Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Explanation Please

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This was directed more towards already baptized Roman Catholic’s than non-blievers ( most of Europe at that time was Roman Catholic ). It would would be like a W.W. II U.S. Navy sailor jumping off a battleship and swims towards a little dinky German destroyer escort, well, a well armed battleship ( they ain’t going to save that sailor who jumped ship ) most likely will sink the destroyer escort with a couple of shots ( unfortunaterly many people will die as a result of them shots from the battleship ). It is certain horrible death for those ( already baptized, confirmed Roman Catholic’s ) who choose to leave the One True Faith, outside of which, no one can be saved.
Now someone who is a non-believer, cannot be held accountable for NOT knowing and understanding the TRUTH, thus the baptism of desire, etc.
 
Napad:

The living Magisterium of the Catholic Church makes it quite clear that God is not bound by His own command that we come into His Church through water baptism.

Your argument is with God, not me.

Apparently you must think Pope Pius IX is a heretic?

DJim
 
You seem to pitting Pius IX against 3 infallable statements and the council of Trent. Trent saying that Baptism is necessary for salvation and that the sacrament are necessary for salvation, though not all.

Pius IX must be hoping that God can find a way of getting baptism to those innocent souls searching for him.

We should be seeing the continuity of teaching not an evolution of teaching. The 3 infallable statements saying EENS, " Outside the Church there is no salvation ", must stand as they were used then. We should see a pope or any teaching in light of more authoritive teaching not the latest teaching.

BTW the translation you are using is bad. “do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments” Punishments should read torments. Punishments would mean he was endorsing Pelegianism.
I suggest a reading of these three articles by Fr. Fenton (in the 1940s). They explain this well–part 2 deals with the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics:

catholicresponse.net/proofpart1.htm

catholicresponse.net/proofpart2.htm

catholicresponse.net/proofpart3.htm

Concerning the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguori explains:

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) Moral Theology - (Bk. 6): "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called ‘of wind’ ‘flaminis’] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ‘flamen’]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon ‘Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato’ and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved ‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.’"
 
I suggest a reading of these three articles by Fr. Fenton (in the 1940s). They explain this well–part 2 deals with the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics:

catholicresponse.net/proofpart1.htm

catholicresponse.net/proofpart2.htm

catholicresponse.net/proofpart3.htm

Concerning the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguori explains:

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) Moral Theology - (Bk. 6): "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called ‘of wind’ ‘flaminis’] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ‘flamen’]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon ‘Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato’ and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved ‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.’"
St. Ligouri he is referring to those who desire baptism of water ( I shouldnt even have to make this distinction since the only form of baptism is in water cf. Trent) but can’t seem to make it. He correctly points out that one receives the grace of baptism but not the mark.

The mark is recieved only in baptism of water and is what incorporates us into the Mystical Body. We can reject our membership by heresy or schism (when we reach the age of reason if we were baptised as a baby) This may or may not be a mortal sin, but by rejecting the Church one rejects the helps Jesus would like to give for salvation.

Trent does not say: that no one can be **saved **‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.’"/

What it is talking about is justification
Session 6, Chapter IV, Decree Concerning Justification (Jan. 13, 1547):

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior. **This translation **however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The word translation does not = salvation.

It is talking about justification which = sanctyfing grace.

Baptism of desire does not incorporate one into the Church it gives santifying grace. One can not recieve the other sacraments if one had only BOD. Sanctifying grace is NECESSARY but NOT SUFFICIENT. Membership in the Church is also necessary :

**“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary **for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
 
Napad:

The living Magisterium of the Catholic Church makes it quite clear that God is not bound by His own command that we come into His Church through water baptism.

Your argument is with God, not me.

Apparently you must think Pope Pius IX is a heretic?

DJim
God is bound by his word. I didnt ask for baptism to be necessary for salvation Trent told me to believe this. Truth can not be against truth. To say BOD is all that is necessary is the opposite of a proclaimed dogma.
The living magesterium is to be understood according to dogma which is a higher authority and infallable. One doesnt subject a lesser authority to a higher. The living magisterium is only infallable when it teaches in harmony with dogma, ie that which is held always and everywhere as defined:
Council of Trent, Canons on Baptism (Canon 5): ”If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema. …

Are you saying Baptism of water is not necessary for salvation?

BTW I do accept Bod as giving sanctyfing grace but I question if it is sufficient for salvation.
 
