Extra Ecclesiam Non Est Salus

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TNT said:
Oops, never mind, I read yur sig:( :
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            Yes, I am a...**BLOOD BOUGHT**, spirit taught, Bible totin', Scripture quotin', Christ Followin', Born Again, ***Charismatic Catholic*** Christian Believer.
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Respectfully, there are those who can identify themselves as such who actually are concerned and upset by the abuses in liturgy.

It may even be a misnomer for me to identify myself as such since there is actually no Catholic Church I can attend in my area that is actually Charismatic. When I hear of some of the problems in those churches, I sometimes wonder how long I would continue to identify myself as such if I could regularly attend a Catholic Charasmatic Mass.

But there are those who call themselves Charasmatic who don’t go reaching for the hands of strangers (or even the hands of those one knows but are not close to outside of a Mass setting), or crossing the aisles to hold hands during the Our Father;) Maybe I am the first one you have met, but I pray I am not unique in this respect.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
FYI - I read back over the rules and while rudeness, name-calling and other forms of snarkality should be avoided, it is not a pro-traditional forum, but open to all discussion, pro and con, or traditionalist issues. I am to blame fo taking this down a somewhat snarky road earlier, which I regret. On the other hand, there is no reason why legitimare criticism of any group needs to be viewed as an attack, or, in my case worded snarkily.

I have already learned a lot on this thread from TNT.

Especially the word “snark”.😃
 
pnewton said:
…On the other hand, there is no reason why legitimare criticism of any group needs to be viewed as an attack, or, in my case worded snarkily.
…
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There most certainly is
…

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Catholig said:
As I understand it the above is no longer official church teaching, and have commented on that else where, but need help understanding the new teaching. How can people get to heaven without the benefit of the sacraments? Without confession, which is necessary by canon law unless you have, a perfect contrition. Please provide sources.

Catholig
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Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is official Church teaching and it’s meaning has been expounded upon by more than one Roman Pontiff.

See the Letter of the Holy Office approved and promulgated by Pius XII, and quoted by Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, here.

See also the General Audience address from John Paul II, here.

Here’s an excerpt of the latter:
Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus"–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14).
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For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.
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In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, cooperation, a yes to the divine gift. This acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine ecclesia nulla salus–“without the Church there is no salvation.” Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.
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Love ya DAVE!
As if we were all newbies.
I know PPXII put his explicit approval on that letter. I just never could find it.
Now that would help.
But what would really clinch it is a few names of those who succeeded in this method of salvation in the last say 500 yrs. Giving them sainthood would really lock it in.
 
Just a question:
Re:
For those, …who have not received the Gospel proclamation, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, …It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because** they do not know the Church** and sometimes even outwardly reject her. …
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How, exactly does one NOT receive the Gospel message but **outwardly reject her?
**How do reject that which you are unaware of?
Finally,
the most frequent word in this letter is MYSTERIOUS as in we have no clue.

Just a thought.
 
I think this is excellent without all the clueless “mysteries” (which is very unlike a PPXII discourse).
Ven. Pope Pius IX, from the Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur moerore,” to the bishops of Italy, August 10, 1863.

And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate them selves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of PETER, to whom “the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior [Council of Chalcedon, 451 A. D.],” cannot obtain eternal salvation.
But God forbid that the sons of the Catholic Church ever in any way be hostile to those who are not joined with us in the same bonds of faith and love; but rather they should always be zealous to seek them out and aid them, whether poor, or sick, or afflicted with any other burdens, with all the offices of Christian charity; and they should especially endevor to snatch them from the darkness of error in which they unhappily lie, and lead them back to Catholic truth and to the most loving Mother the Church, who never ceases to stretch out her maternal hands lovingly to them, and to call them back to her bosom so that, established and firm in faith, hope, and charity, and “being fruitful in every good work” [Colossians 1:10], they may attain eternal salvation.
 
TNT said:
Just a question:
Re:
How, exactly does one NOT receive the Gospel message but **outwardly reject her?
**How do reject that which you are unaware of?
Finally,
the most frequent word in this letter is MYSTERIOUS as in we have no clue.

Just a thought.
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TNT,

Mystery is not “cluelessness.” I figure you know that but think you might have exaggerated a bit to make your point.

St. Thomas Aquinas taught that sins must be voluntary or else they are not culpable. One can subjectively have impediments to the will and intellect which diminish or remove culpability, impediments which we simply do not understand…but God does. That’s what the “mystery” is about. For instance, Saul explicitly rejected Christianity, but he “obtained…mercy…because [he] did it ignorantly.” (1 Tim 1:13). Thus, St. Thomas taught “whatever is a reason for sin to be forgiven, diminishes sin.” (ST, IIa, 76, 4)

I’ve found many Catholics cringe at the word “mystery” as it seems that was the word the nuns used when they didn’t know the answer to the question that was being asked of them in Catholic schools. However, let me give you a comparison so that you may not be so easily put off by the word ‘mystery.’

