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benhur
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Hi PJ,
Yes, of course, a telling, subtle truth ( I am laughing to myself Pete, saying, " yeah, a subtle truth, like a kick in the teeth.) But thank you.
Blessings and good first Friday to you .
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Protestants
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Yes, of course, a telling, subtle truth ( I am laughing to myself Pete, saying, " yeah, a subtle truth, like a kick in the teeth.) But thank you.
Blessings and good first Friday to you .
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benhur
Guest
Got your Dec. 17th tickets ?Actually we are separated from each other
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guanophore
Guest
I did some liberal excision so that I could respond specifically to these comments. Catholics, as you may know, look at salvation as a process. We are justified, or put in right relation ship with God in baptism, and we are to work out our salvaton with fear and trembling through this life. As you note above, it is incumbent upon us to demonstrate the evidences of a genuine rebirth, to bear the fruit that befits repentance. We strive to complete this life in a state of grace, remaining “in Christ”. But for us, salvation is not completed in this life, but at the end of it, when we meet our Maker. So a Catholic has already been saved (in baptism), is being saved, and will be saved.
In short answer to your query, no, not all those who enter the River of Life in baptism remain within it, and if one leaves it, one abandons the faith into which they were baptized. No one can snatch us out of His hand, but we can jump out!
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Working on it
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Just throwing by :twocents: in
To a Lutheran justification is an event and a process , justified by grace alone through faith alone in the atonement , at our baptism , Jesus continually justifys us as long one trusts him personally and passively by faith. As one is being justified by faith alone , as a natural result we are bound to and will produce fruit known as works . Falling away is possible because of apostasy but apostates may come back to faith and be saved .
In short , we are justified , are being justified, and will be justified.
Not trying to debate , just throwing in some pennies, keep the faith Starwars
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Benhur,
A man (I hope!) after my own heart!
I use the CCC to prepare lessons. People on these threads refer me to the CCC. Uffa. It’s one of the most confusing books! Conflicting ideas all over - unclear ideas all over. If you don’t already know the concept, it’s really difficult to pick it up from the CCC.
Plus, I’d say GOD is the absolute authority on ALL matters and, I think, His word is in the bible - if I’m not mistaken…!
So you bring up an excellent point. Maybe it’s purposeful??? Keeps everybody happy, the hardliners, as you call them, and the moderates. Thanks for the thought - will keep it in mind for future reference.
Fran
P.S. One of my favorite, all-time scenes in any movie is in Ben Hur. And I think you’ll know which it is - Charlton Heston needing a drink of water from Him who removes our thirst.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
What are you doing
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Of course you’d be rejecting the catholic church.
But that doesn’t mean you’d be rejecting God.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Why are you using a quote in your post no. 49 I posted to Peter J?
Please don’t do that. It’s confusing to me and probably the readers and I don’t have time to doublecheck each and everyone of your posts.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
There’s a rule here that I have to cite my sources.
Could you please give me your source for that statement?
How about this: I cite my brain - which has been absorbing christian doctrine for 40 years. If you don’t agree with something specific, you could say so. Trouble is you doubt EVERYTHING I say so it’s impossible to discuss with you since I have little time.
I guess these priests and I need to go back to catechism classess…
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
It’s good that you keep studying Guanophore.No, I could not agree to this. In fact, I fear the majority of American Catholics, though validly baptized and therefore “in” the Church are actually not “in Christ” to the extent that they reject the teachings of Christ preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church. A person who is living in a state of mortal sin is not “saved”. If they do not repent before they meet their Maker, they will not be saved.
Salvation is something that begins at baptism, continues throughout our lives on earth, and culminates when our earthly life is ended. It is not appropriate for any of us to make the judgement (including about ourselves!) that one “is saved or not”. That is only for God to decide.
There is no salvation outside the Church. This teaching was given to the Apostles by Christ, and has been held without fail since that time.
Regrettably there are many who call themselves Catholic who have actually lost their Catholicity, in the sense that they reject the teachings of the Church.
Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH. He is her Head, and the Holy Spirit is her Soul. All who are in Christ are joined to Him as Head, and are therefore joined to His One Body, the Church.
:tiphat:
Happy to be of service!
Well, I suppose that insisting such a thing only limits you, and prevents you from taking advantage of available resources.
I have learned to trust many good, solid Catholic sources through my study. I trust sites that are faithful to the magesterium.
It appears that I can trust you to voice your opinions freely, as you seem to have done here. I can trust that you will accept official documents of the Church that are offered in support of a position, as you have done on this thread.
I think I can also trust, in spite of your frequent references to the contrary, that you do, in fact, care about these issues.
These are excellent questions, and in fact, it is the debates in these fora that have spurred me to study and learn my faith much more accurately. On the contrary, I often read posts that don’t sound reasonable or right. It is one of the reasons I come here, because I love a good debate!