God is bound by his word. I didnt ask for baptism to be necessary for salvation Trent told me to believe this. Truth can not be against truth. To say BOD is all that is necessary is the opposite of a proclaimed dogma.
The living magesterium is to be understood according to dogma which is a higher authority and infallable. One doesnt subject a lesser authority to a higher. The living magisterium is only infallable when it teaches in harmony with dogma, ie that which is held always and everywhere as defined:
Council of Trent, Canons on Baptism (Canon 5): ”If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema. …

Are you saying Baptism of water is not necessary for salvation?
I notice you did not reply to my question about Pius IX.

I AM MOST DEFINITELY saying that Baptism of water is not necessary for salvation when it is IMPOSSIBLE.

I say that because MY CHURCH says that.

In the faith I profess–the Holy Roman Catholic Faith–I don’t have to choose between Pope Pius IX and Trent. I get to keep them both.

I’m sorry your faith doesn’t afford you that same privilege.

Your above attempt at explaining your dissent against Pope Pius IX is woeful.

The Magisterium cannot teach error in its universal teachings on faith and morals.

Pius statement regarding invincible ignorance is NOT erroneous.

Yours is.

DJim

PS–apologies if I sound a bit harsh. This issue gets under my skin a bit…and if I misstated your view, please correct me…
 
I notice you did not reply to my question about Pius IX.

I AM MOST DEFINITELY saying that Baptism of water is not necessary for salvation when it is IMPOSSIBLE.

I say that because MY CHURCH says that.

In the faith I profess–the Holy Roman Catholic Faith–I don’t have to choose between Pope Pius IX and Trent. I get to keep them both.

I’m sorry your faith doesn’t afford you that same privilege.

Your above attempt at explaining your dissent against Pope Pius IX is woeful.

The Magisterium cannot teach error in its universal teachings on faith and morals.

Pius statement regarding invincible ignorance is NOT erroneous.

Yours is.

DJim

PS–apologies if I sound a bit harsh. This issue gets under my skin a bit…and if I misstated your view, please correct me…
First i dont have any issue with Pius the IX

But you say they that baptism isnt necessary for salvatioin show me where Pius IX said this.

This is against the dogmatic definition

I accept them both but you deny trent and interpert Pius to contradict trent

I am not a dissenter. If this was 1930 and I told you limbo is not a teaching of the Church you would have said I was a heritic.

In theology distinctions must be drawn. One word can make all the difference.
 
First i dont have any issue with Pius the IX

But you say they that baptism isnt necessary for salvatioin show me where Pius IX said this.

This is against the dogmatic definition

I accept them both but you deny trent and interpert Pius to contradict trent

I am not a dissenter. If this was 1930 and I told you limbo is not a teaching of the Church you would have said I was a heritic.

In theology distinctions must be drawn. One word can make all the difference.
Earlier in the thread I quoted Pius IX’s statement regarding invincible ignorance and salvation–
“There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”
Pius does not say that these invincibly ignorant attain eternal life via water baptism. Obviously, the invincibly ignorant do not experience water baptism. If they did, they wouldn’t be invincibly ignorant…

Yet they attain eternal life as a response to divine light and grace.

Do you believe this is true? If you don’t, then you are dissenting from the papal magisterium.

Pius does believe it. And it’s not possible for him to teach universal error in faith and morals.

This does not negate Trent. Trent teaches according to what is possible. God does not demand the impossible from us.

I’ve shown you where Pius says that souls can be saved without water baptism. I have not denied Trent. Limbo has never been a magisterial teaching.

DJim
 
St. Ligouri he is referring to those who desire baptism of water ( I shouldnt even have to make this distinction since the only form of baptism is in water cf. Trent) but can’t seem to make it. He correctly points out that one receives the grace of baptism but not the mark.

The mark is recieved only in baptism of water and is what incorporates us into the Mystical Body. We can reject our membership by heresy or schism (when we reach the age of reason if we were baptised as a baby) This may or may not be a mortal sin, but by rejecting the Church one rejects the helps Jesus would like to give for salvation.

Trent does not say: that no one can be **saved **‘without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.’"/

What it is talking about is justification
Session 6, Chapter IV, Decree Concerning Justification (Jan. 13, 1547):

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior. **This translation **however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The word translation does not = salvation.

It is talking about justification which = sanctyfing grace.

