Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Protestants

[guanophore]

:)  I meant websites to learn about religion.  I think it's silly.  You could use them to clarify something, or maybe get a name you can't remember - I used a site this morning to get Augustine's quotes -** but you can't use the web for learning christian CONCEPTS**.

I am very glad this last statement is not true for me. I have learned more here on CAF than I learned in 15 years of catechism and Catholic school!

Fortunately my archdiocese does not believe that either, and allows catechists to get their faith formation on the web at vlcff.udayton.edu/

Lots of great Christian CONCEPTS to be learned there!

If you think it is “silly” to learn about your faith online, why are you at CAF?

 Regarding your first paragraph.  Gosh.  You must go to a sanctuary (from the initials after your name).  I go to one too.  Could you specifically ask this question to one of the brothers,  please?

The brothers clearly teach that there is no salvation outside the CC. Jesus only has ONE BODY, and all who are in Him are members of HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

I mean, you really think everybody outside the Catholic church is damned??

Could you explain, then, the CCC no. 818?

Fran

There is only salvation in Christ, and no one can get to heaven without HIm, therefore, all who are saved are joined to HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

I mean, you really think everybody outside the Catholic church is damned??

Fran

There is only salvation in Christ, and no one can get to heaven without HIm, therefore, all who are saved are joined to HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

Could you explain, then, the CCC no. 818?

Fran

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

It seems self explanatory to me. Modern Protestants are not to be charged with the sin of apostasy committed by their spiritual ancestors.

 

[guanophore]

What difference does it all make???

I can’t say how much I’m not interested in all this –

Fran

It seems that you are doing a lot of backpedalling right now. You made this assertion:

Yes. I’m sure that Augustine said that anyone outside the church is lost.

You were asked to support your claim, which you cannot. Now you are saying that you are asked to defend a position not belonging to you? So it seems that you are not quite so sure as you indicated what Augustine said?

And yes, the church no longer holds this to be true.

Here you have made another unsupportable inaccurate assertion.

. I mean, it’s pretty accepted different priests have done homilies on this.

Perhaps you have accepted the error purported by “different priests” that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus has changed, but I assure you, no amount of wayward homilies can change the Teachings of Jesus.

You are certainly a puzzle. You have joined a thread on the topic of EENS and now you are saying you have no interest in the topic, and yet you are posting quotes from Augustine to support a position with which you claim to disagree. :whacky:

 

[guanophore]

I’m somewhat confused…

indubitably

 

[frangiuliano115]

Oh I C.

I apologize for my curt answer. The reason I was upset is because someone asked me to post something I had said about Augustine’s belief that persons outside the catholic church could not be saved.

I knew I was getting myself into trouble when I adhered to the request, that’s the only reason I posted the statements which came off the net, who remembers where or do I even care? I was even asked where I got them from - thus requiring additoinal support for a doctrine I don’t even BELIEVE!

Hope you understand. I don’t even remember who asked what and I don’t have a lot of time to go back and check - it might even have been YOU! No matter.

Let me state clearly for the readers, Persons Outside the Catholic Church Can Be Saved.

I will not debate such a fundamental principle. Priests are available for information. I cannot do more than quote the CCC (no. 818 and 1271).

Peace
Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I am very glad this last statement is not true for me. I have learned more here on CAF than I learned in 15 years of catechism and Catholic school!

Fortunately my archdiocese does not believe that either, and allows catechists to get their faith formation on the web at vlcff.udayton.edu/

Lots of great Christian CONCEPTS to be learned there!

If you think it is “silly” to learn about your faith online, why are you at CAF?

The brothers clearly teach that there is no salvation outside the CC. Jesus only has ONE BODY, and all who are in Him are members of HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

There is only salvation in Christ, and no one can get to heaven without HIm, therefore, all who are saved are joined to HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

There is only salvation in Christ, and no one can get to heaven without HIm, therefore, all who are saved are joined to HIS ONE BODY, the Church.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

It seems self explanatory to me. Modern Protestants are not to be charged with the sin of apostasy committed by their spiritual ancestors.

I see you’ve been capitalizing the word Church. Okay. We could agree that all who are in the Church are saved. I’m just hoping you really understand the difference bwetween church and Church.

