Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Protestants

[Gorgias]

Of course we’d have to first understand what the difference even is in your question.

Anyone outside the church: Have they heard the gospel? Through no fault of their own are they ignorant of it? Are they seeking God?

A Catholic outside the church: He’d be lost because he’s heard the gospel and has decided to reject it.

Hey, it’s your claim; if you can’t say that you can fully identify the distinction – between (as it were) just ‘anyone’ and ‘a Catholic’ – then it seems that it will be problematic for you to prove (or even defend!) your assertion that “one outside the church is lost”!

Certainly, we’ll be able to agree that “some outside the church are lost” – but if you’re making the stronger claim, then you’ll need to be more precise, don’t you think?

However, yes, will do but it’s going to have to wait till tomorrow morning. It’s almost 11 pm here.

Sounds good… we’ll pick it up tomorrow!

Blessings,
G.

 

[Peter_J]

The Catholic church no longer believes this and it makes no sense if you think of it.

I have to take issue with this because of the words “no longer”. The Catholic Church never did believe that. (Granted, *people *did.)

Did you check out catholic.com?

Oh yes. It would be pretty hard not to, when so many amateur apologists (Catholic and otherwise) refer to it.

 

[josie_L]

…

Funny!

 

[Thorolfr]

The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms.

What does it mean to “innocently” not embrace Catholicism? What if someone has heard all the arguments put forward by the Catholic Church about why someone should be Catholic and is still not convinced by those arguments? Would such a person be “knowingly and willingly” choosing to reject the Catholic Church?

 

[guanophore]

I find it interesting how different experts translate church teachings. It’s no wonder there is so much differing opinion of these threads.

I mean, just logically speaking, do you really believe every protestant is going to hell?

Of course not, but what I believe is equally irrelevant. The Church does not teach that.

I really dislike the CCC for how it’s set up and how it’s written, but anyway, it’s one of the only authoratative books we have to use. Read CCC no. 818 and 819. And, of course and I know it only too well, you’re going to find something that says the opposite. It’s too much.

I guess if one thinks in black and white, it could seem opposite, but it is not. One need not be a visible member of the Church to be in right relationship with Christ.

**

Pope Benedict wrote on this but I can’t remember where. I remember thinking how much the church has changed in the past 50 years. I tried finding it on the net and cannot. He did what Pope Francis does at times. Makes a statement, then retracts it. I’m pretty tired of this since I teach in the church and have to be careful about what I say and many times I find conflicting statement and also different ways different priests understand things.**

It is especially challenging for catechists, I agree. I was the victim of some very poor catechesis myself. But the Church is not at liberty to change the teachings of Jesus, who taught that there are members of His flock that are not visible to those who have inherited the visible kingdom.

**

frangiuliano115:
For instance, what is The Body of Christ? Do only Catholics belong to it? Do only baptized persons belong to it? I’m not getting into this - just something to think about.**

It is true that it is off topic in this thread. They are good questions to ponder, though. All who are members of Christ are also members of His One Body, the Church, even those who have not met Him or know what a Church is. Even baptized persons can abandon their birthright and become dead weight in the Body. Only Jesus knows those who are His, whether they are invincibly ignorant pagans or Protestants.

**

frangiuliano115:
I sometimes think we make things toooo complicated!

Fran**

This is certainly true.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Are you sure about that? I mean… really sure?

I mean… there’s a world of difference between “one outside the church is totally lost” and “a Catholic outside the church is totally lost.” Can you show us any quotes from Aquinas and Augustine that say the former, rather than simply the latter?

The Church believes what it has always believed. However, some would interpret what the Church said in ages past as if it said things that it really never attempted to say. Context and audience are critically important in this analysis; if one ignores one of these or both… then they start claiming things that the Church has never claimed. :sad_yes:

Yes. I’m sure that Augustine said that anyone outside the church is lost.
This does not mean I agree with this and this is not the reason I am posting - I’m pasting some of Augustine’s statements because you requested this - not because I agree with.

And yes, the church no longer holds this to be true. What the church teaches now is that one from a different church does not have the FULLNESS of the faith, but they are not lost. Check CCC no. 1271. Also 817 and 818. No. 836 is also interesting. I mean, it’s pretty accepted different priests have done homilies on this.