Baptism of desire does not incorporate one into the Church it gives santifying grace. One can not recieve the other sacraments if one had only BOD. Sanctifying grace is NECESSARY but NOT SUFFICIENT. Membership in the Church is also necessary :

**“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary **for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Read the series of three articles I linked to. There is such a thing as membership in voto, that is, membership by desire. It is not the full communion that is membership in res, but it suffices for salvation. Such a person is truly united to the Church subject to the Roman Pontiff.

One cannot even be in the state of sanctifying grace without being united in some way to the Church of Christ. To say one can be in the state of grace but not united to the source and mediator of grace is at odds with Catholic teaching. There is no remission of sins apart from the Church.

St. Alphonsus Liguori was discussing salvation. He includes an implicit desire for water Baptism as well. St. Augustine explains what this is:

“I find that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not permit the celebration of the mystery, of Baptism.”

You are not reading Trent according to teaching that came before it–you have to apply a hermeneutic of continuity. The series of articles I linked to earlier discuss that teaching.

Here is another good read from the Holy Office under Pius XII addressing the Fr. Feeney situation:

matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixe.html

Here is an exerpt, but I really suggest reading the entire letter:

“The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes will to be conformed to the will of God.”
 
Here is another good read from the Holy Office under Pius XII addressing the Fr. Feeney situation:

matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixe.html

Here is an exerpt, but I really suggest reading the entire letter:

“The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes will to be conformed to the will of God.”
Ottaviani could be a real scoundrel at times. And I don’t believe this letter was actually ever included in the Acts of the Apostolic See.

The problem with this is the creeping modernism that affected almost every aspect of the Church. The agnosticism that was at the root of it all.

The whole attitude of the “Baptism of Desire” “Baptism of Blood” mentality is one of :

“God is a little God, who just can’t seem to make His Church work correctly”

“Since miracles are ludicrous, since I don’t see them, we have to twist what has been previously known to conform to our perceptions.”

“Somehow, we’re going to find a way to make God conform to our standards motivated by “ecumenism” and not simply accept what He has decreed.”

If you’re going to suggest to someone to got Matt’s anti-tradtionalist propaganda pages. I suggest that they go to

www.catholicism.org for the rest of the story.

It sheds quite a bit of light and detail that those who are anti-traditionalist don’t want people to know about.

Fr. Feeney was never required to recant his position on No Salvation Outside the Church. He died in good standing in the Church.
 
Part of the scam being perpetrated by those who are opposed to Fr. Feeney is the false premise that Fr. Feeney was insisting that in order to be saved one has to be “registered in a parish” and recieve Baptism of water, collections envelopes etc.

This caricature of Fr. Feeney is consistently used as a ploy to paint him as an extremist.

Fr. Feeney did believe in Baptism of Desire etc. But he also believed that since water is necessary, somehow God would provide a water Baptism to accompany that desire. That’s all.
 
Feeney was excommunicated because he was disobedient.

Not exactly a choice role model.

Further, Feeney embraced a doctrinal error.

Not exactly a choice role model.

The 1949 letter does accurately teach what the Church definitively teaches on the subject.

DJim

PS: It constantly amazes me that people who believe that God could miraculously provide real water–and presumably a real PERSON to really POUR the real water and really say out loud the real baptismal formula (ALL of which is necessary for valid Baptism)—can’t simply just believe God coul miraculously give a person eternal life in Heaven without water…and without all the stuff I just mentioned that is required for valid baptism…
 
GerardP–

Perhaps you will expound more upon Fr. Feeney’s insufficient belief that God would provide a “water” baptism to accompany “baptism of desire”.
  1. If God miraculously provides a water baptism, then it’s NOT baptism of desire anymore, is it? Which means Feeney rejects baptism of desire by definition. BOD is by definition without water.
  2. If God miraculously provides water, does he not also need to miraculously provide a minister of Baptism capable of pouring water and humanly speaking the baptismal formula?
DJim
 
If you’re going to suggest to someone to got Matt’s anti-tradtionalist propaganda pages.
I just provided a link to the primary document.

Look, here is another statement from Pius XII himself:

“Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”

And here, to make you happy:hug3:, I’ll link to the text at a pro-traditionalist site:

fisheaters.com/addresstomidwives.html
 
Feeney was excommunicated because he was disobedient.

Not exactly a choice role model.
From the Fr. Feeney Fact Sheet:

A. On October 25, 1952 Father Feeney was summoned to Rome for a hearing by Cardinal Pizzardo of the Holy Office, without being told why.