It doesn’t seem like it though because you contradict yourself. First you tell me the brothers say that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Then you agree with no. 818. So Which Is It? Are they saved or not??? You might want to check out 1271 too. Let the brothers also explain that one to you. And BTW, tell them my brothers don’t agree with them. Now aint’ that interesting??

Then you say there is only salvation in Christ. Okay. Now we’re getting somewhere. So you think Christ is only in the catholic church?

Some clarity guanophore - you confuse me.

I insist that you cannot learn about your faith from the internet or from CAF, generally speaking. How do you know who to trust? Can you trust me? How do you know who’s right when a debate is going on? We all sound so reasonable and right ! How do you know what to look up on the net? Hmmm. If you’re looking it up, it must mean you already know it exists. I can’t google something I don’t know about.

As to why I’m here:

I taught catechism to kids up to the age of 12/13 till last year. Now aint’ that a blast!!! I miss it guanophore. If I could have, I would have continued. But life gets in the way. I’ll tell you this though:

1. Catechists are not supposed to be learning about their faith from the internet. Catechism is not a religion class.
2. They’re supposed to ALREADY KNOW christianity.
3. Parishes should not be sanctioning using the internet to learn, but only as a tool, which I’ve done frequently. Did you ever check out those great images one could use for a catechism lesson to bring a point across visually to a kid?
4. What you DO use is the bible and the CCC and catechism books which you can either choose yourself or the parish provides - depends on the parish. I was lucky and was able to choose my own - all authorized of course.

So I’m here because I like to talk about God. Can’t do that with too many people - they just don’t seem interested.

It does disturb me though, to hear such varying OPINIONS from people who are supposed to be united in thought. But that’s not my problem to solve. I take what I can get and give what I know to be true and I’m quiet if I’m not sure or don’t know. Yes. There are some concepts I’m not qualified to explain, even though I’ve been studying for over 40 years. We’re not going to know everything - well, maybe know it in an intellectual kind of way, but that’s really different from being able to explain it.

I do wish you could find a good bible study. If you lived near me you could come to my home - I have one which is sanctioned by my parish by priests who know me well.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

It seems that you are doing a lot of backpedalling right now. You made this assertion:

You were asked to support your claim, which you cannot. Now you are saying that you are asked to defend a position not belonging to you? So it seems that you are not quite so sure as you indicated what Augustine said?

Here you have made another unsupportable inaccurate assertion.

Perhaps you have accepted the error purported by “different priests” that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus has changed, but I assure you, no amount of wayward homilies can change the Teachings of Jesus.

You are certainly a puzzle. You have joined a thread on the topic of EENS and now you are saying you have no interest in the topic, and yet you are posting quotes from Augustine to support a position with which you claim to disagree. :whacky:

Just two points:

1. Jesus taught that only catholics are saved???
   Please give supporting scripture. And I mean supporting scripture. Not what the church decided on centuries later.
2. Please read my post no. 42 to Peter J.
   I made no claims… And I believe I’ve made my position very clear.

Your emoticon is not very nice.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

FOR PETER J

Hi Peter J

When I sent off my reply to you I landed on Gorgias’ post.

It was he who had asked for Augustine’s quotes and not you. What was I thinking to post quotes I don’t even agree with?

What a mess!

Fran

 

[Peter_J]

I apologize for my curt answer.

Oh that’s OK.

The reason I was upset is because someone asked me to post something I had said about Augustine’s belief that persons outside the catholic church could not be saved.

I knew I was getting myself into trouble when I adhered to the request, that’s the only reason I posted the statements which came off the net, who remembers where or do I even care? I was even asked where I got them from - thus requiring additoinal support for a doctrine I don’t even BELIEVE!

Hope you understand. I don’t even remember who asked what and I don’t have a lot of time to go back and check - it might even have been YOU! No matter.

Let me state clearly for the readers, **Persons Outside the Catholic Church Can Be Saved.
**

What are you, some kind of post-VII Catholic or something??

(Kidding.)

FOR PETER J

Hi Peter J

When I sent off my reply to you I landed on Gorgias’ post.

It was he who had asked for Augustine’s quotes and not you. What was I thinking to post quotes I don’t even agree with?

What a mess!

Fran

I know what you mean. I very, very often resist my natural inclination to respond to something relating to “traditionalist” Catholicism, because I’m afraid of getting sucked-into an awkward conversation.

 

[benhur]

If a protestant leading a good moral life, keeping all the commandments but is incredulous to the Catholic teaching, can they make it to Heaven?

