Here is J P II explaining it: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html.Can somebody please explain the EENS doctrine…many others have tried but the hread always ends up as a debate on who is saved and who isn’t can somebosy please explain it clearly?
Thank You,
Carlton 1993
To be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.
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The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.
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The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin.
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No one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
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If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.
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He who is a member of the Catholic Church and does not put her teaching into practice is a dead member, and hence will not be saved; for towards the salvation of an adult not only Baptism and faith are required, but, furthermore, works in keeping with faith.
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We are obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us, and Jesus Christ declares that he who does not believe is already condemned.
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We are obliged to do all that the Church commands, for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of the Church: “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me.”
26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And there shall come from the east and the west, and the north and the south; and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, they are last that shall be first; and they are first that shall be last.Commentary:
*24 “Shall seek”… Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it. *
If people who are not Catholic are saved, it is because of the existence of the Catholic Church. Some ways that non-Catholics can be saved isCan somebody please explain the EENS doctrine…many others have tried but the hread always ends up as a debate on who is saved and who isn’t can somebosy please explain it clearly?Thank You,Carlton 1993
The problem with that is, the Church has always taught that God gives sufficient grace to all men for salvation. “the faith necessary for salvation” is the Catholic faith. Ignorance isn’t salvific. Ignorance is not a means to sanctifying grace which is necessary to get to Heaven.For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that “God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7). Certainly, the condition “inculpably ignorant” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, “Grace works in an unseen way… The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery” (GS 22).
I don’t see the issue here.The problem with that is, the Church has always taught that God gives sufficient grace to all men for salvation. “the faith necessary for salvation” is the Catholic faith. Ignorance isn’t salvific. Ignorance is not a means to sanctifying grace which is necessary to get to Heaven.
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336**Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.**337Nobody is claiming that ignorance is salvific. It is supernatural faith through grace that is salvific. God draws all men to Himself with His grace, but they must respond. He offers salvation to all men. A man may have supernatural faith in Him, while being ignorant of the Catholic religion. Implicit in this faith is a desire to believe and obey all that God has revealed and commanded. Thus, it is the faith that is salvific, not the ignorance.The problem with that is, the Church has always taught that God gives sufficient grace to all men for salvation. “the faith necessary for salvation” is the Catholic faith. Ignorance isn’t salvific. Ignorance is not a means to sanctifying grace which is necessary to get to Heaven.
This is true, but again, as you say, it is miraculous. While we know grace is imparted through the Sacrament of Baptism, we do not know how God imparts it to those who desire it, but are without it. Nor do we know how He judges whether or not they have properly responded to it, etc. We know He does, but we cannot claim to know how.God’s ways known only to himself have to correspond to what he has revealed to us since God is not a liar. Those who are saved who are not known to belong to the visible structures of the Church are recieving physical Baptism miraculously. That is the only way Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood can work. Wishful thinking cannot be Baptism of Desire or Blood.
The problem with that is “reformulated positively” isn’t reformulated positively. It’s been transformed.I don’t see the issue here.
Here is what the Catechsim says:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Code:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338Code:**Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.**337
You have to distinguish between actual grace and sanctifying grace. Actual grace will draw you towards the Church but it will not be salvific if you don’t get the sanctifying grace of the sacraments in the Church.Nobody is claiming that ignorance is salvific. It is supernatural faith through grace that is salvific. God draws all men to Himself with His grace, but they must respond. He offers salvation to all men. A man may have supernatural faith in Him, while being ignorant of the Catholic religion. Implicit in this faith is a desire to believe and obey all that God has revealed and commanded. Thus, it is the faith that is salvific, not the ignorance.
But we do know that water is necessary. We know that a Sacrament is an outward sign. Meaning that it’s a physical thing. Belief in an exception would mean that it’s not necessary.This is true, but again, as you say, it is miraculous. While we know grace is imparted through the Sacrament of Baptism, we do not know how God imparts it to those who desire it, but are without it.
That’s why we cannot have any saints with any certainty that were not Catholics.Nor do we know how He judges whether or not they have properly responded to it, etc. We know He does, but we cannot claim to know how.
This statement makes it infallible."The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches
All of those listed are outside the Catholic Church. Pagans who are ignorant, along with Jews, heretics and schismatics are not in any way capable of being saved…that** none of those existing **outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,
before death is the important phrase.unless** before death **they are joined with Her;
only by joining with and remaining in ecclesiastical unity can anyone obtain the necessary sanctifying grace provided by the sacraments. In other words 7 sacraments outside the ecclesiastical unity (the Orthodox) are not salvific. With the exception being a valid Baptism and sinlessness between then and death.and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body** that only those remaining within this **unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation,
Christian works of piety are not helpful to anyone at all if they don’t lead one to the Church before death.and **they alone **can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier.
This condemns the popular idea of Baptism of Blood or Desire and the “anonymous Christian.”No one, let** his almsgiving be as great as it may**, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, **can be saved, unless he remain **within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
So it seems the question boils down to whether today’s Protestants are heretics or schismatics, as you’ve implied that they are outside the Catholic Church.The statement is firm. It says “No one.” Pagans are ignorant of Christ. Jews ignorant or not of Christ, Heretics, Schismatics or anyone else can be saved because they lack the ecclesiastical bonds which are necessary to gain the sanctifying grace of the sacraments. It’s that lack that will cause them to go to Hell and ultimately it’s their fault if they don’t find a way to join the Church.
It doesn’t matter what good works they do with or without the Name of Christ. They can’t be saved without actually physically belonging to the Church through a valid Baptism and other relevant factors according to theChurch’s dogmatic teachings.
Well, that looks troubling.2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;** schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him**.”
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . .** All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ**; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
And there’s the rub.819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
Care to re-consider your erroneous, overly rigid interpretation in light of the clear teaching of a 19th-Century pope?“There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”
(QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE, cf7, Pope Pius IX, 1863)
You seem to pitting Pius IX against 3 infallable statements and the council of Trent. Trent saying that Baptism is necessary for salvation and that the sacrament are necessary for salvation, though not all.GerardP–you seem to be willing to get into an argument with Pope Pius IX over this issue. HE is the one who said:
“There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”
(QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE, cf7, Pope Pius IX, 1863)
Care to re-consider your erroneous, overly rigid interpretation in light of the clear teaching of a 19th-Century pope?
DJim