I can’t sit here and do the quote thingy and plus I’ve made my position clear on all of the above and will not repeat myself. You have the right not to agree with me.
Just will comment on the following which you say above:
There is no salvation outside the Church. This teaching was given to the Apostles by Christ, and has been held without fail since that time.
You see. Just as I thought. You don’t know the difference between church and Church.
Here it is: chruch is the church down in Rome. Or it could be the physical church - where you go to Mass, the building.
Church is the universal (which is also known as catholic, believe it or not but not the catholic you understand) Church or the Body of Christ. It’s made up of believers. People who believe in Christ are members of the Body of Christ, no matter what religion. Maybe you forgot to read CCC no. 1271? This concept is biblical, but why trust the bible?? Which is God’s Word. Better to trust the CCC which was written by man. I know, I know, it’s based on the bible. Why not go to the original source? You believe in sources.
So your statement that there is no salvation outside the Church is wrong.
jAlso, you could reject a teaching of the church and still be Catholic. Is this ideal? No. But do you think EVERY catholic believes EVERY doctrine? The churches would be empty…
Nuff said.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Gosh. Guanophore, I don’t think I need formation sources. BTW, what did people ever do before google??? I think, I kind of, almost remember that time! Please don’t comment on using the internet anymore. Please.I am sorry that you are so Google impaired. I would not be able to survive on the internet without Google! Well, I would not want to …
If I already knew, I would probably not have to Google! Google helps me find things I don’t have, and don’t know.
The threads are full of great study resources and I save the links and many of the files in a database. I bookmark the original documents from the Vatican site and the searchable catechism. I save good posts in my database so that I can read them later, and follow up on the resources posted.
That is a great and difficult task. May God bless you richly for your service, and may he soon give you the desires of your heart to return to this blessed ministry.
I must disagree with you in regard to learning about your faith on the internet. My archdiocese uses the Virtual Learning Community of Faith Formaiton for training catechists. They are not religion classes either.
Well, certainly one can hope that a catechist knows a lot of important fundamentals of the faith, but I have never met a Catholic who has mastered all of our 2000 year history. If I did meet a catachist who supposed that she “already knew” everything I would most likely not be able to be around her, as she would be suffering from such a severe case of hubris I would have a headache.
No, but if you put a link I will be happy to study them. I am glad that your position on the faith formation of catechists is not the same as our Archbishop, since the online learning is much more accessible to most of us than the in person faith formation.
While I do enjoy using the Bible and the CCC, I have been introduced to many more excellent texts through the faith formation process. Perhaps you might consider looking at them before you dismiss them as resources?
To an extent we are all here to help each other grow in faith. When laypersons can help other laypersons learn their faith, it helps the whole Body grow up unto Him who is our Cornerstone.
That being said, there are some very disturbing opinions on here from people who claim to be Catholic.
You seem to have concerns that I not well acquainted with the Scriptures.
I can do that, but first I would like to object to the parameters. Jesus left His Holy Spirit to guide the Church into “all Truth”. He promised his fledgling Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail (the Church will not fall into error). Therefore, what the Church decided “centuries later” has as much validity as what was taught in the first century. If this were not the case, you would not be able to ask of me “supporting scripture”, since the Church did not settle the Canon of the New Testament until 382 AD. Prior to that time (and since for that matter) there were constant disputes about which books and letters were inspired. And, as you know, we don 't find the word “Trinity” in the scriptures. That was a term that was “decided on centuries later” along with the hypostatic union, and the holy Theotokos and an number of other doctrinal issues.
You have made claims.
Your position is clear.
:crying:
But you’re doing it again. Overwhelming me. You’re going to have to stick to one topic at a time. Maybe we could write a book together: He said - She said.
It would leave readers pretty confused!
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
So you agree? (your response to outremer).
Let us all pray that we may become one, as He and the Father are One.
See. There you go again. Changing positions. Didn’t you say everyone outside the catholic church is not saved??
It must be me.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Just to clarify. The catholic church says that other denominations don’t have the “fullness” of the faith.
How it could be more full than to know the Lord is something I grapple with. I know what they mean though since I’ve taught in the catholic church. They mean that you don’t have as many sacraments as we do so you don’t get as much grace since grace is offered through the sacraments. Grace is also outside the sacraments but it is imparted in a special way, by the H.S., through them. We like to complicate things. And anyone out there who gets upset with this remark, hasn’t ever had to teach our doctrines.
I wonder if anyone knows that the catholic church is refers to its being universal. This is also found in the CCC but I’m not going to look it up because I pretty much believe it’s all of no matter.
If one is a brother of mine in Christ, that’s all I feel is important. I believe Pope Francis is in agrement with me - let me say that before anyone gets too upset.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Your above post is responding to Ben Hur.