I know those with invincible ignorance won’t be judged for not being Catholic.

Does it basically mean those that refuse to be Catholic? Those that have enough understanding and yet reject the church?

Thanks.

It seems Catholic teaching on this matter is mixed, but written in such a way that for staunch hardliners it truthfully can be still maintained that there is not salvation outside the CC. At the same time for moderates, they see CC teaching as saying we are “separated brethren” but unlike hardliners, believe only God knows who will enter into the kingdom, with less "Catholic’’ hurdles (impossible ones) to jump, that hardliners hold on to.

I have said before teaching on this subject is not under one heading, and bits and pieces are here and there , and can be used accordingly to what you want to teach or stress.

For sure what remains is CC’s teaching of her absolute authority and caretaker, discerner on the matter here on earth for us “separated brethren”.

Blessings

 

[outremer]

If a protestant leading a good moral life, keeping all the commandments but is incredulous to the Catholic teaching, can they make it to Heaven?

I know those with invincible ignorance won’t be judged for not being Catholic.

Does it basically mean those that refuse to be Catholic? Those that have enough understanding and yet reject the church?

Thanks.

Validly baptized Protestants and Orthodox are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, albeit in an imperfect manner. They are actually PART of the Catholic Church. So, they are not necessarily outside of the Church, thankfully.

 

[guanophore]

I apologize for my curt answer. The reason I was upset is because someone asked me to post something I had said about Augustine’s belief that persons outside the catholic church could not be saved.

I knew I was getting myself into trouble when I adhered to the request, that’s the only reason I posted the statements which came off the net, who remembers where or do I even care? I was even asked where I got them from - thus requiring additoinal support for a doctrine I don’t even BELIEVE!

Hope you understand. I don’t even remember who asked what and I don’t have a lot of time to go back and check - it might even have been YOU! No matter.

That makes sense.

But there is a rule here that you have to cite your sources, especially when copying web pages. You can insert a link using the menu above the text window, or just paste the website address.

Let me state clearly for the readers, Persons Outside the Catholic Church Can Be Saved.

This statement is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus, continual teaching of the Church, or the catechism.

I will not debate such a fundamental principle.  Priests are available for information.  I cannot do more than quote the CCC (no. 818 and 1271).

Peace
Fran

It seems that you are listening to priests that are departing from the doctrine of the faith!

 

[guanophore]

I see you’ve been capitalizing the word Church. Okay. We could agree that all who are in the Church are saved. I’m just hoping you really understand the difference bwetween church and Church.

No, I could not agree to this. In fact, I fear the majority of American Catholics, though validly baptized and therefore “in” the Church are actually not “in Christ” to the extent that they reject the teachings of Christ preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church. A person who is living in a state of mortal sin is not “saved”. If they do not repent before they meet their Maker, they will not be saved.

you contradict yourself.  First you tell me the brothers say that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.  Then you agree with no. 818.  So Which Is It?  Are they saved or not???  You might want to check out 1271 too.  Let the brothers also explain that one to you.

Salvation is something that begins at baptism, continues throughout our lives on earth, and culminates when our earthly life is ended. It is not appropriate for any of us to make the judgement (including about ourselves!) that one “is saved or not”. That is only for God to decide.

There is no salvation outside the Church. This teaching was given to the Apostles by Christ, and has been held without fail since that time.

And BTW, tell them my brothers don’t agree with them. Now aint’ that interesting??

Regrettably there are many who call themselves Catholic who have actually lost their Catholicity, in the sense that they reject the teachings of the Church.

 Then you say there is only salvation in Christ.  Okay.  Now we're getting somewhere.  So you think Christ is only in the catholic church?

Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH. He is her Head, and the Holy Spirit is her Soul. All who are in Christ are joined to Him as Head, and are therefore joined to His One Body, the Church.

Some clarity guanophore - you confuse me.

:tiphat:

Happy to be of service!

I insist that you cannot learn about your faith from the internet or from CAF, generally speaking.

Well, I suppose that insisting such a thing only limits you, and prevents you from taking advantage of available resources.

How do you know who to trust? Can you trust me?

I have learned to trust many good, solid Catholic sources through my study. I trust sites that are faithful to the magesterium.

It appears that I can trust you to voice your opinions freely, as you seem to have done here. I can trust that you will accept official documents of the Church that are offered in support of a position, as you have done on this thread.

