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rcwitness
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There is no doubt that when the Church saw, by faith, a need to fix a Canon, there were various opinions over certain books. This was even a reason to make a proper judgment concerning what is Scripture. But once the Church decided, it became less faith guided to dispute, but private opinions, and heterox do at that.
That’s good
Well, one more doesn’t mean “better”.
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adf417
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Understanding your personal position on the canonisiticy of the 73 or 74 books of the western canon, do you believe there is no authoritative voice within Christianity at all given times that a 66 book canon is absolutely not the complete written word of God?
Peace!!!
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adf417
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rcwitness
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Looks interesting…
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rcwitness
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You’re right! I forgot about that crafty side of Jon!Amen! But im sure Jon didn’t mean it that way!
Peace!!!
The Prayer Of Manasseh is wonderful, and is part of the canon in parts of the Church. You see, that’s the problem. You say, “but once the Church decided…”, but the whole Church hasn’t decided.
Jon
I think there are communions that hold to a 66 book canon, and in their by, it is an authoritative position, and there are communions that hold a 73 or larger. " Authoritative" holds different meanings in different communions, and those who hold a 66 book can point to specific reasons, and historical evidence, including a Church Fathers for their views
Jon
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rcwitness
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What constitutes “the whole Church deciding”?
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adf417
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It seems you are content with the position that the church, as broken as she is, will have to mend its ways on its own before the Holy Spirit will resume its guiding of us, at least in terms of the canon, no?
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. He didn’t say the Holy Spirit would suggest what truth is and allow us to falter. He certainly knew we would fail when given a chance otherwise instead of needing Him to forgive our sins He would have said “don’t come to me when you sin anymore, I have told you enough times not to fall into sin and now you are on your own”.
Isn’t to believe the HS is not being listened to by the church is the same thing as saying the gates of hell have prevailed?
Peace!!!
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Techno2000
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“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”
2 Machabees, Chapter 12. Verse 46:
that they may be loosed from sins.”
2 Machabees, Chapter 12. Verse 46:
The whole Church, even if one wants to exclude “protestants”, still includes the EO, and other communions with what even the Catholic Church recognizes as valid bishops.
Jon
Not sure where you got this. His guidance is ongoing, not static in the past.
Not sure if you think I thought otherwise, but I absolutely agree…Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. He didn’t say the Holy Spirit would suggest what truth is and allow us to falter. He certainly knew we would fail when given a chance otherwise instead of needing Him to forgive our sins He would have said “don’t come to me when you sin anymore, I have told you enough times not to fall into sin and now you are on your own”.
No, to be honest. For the gates of Hell to prevail over the Church, the Church Triumphant would be prevailed over, also.
It isn’t so much that we don’t listen to His Church, but that the Church Militant is made of men, and men misunderstand, through a glass darkly, etc. That is why we have a variety of canons with His Holy Church.
And also with you.
Jon
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rcwitness
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Those Churches don’t believe that Hippo and Carthage were authoritive?
Amen. There’s nothing wrong with praying for the dead.“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”
2 Machabees, Chapter 12. Verse 46:
But even regarding those who oppose the practice, that only explains 2 Macc. There are six other books in the DC’s, and none of them, as I recall, speak of prayer for the dead.
Jon
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MichaelP3
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I don’t buy the Catholic stance on this “proof”. They all committed idolatry and would have died in a state of mortal sin.“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”
2 Machabees, Chapter 12. Verse 46:
I had the argumant against me once that the Church wasn’t established yet and thus the mortal sin part wasn’t relevant. Still don’t buy it, as the sin of idolatry comes from the 10 commandments in exodus.
Nah, scripture doesn’t prove any of that even if you believe in the Apocrypha.
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adf417
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Sorry i am not clear on communicating my thoughts. Im sure someone else could do a much better job.
Where im going with this is for the Church Militant to be stagnant, as you have implyed in the assumption that having different canons constitutes at least some in the Church are not listening, would mean the HS is a poor leader. If all good leaders accomplish their goal how much more will the HS accomplish what He set out to do?
Other than shear faith do you have other proof the gates of hell have not prevailed over the Church Triumphant?
Your faith tells you it hasn’t. Why do you believe the the HS has not already done what he set out to do, in terms of the canon, even within the Church Militant?Peace as always!!!
I think I’m the one not being clear. Sorry.=adf417;14215514]Sorry i am not clear on communicating my thoughts. Im sure someone else could do a much better job.
No. I don’t think the Church is stagnant. A great example is the post Vat II dialogues. These dialogues are evidence of the Church Militant listening to the call that we all be one.
One could also see within some Lutheran circles in America a return to the use of the DC books. To the contrary, I think the Spirit’s movement within the Church is obvious.
He will accomplish His goal. You and I are in different communions within His Church. The day will come when you and I will celebrate the King on His throne together.
Oh, there is no doubt that the canon exists, and it may likely be in a form already recognized. Consider that the NT is almost universally accepted, and the OT possesses 29 universally agreed upon. The 7 books of known in the west as deutero-canon is recognized by Rome, the EO, some Anglicans, and in Lutheranism they are seen as good for reading and study. The Eastern canon includes even more books, but the point is one of these configurations is likely it. In the meantime, we can joyfully celebrate that which we agree upon, and prayerfully seek guidance together on what we don’t.Other than shear faith do you have other proof the gates of hell have not prevailed over the Church Triumphant?
Jon
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Techno2000
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One can die in a state of mortal sin and still be saved by purgatory.
The Catechism of St. Pope Pius X :
Q. What are the effects of Extreme Unction?
A. The sacrament of Extreme Unction produces the following effects: (1) It increases sanctifying grace; (2) It remits venial sins, and also mortal sins which the sick person, if contrite, is unable to confess; (3) It takes away weakness and sloth which remain even After pardon has been obtained; (4) It gives strength to bear illness patiently, to withstand temptation and to die holily; (5) It aids in restoring us to health of body if it is for the good of the soul.
The Baltimore Catechism :
Q. 970. Will Extreme Unction take away mortal sin if the dying person is no longer able to confess?
A. Extreme Unction will take away mortal sin if the dying person is no longer able to confess,
provided he has the sorrow for his sins that would be necessary for the worthy reception of the Sacrament of Penance.
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