???
Didn’t you say many times that only catholics are saved?
I give up.
Fran
of course you mean that protestants should become catholic.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
You’re not writing to me Starwarsfan, But I’d like to add.Just throwing by :twocents: in
To a Lutheran justification is an event and a process , justified by grace alone through faith alone in the atonement , at our baptism , Jesus continually justifys us as long one trusts him personally and passively by faith. As one is being justified by faith alone , as a natural result we are bound to and will produce fruit known as works . Falling away is possible because of apostasy but apostates may come back to faith and be saved .
In short , we are justified , are being justified, and will be justified.
Not trying to debate , just throwing in some pennies, keep the faith Starwars
You’re leaving out sanctification. How then, would you explain that?
Justification brings us to God. He has justified us through our faith and we become a child of God, enter the fold, become a member of the Church - think of it as you may. He sees us as a new creature, born of the H.S. and a believer of Jesus and thus God.
Sanctification is the ongoing process by which we learn our faith, learn to BELIEVE it (the greek believe), learn to walk in it - it might be called our works as in James. We each reach a different level of sanctification - I’m never going to be on the level of, let’s say, St. Francis or maybe Luther or Wesley, for instance. Add your own name…
Would you agree with the above?
Fran
p.s. I see you you’re going to help along with the 2 bil that’ll be taken in!
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benhur
Guest
Missed the 17th but have 18th and definitely Imax.Working on it
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guanophore
Guest
You seem to have a black and white/either or tendency in your thinking. If this is the case, it may be difficult for you to accept that the Church, though recognizing that Protestants are indeed our separated brethren, still teaches there is no salvation outside the Church.
I never said any such thing. I believe you did attempt to assign me that position, because I think that is how you understand EENS.
I think they stand in the tradition of Apollos, a Jewish Christian from Alexandria described in Acts 18:24–28 as being eloquent, well versed in Scripture, and possessed of considerable oratorical talent. Apollos knew only the baptism of John the Baptist, but he preached the “Way of the Lord” with both fervor and skill. He preached in the synagogue of Ephesus and attracted the support of Priscilla and Aquila, who gave him a fuller understanding of the Gospel.
They are fervent with the part of the Revelation they have embraced, but lost the Sacred Tradition during the Reformation, and have been losing part of the faith progressively ever since.
Yes, I think there are many Protestants that have a more pure spiritual communion with Christ than Catholics who come to Mass unprepared.
This being the case, it is no wonder that you reject the Scriptural referece to the universal Church, using the Greek word katholos. It also explains why you do not believe that the Church founded by Christ was Catholic.
Well by all means, let us all go by our “feelings”.
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guanophore
Guest
Perhaps you believe you have already spiritually “arrived”?
Let me give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you mean that you have many valuable and adequate spiritual formation sources locally, so you do not need to find them in cyberspace.
There were door to door encyclopedia salesmen and many homes had the 20 volume set with the index.
It is a mistake to assume that, if one uses resources online to learn about the Catholic faith, they are using “Google”. It is easy to find the Vatican website with out “Google”:
w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
You may be older, so you were brought up in a generation that was centered around cyberspace as the primary source of information. But our young people today are getting their textbooks electronically, reading on pads, and researching not in physical libraries but databases in cyberspace. Such a method of study may never appeal to you, but to make bold assertions to the effect that a person cannot, or should not, learn about their faith on the internet is frankly preposterous. Even the Pope has Twitter, for God’s sake!
You can skip my posts, block them, or whatever you like, but I will continue to post quality Catholic links for anyone else reading the threads to promote the study of the faith.
I will also take issue with anyone who claims we cannot learn about our faith on the internet.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
I have a feeling I was using computers before you were born. Remember DOS?Perhaps you believe you have already spiritually “arrived”?
Let me give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you mean that you have many valuable and adequate spiritual formation sources locally, so you do not need to find them in cyberspace.
There were door to door encyclopedia salesmen and many homes had the 20 volume set with the index.
It is a mistake to assume that, if one uses resources online to learn about the Catholic faith, they are using “Google”. It is easy to find the Vatican website with out “Google”:
w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
You may be older, so you were brought up in a generation that was centered around cyberspace as the primary source of information. But our young people today are getting their textbooks electronically, reading on pads, and researching not in physical libraries but databases in cyberspace. Such a method of study may never appeal to you, but to make bold assertions to the effect that a person cannot, or should not, learn about their faith on the internet is frankly preposterous. Even the Pope has Twitter, for God’s sake!
You can skip my posts, block them, or whatever you like, but I will continue to post quality Catholic links for anyone else reading the threads to promote the study of the faith.
I will also take issue with anyone who claims we cannot learn about our faith on the internet.
Anyway, thanks for all the information.
Just remember to follow Jesus.
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