I think I can also trust, in spite of your frequent references to the contrary, that you do, in fact, care about these issues.

 How do you know who's right when a debate is going on?  We all sound so reasonable and right !  How do you know what to look up on the net?

These are excellent questions, and in fact, it is the debates in these fora that have spurred me to study and learn my faith much more accurately. On the contrary, I often read posts that don’t sound reasonable or right. It is one of the reasons I come here, because I love a good debate!

 

[guanophore]

Hmmm.  If you're looking it up, it must mean you already know it exists.  I can't google something I don't know about.

I am sorry that you are so Google impaired. I would not be able to survive on the internet without Google! Well, I would not want to …

If I already knew, I would probably not have to Google! Google helps me find things I don’t have, and don’t know.

The threads are full of great study resources and I save the links and many of the files in a database. I bookmark the original documents from the Vatican site and the searchable catechism. I save good posts in my database so that I can read them later, and follow up on the resources posted.

As to why I'm here:

I taught catechism to kids up to the age of 12/13 till last year. Now aint’ that a blast!!! I miss it guanophore. If I could have, I would have continued. But life gets in the way. I’ll tell you this though:

1. Catechists are not supposed to be learning about their faith from the internet. Catechism is not a religion class.

That is a great and difficult task. May God bless you richly for your service, and may he soon give you the desires of your heart to return to this blessed ministry.

I must disagree with you in regard to learning about your faith on the internet. My archdiocese uses the Virtual Learning Community of Faith Formaiton for training catechists. They are not religion classes either.

2.  They're supposed to ALREADY KNOW christianity.

Well, certainly one can hope that a catechist knows a lot of important fundamentals of the faith, but I have never met a Catholic who has mastered all of our 2000 year history. If I did meet a catachist who supposed that she “already knew” everything I would most likely not be able to be around her, as she would be suffering from such a severe case of hubris I would have a headache.

3.  Parishes should not be sanctioning using the internet to learn, but only as a tool, which I've done frequently.  Did you ever check out those great images one could use for a catechism lesson to bring a point across visually to a kid?

No, but if you put a link I will be happy to study them. I am glad that your position on the faith formation of catechists is not the same as our Archbishop, since the online learning is much more accessible to most of us than the in person faith formation.

4.  What you DO use is the bible and the CCC and catechism books which you can either choose yourself or the parish provides - depends on the parish.  I was lucky and was able to choose my own - all authorized of course.

While I do enjoy using the Bible and the CCC, I have been introduced to many more excellent texts through the faith formation process. Perhaps you might consider looking at them before you dismiss them as resources?

So I’m here because I like to talk about God. Can’t do that with too many people - they just don’t seem interested.

It does disturb me though, to hear such varying OPINIONS from people who are supposed to be united in thought.  But that's not my problem to solve.

To an extent we are all here to help each other grow in faith. When laypersons can help other laypersons learn their faith, it helps the whole Body grow up unto Him who is our Cornerstone.

That being said, there are some very disturbing opinions on here from people who claim to be Catholic.

I do wish you could find a good bible study.  If you lived near me you could come to my home - I have one which is sanctioned by my parish by priests who know me well.

You seem to have concerns that I not well acquainted with the Scriptures.

Just two points:

1. Jesus taught that only catholics are saved???
   Please give supporting scripture. And I mean supporting scripture. Not what the church decided on centuries later.

I can do that, but first I would like to object to the parameters. Jesus left His Holy Spirit to guide the Church into “all Truth”. He promised his fledgling Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail (the Church will not fall into error). Therefore, what the Church decided “centuries later” has as much validity as what was taught in the first century. If this were not the case, you would not be able to ask of me “supporting scripture”, since the Church did not settle the Canon of the New Testament until 382 AD. Prior to that time (and since for that matter) there were constant disputes about which books and letters were inspired. And, as you know, we don 't find the word “Trinity” in the scriptures. That was a term that was “decided on centuries later” along with the hypostatic union, and the holy Theotokos and an number of other doctrinal issues.

1. Please read my post no. 42 to Peter J.
   I made no claims… And I believe I’ve made my position very clear.

You have made claims.

Your position is clear.

Fran

This article is a good summary of what I believe about Catholics being saved.

Your emoticon is not very nice.

