgatory the great grace, no matter how what state you are in there…the great grace is that you see God face to face…your great consolation. Our prayers and penance alleviate their spiritual suffering…we take on what they denied themselves in this life seeking only comfort and pleasure of this world.

As Christ says, the kingdom is the Pearl of Great Price…it is to be protected…and drawn from…but Christians many times chose the world and its allurements.

But to give perspective and balance…the Lord wants cheerful and generous souls, not long faces promoting their penances…today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad.

My pastor was on the cranky side, but had a child’s heart…very open book. But after he died, we found out things he did…he had his own hidden life and he passed away on a day special to him…another good priest died while saying the Mass…