I studied science in college, and received a degree in electrical engineering. I also did post-graduate work in computer engineering and artificial intelligence. I went on to work as a missile system engineer and spacecraft engineer for many years. Although I never went on to get my PhD in science, I do think I know enough about science to say with confidence, that even within God’s natural revelation, there is much “mystery.” As much as we think we understand God’s natural revelation through “advances” of modern science, the more one studies science the more one encounters the mysteries of nature which seem ever-more inexplicable.

It is my opinion that God was purposefully ambiguous in his natural revelation. Why? He wanted mystery so as to allow for faith. Moreover, without mystery, man would stop seeking to understand. We seem to be drawn toward trying to understand the truth because it is mysterious. That’s why science and theology are interesting to me.

Yet, the gift of understanding is not equal in everyone. Some things may seem more mysterious to some people which are less mysterious to others. For instance, algebra is a mystery to my wife, but not to me. For me, the underlying cause of light having both wave characteristics and particle characteristics is still a mystery. God’s natural revelation is full of mystery, and this according to His providence.

How about God’s supernatural revelation? Why should it be exempt from ‘mystery?’ Just like His natural revelation, it is inerrant. Nobody in their right mind claims that “lightning” is erroneous, right? If scientists can’t quite understand something in God’s natural revelation, they don’t blame nature, do they? Even atheists start with the premise that “nature” is true, without error. When science formulates a postulate about nature, they understand that it may be erroreous. However, that error resides in our understanding of God natural revelation, not in the revelation itself. Likewise, God’s supernatural revelation is true, without any error. Do we perfectly understand God’s revelation, natural or supernatural? No. That is because it is mysterious. It is not that we just don’t understand “algebra” for instance, when we may indeed have the capacity to do so. I suspect some things in God’s revelation, both natural and supernatural, are beyond man’s capacity to understand and will forever remain mysterious to man, but not to God.

We ought to be able to accept that “mystery” is part of the revelation of God without having any anxiety whatsoever over it.

It seems for some, the proximate norm of Christian doctrine is understanding. That’s how I used to think in my dissenting years. However, I came to realize that in truth, the proximate norm of Christian doctrine is authority, not understanding. Thus, with regard to “no salvation outside the Church”, or any other doctrine of Christianity, I believe that which is promulgated by Divine and Catholic authority vested in the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him.
 
  1. There is no such thing as a right to eternal happiness.
  2. Natural birth gives no supernatural rights.
  3. Unless a man be born, of *water * and the HS, he shall not enter the kingdom.
I see little mystery in any of this, so far.

This is why we baptize infants asap.
They have no implied anything, no mystery of conduct, no righteous natural law to follow…nothing.

This idea that salvation is available without water baptism, but by man’s conduct & conscience, is really an injustice to all the infants of the world who have no access to this special form of mysterious salvation.

The LG document has a letter 1900 yrs after the deposit of faith from the Apostles. It references no apostolic witness for its claims, so the only thing left is “mysteriousness”.

No salvation outside the church (assumes sacramental baptism to enter it) is THE keystone arch of the Catholic religion… love it or hate it. In fact, the historical understanding of this was the primary source of the world’s hatred for her.

Once you pull that down or dilute it, the whole edifice of dogma is subject to falling in on itself from authority to missionary zeal.
It starts with explicit desired baptism- the catecumen who drops dead. Then it moves on to the baptised heretic/schismatic- the EO, the protestant of any flavor. Then it moves on to “Implied” desire baptism…so the heathen, the atheist can join in salvation. Just be a good person then takes over.
“be a good jew” “be a good muslim” “be a good animist” “be good nothing” etc.

Finally, the the idea of universal salvation takes hold and, and why not?
I need not give all the examples of this, they are manifold since 1952.
“Catholics” believe that Billy Graham is goin to heaven while rejecting the Catholic faith. Read the Billy Graham post-in-progress.

That’s where we’ve come to.

I haven’t said that those who do not enter the Kingdom are absolutely sent to “torment” because PPIX said that torment outside the kingdom is for unrepentant sinning only.

If we see that hell is not a 1 dimensional abode of torment, it gives us better view of “outside the kingdom”.

No, mystery in the sense I mentioned is probably not so clueless as it is intended to pass over internal contradiction of a novel belief on its way to universal salvation which has arrived as you know in theory by some celebrated folks like Hans von B. Who essentially was rewarded for it.

Without the EENS dogma unreformulated so as to make it next to meaningless, the Catholic religion is a preference, not a necessity for all. “Fullness of the truth” is the current mantra. What that really means is that we want people to arrive at the kingdom in a Rolls Royce of knowledge instead of arriving at the same destination in the Kia of ignorance.
But in either case they will arrive.
And in that destination knowledge will be full for all anyway.

Finally, as I posted earlier, God’s Providence & the true mystery of pre-destination & foreknowledge allows God to save who he will.
But that does not give us a free pass to anyone outside the Church of Christ, as that is God’s Only revelation to us, which is what is happening…we propose a mystery then proceed to profess how it works without any permission to do so from the Dep. of Faith.
 
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