Here are some quotes from Augustine:

No one reaches the heavenly Jerusalem except him who is on the way, although not everyone on the way shall reach it. To be a Catholic Christian is to be on the road and walking in the way. And if through some snare of the enemy, he be led astray from the Catholic Church, either into heresy or whatever other kind of superstition, he has already lost the way and returned to wandering.
St. Augustine

Because we fight for the unity of the Church, let us not concede to heretics what we know to be false, but let us rather teach them that they cannot attain salvation unless they come unto that same unity.
St. Augustine

There is no salvation outside the Church.
St. Augustine

A nd outside the Church, nothing is loosed … The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed.
St. Augustine

Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church — however much he believes that he is living praiseworthily — will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ.
St. Augustine

If you are not in the Body, you are not under the Head … He who does not have Christ for a Head cannot be saved; and he who does not belong to the Body of Christ, that is, to the Church of Christ, does not have Christ for his head … The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ; the Holy Ghost gives life to no one who is outside His Body.
St. Augustine

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hey, it’s your claim; if you can’t say that you can fully identify the distinction – between (as it were) just ‘anyone’ and ‘a Catholic’ – then it seems that it will be problematic for you to prove (or even defend!) your assertion that “one outside the church is lost”!

Certainly, we’ll be able to agree that “some outside the church are lost” – but if you’re making the stronger claim, then you’ll need to be more precise, don’t you think?

Sounds good… we’ll pick it up tomorrow!

Blessings,
G.

It’s MY claim?? You brought up the whole question.

WHAT is my claim?

I’m somewhat confused…

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have to take issue with this because of the words “no longer”. The Catholic Church never did believe that. (Granted, *people *did.)

Oh yes. It would be pretty hard not to, when so many amateur apologists (Catholic and otherwise) refer to it.

When I was growing up in the Catholic church, it was taught that people outside the church were lost. Now, this could be because we were all more ignorant back then. But it can’t be denied that this was taught.

I don’t use websites so I’m sorry I even replied to your post re catholic.com.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Of course not, but what I believe is equally irrelevant. The Church does not teach that.

I guess if one thinks in black and white, it could seem opposite, but it is not. One need not be a visible member of the Church to be in right relationship with Christ.

**

It is especially challenging for catechists, I agree. I was the victim of some very poor catechesis myself. But the Church is not at liberty to change the teachings of Jesus, who taught that there are members of His flock that are not visible to those who have inherited the visible kingdom.

**

It is true that it is off topic in this thread. They are good questions to ponder, though. All who are members of Christ are also members of His One Body, the Church, even those who have not met Him or know what a Church is. Even baptized persons can abandon their birthright and become dead weight in the Body. Only Jesus knows those who are His, whether they are invincibly ignorant pagans or Protestants.

**

This is certainly true.******

I’m with you, brother!

You won’t get any argument from me. I agree with you 100%.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

When I was growing up in the Catholic church, it was taught that people outside the church were lost. Now, this could be because we were all more ignorant back then. But it can’t be denied that this was taught.

And is still taught. The teachings of Jesus cannot be changed.

**

frangiuliano115:
I don’t use websites so I’m sorry I even replied to your post re catholic.com.

Fran**

Newsflash, Fran, you are using a website right now! The fora are part of the catholic.com website, and here is another good spot on the sight for this topic:

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

 

[frangiuliano115]

And is still taught. The teachings of Jesus cannot be changed.

**

Newsflash, Fran, you are using a website right now! The fora are part of the catholic.com website, and here is another good spot on the sight for this topic:

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church**

I meant websites to learn about religion. I think it’s silly. You could use them to clarify something, or maybe get a name you can’t remember - I used a site this morning to get Augustine’s quotes - but you can’t use the web for learning christian CONCEPTS.

Regarding your first paragraph. Gosh. You must go to a sanctuary (from the initials after your name). I go to one too. Could you specifically ask this question to one of the brothers, please?

I mean, you really think everybody outside the Catholic church is damned??

Could you explain, then, the CCC no. 818?

Fran

 

[Gorgias]

Yes. I’m sure that Augustine said that anyone outside the church is lost.