:crying:

 

[guanophore]

Validly baptized Protestants and Orthodox are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, albeit in an imperfect manner. They are actually PART of the Catholic Church. So, they are not necessarily outside of the Church, thankfully.

Let us all pray that we may become one, as He and the Father are One.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Oh that’s OK.

What are you, some kind of post-VII Catholic or something??

(Kidding.)

I know what you mean. I very, very often resist my natural inclination to respond to something relating to “traditionalist” Catholicism, because I’m afraid of getting sucked-into an awkward conversation.

Thanks for the understanding.

I’m back at peace with myself. (thought about my reply to you all day).

Fran

 

[benhur]

Validly baptized Protestants and Orthodox are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, albeit in an imperfect manner. They are actually PART of the Catholic Church. So, they are not necessarily outside of the Church, thankfully.

It is interesting that we are all members of the Body of Christ via identification thru faith in Christ, as individuals, but we are all one Church via identification thru the Catholic Church. Kind of making all other denominations "Samaria’’ and its members “Samaritans”. Hard to imagine half the Body of Christ, and the Church being in such an *imperfect *manner. Or perhaps we indeed all are members of the Body of Christ, from all denominations, and in a *perfect *manner ? For sure the gift of God begins perfectly in new life. Only One has walked it out perfectly thereafter to the finish line. The rest run the race specifically set before them, aspiring to finish their course.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

It is interesting that we are all members of the Body of Christ via identification thru faith in Christ, as individuals, but we are all one Church via identification thru the Catholic Church. Kind of making all other denominations "Samaria’’ and its members “Samaritans”. Hard to imagine half the Body of Christ, and the Church being in such an *imperfect *manner. Or perhaps we indeed all are members of the Body of Christ, from all denominations, and in a *perfect *manner ? For sure the gift of God begins perfectly in new life. Only One has walked it out perfectly thereafter to the finish line. The rest run the race specifically set before them, aspiring to finish their course.

Blessings

You are right, of course, it is ideal for us all to be united with Christ and one another perfectly. The Apostles’ taught that unity was preserved through adherance to the Truth. What has occurred is that now there are so many versions of Gospel Truth that some are exclusionary. I have dialogued with Reformed persons on these threads that don’t consider Catholics Christians at all, and therefore, not “brethren”.

I think if we were in unity, the Church as a whole would be a lot stronger and we would not be progressivelyl becoming a minority and victims of discrimination for our society. Let us all pray earnestly for that unity, that we may be One.

 

[benhur]

What has occurred is that now there are so many versions of Gospel Truth that some are exclusionary.

Hi G,

Yes, as has eventually always been the case with all testaments. The early church was challenged with what day to celebrate Easter, or whether the four or five patriarchs were equal or not caused much division as did Christology but only the latter really deals with the “Gospel Truth”. Today it goes on with Mariology, communion beliefs, absolution, and priesthood differences that divide, yet are they pertinent to the Gospel Truth and finding new life in Christ ?

I have dialogued with Reformed persons on these threads that don’t consider Catholics Christians at all, and therefore, not “brethren”.

Yes, I have met some of them. But if they are tough on Catholics, they tend to be "tough’’ on Lutherans, or Presbyterians, and really all who profess faith. That is, there main concern is not ones’s church, but one’s spiritual condition in terms of being born again or not (primary command of the Gospel Truth). Generally, the more a church stresses effectual sacraments and rites to that end, the more they question . So even a church that stresses a “sinners prayer”, they may want to see evidences of a genuine rebirth.

I guess they may know that some Catholics are "saved’’, but not just because they are "Catholic’’, anymore than a Baptist is saved because he is a Baptist. The difference should be looked at as to how each church responds to the above. Does the Baptist church say you are “saved” if you are a “Baptist”? Does the Catholic Church say you are saved, born again, if you are Catholic?

I think if we were in unity, the Church as a whole would be a lot stronger and we would not be progressivelyl becoming a minority and victims of discrimination for our society. Let us all pray earnestly for that unity, that we may be One

Amen. Actually, strength and unity sometimes comes about from being a minority (weeding out some goats), and from discrimination, even persecution.

Thanks for your reply

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

“separated brethren”

But we’re not *your *separated brethren, you’re *our *separated brethren.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

But we’re not *your *separated brethren, you’re *our *separated brethren.

Actually we are separated from each other