B. On October 30, 1952 Father Feeney responded by requesting a statement of the charges being made against him — as required by Canon 1715. The summons by Card. Pizzardo, in violation of this canon, failed to either state the reason for the summons nor give a formal statement of charges against the defendant.

C. According to Canon 1723, any proceeding based on citations as defective as the Cardinal’s letter, are subject to a complaint of nullity; and also renders a non-canonical summons null. The complaint of nullity is allowed under Canon 1680. A compliant of nullity was formally filed by Father Feeney. Yet, it was never responded to nor even acknowledged.

D. Instead, on November 22, 1952 Father Feeney was threatened by Card. Pizzardo with an imposition of a canonical penalty, without stating the crime for which it is imposed. This is in violation of Canon 2225. Canon 1959 forbids penalties without a trial.

E. On December 2, 1952 Father Feeney responded by asking with what he was being charged. Again, according to Canon 1715, this was not only Father Feeney’s right, but it was required for those who do the summoning. Also, Canons 1842 and 1843 required that the defendant be informed both of the charges against him and the nature of the proceedings to which he had been summoned.

F. On January 9, 1953 Father Feeney was then threatened with automatic excommunication, ipso facto, if he failed to report to Rome by a certain date. This letter ignored Father Feeney’s points concerning Canon Laws requirements, for the offense alleged against Father Feeney — not obeying the summons to Rome — is a matter for a court or judge to weigh. He could not be excommunicated ipso facto because his action did not fall under the category of crimes meriting such a sentence.

It should be noted that in the demands and threats from this member of the Roman Curia there were six direct violations of Canon Law. Both the appeals and canonical rights of Father Feeney were ignored and disregarded. Thus, this whole ordeal is not only suspect, but fallacious and immoral.
Further, Feeney embraced a doctrinal error.
Not exactly a choice role model.
No he didn’t. His status was reconciled and he was never required to recant his position. Much more recently the CDF in the regularization of one of the St. Benedict groups determined that it allows the same latitude towards the more rigid understanding of EENS as it does the more liberal interpretation.
The 1949 letter does accurately teach what the Church definitively teaches on the subject.
No. It speculates on theological ideas. Ultimately, there will have to be yet another ex cathedra declaration clearing this up.
PS: It constantly amazes me that people who believe that God could miraculously provide real water–and presumably a real PERSON to really POUR the real water and really say out loud the real baptismal formula (ALL of which is necessary for valid Baptism)—can’t simply just believe God coul miraculously give a person eternal life in Heaven without water…and without all the stuff I just mentioned that is required for valid baptism…
It amazes me that people seem to think that God is a liar by stating that something is necessary and then it turns out that it’s only contingent or that he would decieve others by stating something as necessary and then not mean it.

I’m also amazed that people think God is too busy or too weak to provide a saint in a miraculous way as he brought Timothy to the Ethiopian eunuch and somehow that is too much to believe nowadays.

Why should Our Lady appear to anybody? What was the point of Padre Pio’s bilocation? Why has St. Michael appeared to save the day any number of times?
 
I just provided a link to the primary document.

Look, here is another statement from Pius XII himself:

“Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”
That only makes sense if the act of love is the cause of a miraculous event “to obtain sanctifying grace” such as the appearance of a priest, Angel or Saint depending on the needs of the person.
 
That only makes sense if the act of love is the cause of a miraculous event “to obtain sanctifying grace” such as the appearance of a priest, Angel or Saint depending on the needs of the person.
Neither an angel nor a disembodied saint can validly administer Baptism.

Valid Baptism requires not only water but human hands and a human voice.

Saints won’t be corporeal again until the Final Judgement. Angels aren’t human.

So where is the “priest” you mention supposed to come from?

When has this ever been shown to have happened?

DJim
 
Neither an angel nor a disembodied saint can validly administer Baptism.

Valid Baptism requires not only water but human hands and a human voice.

Saints won’t be corporeal again until the Final Judgement. Angels aren’t human.

So where is the “priest” you mention supposed to come from?

When has this ever been shown to have happened?

DJim
I don’t know of any instances. On the other hand, there was incident where a Jewish man desired strongly to be Baptized, but no one could Baptize him. He tried to baptize himself. Pope Innocent III responded with this statement:

"You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: “I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

"We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: “Go baptize all nations in the name etc.” (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another… If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith. "(Denzinger 413)
 
St. Thomas Aquinas discuess this issue too:

8. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS

Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:

“I answer that,
the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

“Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.’”
 
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