Not quite.

And yes, the church no longer holds this to be true. What the church teaches now is that one from a different church does not have the FULLNESS of the faith, but they are not lost. Check CCC no. 1271. Also 817 and 818. No. 836 is also interesting. I mean, it’s pretty accepted different priests have done homilies on this.

You’re misconstruing the context. But, first… let’s get to those quotes from Augustine that you claim say that “anyone outside the church is lost”:

No one reaches the heavenly Jerusalem except him who is on the way, although not everyone on the way shall reach it. To be a Catholic Christian is to be on the road and walking in the way. And if through some snare of the enemy, he be led astray from the Catholic Church, either into heresy or whatever other kind of superstition, he has already lost the way and returned to wandering.

This only states that Catholics who succumb to heresy have ‘lost the way’. It does not state that anyone outside the Church is lost.

Because we fight for the unity of the Church, let us not concede to heretics what we know to be false, but let us rather teach them that they cannot attain salvation unless they come unto that same unity.

Heretics were previously members of the Church. Again, we’re talking about those who had been in the Church and are no longer.

There is no salvation outside the Church.

And, yet again, this speaks about salvation, not people, ‘outside the Church’.

Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church — however much he believes that he is living praiseworthily — will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ.

In this tract from Catholic Answers, the quote you cited above is included as an example of the teaching that those outside the Church may be saved, but that heretics who leave the Church endanger their salvation. Again – not an example of “anyone outside the Church is lost.”

Now we get to the good quotes. Would you please identify where these come from? I’d like to be able to identify their contexts:

And outside the Church, nothing is loosed … The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed.

If you are not in the Body, you are not under the Head … He who does not have Christ for a Head cannot be saved; and he who does not belong to the Body of Christ, that is, to the Church of Christ, does not have Christ for his head … The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ; the Holy Ghost gives life to no one who is outside His Body.

Thanks!

 

[Peter_J]

Yes. I’m sure that Augustine said that anyone outside the church is lost.
This does not mean I agree with this and this is not the reason I am posting - I’m pasting some of Augustine’s statements because you requested this - not because I agree with.

And yes, the church no longer holds this to be true. What the church teaches now is that one from a different church does not have the FULLNESS of the faith, but they are not lost. Check CCC no. 1271. Also 817 and 818. No. 836 is also interesting. I mean, it’s pretty accepted different priests have done homilies on this.

Here are some quotes from Augustine:

No one reaches the heavenly Jerusalem except him who is on the way, although not everyone on the way shall reach it. To be a Catholic Christian is to be on the road and walking in the way. And if through some snare of the enemy, he be led astray from the Catholic Church, either into heresy or whatever other kind of superstition, he has already lost the way and returned to wandering.
St. Augustine

Because we fight for the unity of the Church, let us not concede to heretics what we know to be false, but let us rather teach them that they cannot attain salvation unless they come unto that same unity.
St. Augustine

There is no salvation outside the Church.
St. Augustine

A nd outside the Church, nothing is loosed … The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed.
St. Augustine

Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church — however much he believes that he is living praiseworthily — will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ.
St. Augustine

If you are not in the Body, you are not under the Head … He who does not have Christ for a Head cannot be saved; and he who does not belong to the Body of Christ, that is, to the Church of Christ, does not have Christ for his head … The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ; the Holy Ghost gives life to no one who is outside His Body.
St. Augustine

Fran

Hi again. I’m somewhat reluctant to step into the discussion of Augustine, but I feel I need to ask this: did he ever define the Catholic Church to mean ICWR (in communion with Rome)?

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t use websites

Cool. I should probably use them less but … well, there’s a lot of peer-pressure involved.

 

[Gorgias]

And outside the Church, nothing is loosed … The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed.

I’m hoping you’ll be able to give me the citation for this quote; I’m having a hard time finding it in the form that you’ve given. The closest I’ve found so far is from Augustine’s “On Grace and Free Will”, chapter 25, in which he’s discussing the Christian notion of ‘grace’ against the Pelagian heresy. I’ve underlined the phrase that looks like the quote you cited:

the Pelagians have been bold enough to aver, that grace is the nature in which we were created, so as to possess a rational mind, by which we are enabled to understand—formed as we are in the image of God, so as to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creeps upon the earth. This, however, is not the grace which the apostle commends to us through the faith of Jesus Christ. For it is certain that we possess this nature in common with ungodly men and unbelievers; whereas the grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to them to whom the faith itself appertains. For all men have not faith. (2 Thessalonians 3:2) Now, as the apostle, with perfect truth, says to those who by wishing to be justified by the law have fallen from grace, If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain; (Galatians 2:21) so likewise, to those who think that the grace which he commends and faith in Christ receives, is nature, the same language is with the same degree of truth applicable: if righteousness come from nature, then Christ is dead in vain

However, I’m not finding the part about “outside the Church, nothing is loosed.” But, if this is your quote, then we see that it has nothing to do with the point you’re trying to make: rather, Augustine is simply defending against the claim that all humans inherently have the ‘grace’ that the Church says comes from faith in Christ. It makes no claims about ‘anyone’ being lost.

In searching for this quotation, I’ve found a few places that cut & paste exactly as you have; there, likewise, there’s no citation of the particular text that’s being referenced. Nor can I find “outside the Church, nothing is loosed”.

However, I think I’ve found where you copied the quotes from – the website there has the same typo that you copied & pasted. Notice the context of that quote, however: the point being discussed isn’t salvation, but the authority to bind and loose, which is given to Peter and the Church. If we’re talking about the ability to absolve from sin, then your point is well-taken. However, the context of that quote (wherever it comes from!) is not “anyone outside the Church is lost.”

 

[frangiuliano115]

Not quite.

You’re misconstruing the context. But, first… let’s get to those quotes from Augustine that you claim say that “anyone outside the church is lost”:

This only states that Catholics who succumb to heresy have ‘lost the way’. It does not state that anyone outside the Church is lost.

Heretics were previously members of the Church. Again, we’re talking about those who had been in the Church and are no longer.

And, yet again, this speaks about salvation, not people, ‘outside the Church’.

In this tract from Catholic Answers, the quote you cited above is included as an example of the teaching that those outside the Church may be saved, but that heretics who leave the Church endanger their salvation. Again – not an example of “anyone outside the Church is lost.”

Now we get to the good quotes. Would you please identify where these come from? I’d like to be able to identify their contexts:

Thanks!

You’re asking me to prove something I don’t even believe in, as I stated in my post to Gorgias.

Google Augustine and salvation outside the church.

I can’t say how much I’m not interested in all this –

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi again. I’m somewhat reluctant to step into the discussion of Augustine, but I feel I need to ask this: did he ever define the Catholic Church to mean ICWR (in communion with Rome)?

Peter J,

You don’t know me, I can tell.

Let me say this:

I could care less what Augustine said.

I’m more interested in what Jesus said.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Not quite.

You’re misconstruing the context. But, first… let’s get to those quotes from Augustine that you claim say that “anyone outside the church is lost”:

This only states that Catholics who succumb to heresy have ‘lost the way’. It does not state that anyone outside the Church is lost.

Heretics were previously members of the Church. Again, we’re talking about those who had been in the Church and are no longer.

And, yet again, this speaks about salvation, not people, ‘outside the Church’.

In this tract from Catholic Answers, the quote you cited above is included as an example of the teaching that those outside the Church may be saved, but that heretics who leave the Church endanger their salvation. Again – not an example of “anyone outside the Church is lost.”

Now we get to the good quotes. Would you please identify where these come from? I’d like to be able to identify their contexts:

Thanks!

You’re asking me to prove something I don’t even believe in, as I stated in my post back when you asked me for quotes.

Google Augustine and salvation outside the church.

What difference does it all make???

I can’t say how much I’m not interested in all this –

Fran

 

[Aslan10]

What does it mean to “innocently” not embrace Catholicism? What if someone has heard all the arguments put forward by the Catholic Church about why someone should be Catholic and is still not convinced by those arguments? Would such a person be “knowingly and willingly” choosing to reject the Catholic Church?

I would love for someone to address this as well…

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J,

You don’t know me, I can tell.

Let me say this:

I could care less what Augustine said.

I’m more interested in what Jesus said.

Fran

Oh I C.