Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[LoyalViews]

Do you agree, disagree, not sure? As for me, I Agree completely.

For thos of you who don’t know what it is, it is an official church teaching saying that

No person outside of the holy Roman Catholic Church, under the leadership of the Pope can enter into the gates of Heaven. But, if a person is not informed about this truth, God surely will not cast them to hell, for the poor soul was never told about Church, and therefor had no knowledge that it existed and only did what he was taught.

 

[bpbasilphx]

And can you quote the official source from which this comes?

 

[bpbasilphx]

And can you tell us the official source from which this comes?

 

[LoyalViews]

And can you tell us the official source from which this comes?

the Venerable Pope Pius XII said

those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church… We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be secure about their salvation.[Cf. Pius IX, Iam Vos Omnes, 13 Sept. 1868] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church."

As for the Orthodox taching the (arch?)Bishop Kalistos Ware has said

“Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church” (G. Florovsky, “Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church”, in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: “How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!” (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.

So therefore, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, includes members of the Orthodox Church.
bpbasilphx, I have seen that you are a big contributer to some of my threads. Thank for this, also!

 

[Rence]

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 *

 

[LoyalViews]

Well said Rence!

 

[MarineGuy]

Do you agree, disagree, not sure? As for me, I Agree completely.

For thos of you who don’t know what it is, it is an official church teaching saying that

No person outside of the holy Roman Catholic Church, under the leadership of the Pope can enter into the gates of Heaven. But, if a person is not informed about this truth, God surely will not cast them to hell, for the poor soul was never told about Church, and therefor had no knowledge that it existed and only did what he was taught.

Correction: God surely will not cast them into hell for that reason.

 

[LoyalViews]

Correction: God surely will not cast them into hell for that reason.

What reason are you talking about? If someone openly denies the Church, well then they cannot be saved … and Purgatory is repenting for ones sins

 

[bpbasilphx]

\846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: \

||While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.||

Both of these statements I will gladly subscribe to.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins"...For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church ... How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)

There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

 

[diggerdomer]

What reason are you talking about? If someone openly denies the Church, well then they cannot be saved … and Purgatory is repenting for ones sins

Read the Catechism

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Do you agree, disagree, not sure? As for me, I Agree completely.

For thos of you who don’t know what it is, it is an official church teaching saying that

No person outside of the holy Roman Catholic Church, under the leadership of the Pope can enter into the gates of Heaven. But, if a person is not informed about this truth, God surely will not cast them to hell, for the poor soul was never told about Church, and therefor had no knowledge that it existed and only did what he was taught.

It seems clear that every person must in some way be united to the Catholic Church to be saved. I lean heavily toward the view that this may be a non-visible unity, compatible with the theories of baptisms of blood or desire. You asked. I could be wrong. The Church is infallible. I make mistakes. Heh.

 

[LoyalViews]

“Dominus Iesus” states specifically that other Protestant “Churches” are not true churches, and only “Ecclesial Communities” so therefore did not have the means of salvation.

Pope Benedict has said that

"Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,”

The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession

The Pope has said that the people of the Orthodox church are indeed saved, for they have Apostolic Succession through St. Mark. He has said that they have “many elements of the truth”. Like I said in another post, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” does include the Orthodox church.

 

[ServantofMary]

And can you quote the official source from which this comes?

“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

“Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom ‘the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.’ The words of Christ are clear enough: ‘If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;’ ‘He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;’ ‘He who does not believe will be condemned;’ ‘He who does not believe is already condemned;’ ‘He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.’ The Apostle Paul says that such persons are ‘perverted and self-condemned;’ the Prince of the Apostles calls them ‘false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.’”

(Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moeroore, 7-8)

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

So therefore, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, includes members of the Orthodox Church. bpbasilphx, I have seen that you are a big contributer to some of my threads. Thank for this, also!

I just wanted to clarify that the Orthodox Church is not part of the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, according to the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, anyone who dies as an Orthodox will certainly go to hell as soon as they die.

The following infallible teaching is from the Council of Florence. In order to provide the context of this quote, this Council brought the Orthodox back into the Church (for a short time). At this council, they were required to renounce all of their error. They had to accept the filioque, for example, and agree that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

**Council of Florence: **“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 578; Denzinger 714.]

The Orthodox Church as such is both heretical and schismatic. It is heretical because it rejects 13 general councils of the Church and many dogmas, and it is schismatic because it rejects the Primacy of the Pope and refuses to submit to him (as evidenced by their rejection of 13 councils). Therefore, a person who dies a member of this false church will, without any doubt whatsoever, descended immediately “into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”. This is infallibly true and cannot be denied.

The same is infallibly true for anyone who dies as a Protestant, Jew, Muslim, infidel, or any other kind of unbeliever. It is impossible for anyone who is not a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. This is what has always been believed, and has been defined infallibly.

Here’s one more of hundreds of quotes that could be provided on this subject:

Pope Gregory XVI: Summo Jugiter Studio, 1832: "You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.’ Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: ‘Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ’ (Epsitle 141). Omitting other appropriate passages **which are almost numberless **in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise Saint Gregory the Great, who expressly testifies that this is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: **‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved’ **(Moral. in Job, 16.5). Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of the Lateran IV, these things are written: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.’ Finally, the same dogma is expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use (Creed of the Council of Trent), but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses (cf. Gregory XIII, Profession ‘Sanctissimus’) and that which other Eastern Catholics use (cf. Benedict XIV, Profession ‘Nuper ad Nos’)… We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies."

He had good reason to be concerned. This dogma has been attacked with such subtlety since he wrote that encyclical almost 200 years ago, that it has been reduced to a meaningless formula.

To conclude, the Orthodox sect as such is heretical and schismatic. No one who dies as a member of this sect will be saved. It is as simple as that.

To read many more magisterial quotes on this subject, here is a link.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

@jharek

Orthodox who deny purgatory, the infallibility of the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra, are actually heretics as well. If they were not heretics they would find it hard to justify their schism.

The also have heretical views on the authority of councils as well.

Paul

 

[LoyalViews]

It seems clear that every person must in some way be united to the Catholic Church to be saved. I lean heavily toward the view that this may be a non-visible unity, compatible with the theories of baptisms of blood or desire. You asked. I could be wrong. The Church is infallible. I make mistakes. Heh.

You have a valid argument, but if the person or group had no knowledge that the church existed, God would surely not send them to hell … I think. Am I misinformed?

It is the same to say that a baby was born, and died without Baptism. Would they go to hell? I think not. Some believe they will go to Limbo … but what about all the poor babies who were aborted? They won’t go to hell…

 

[LoyalViews]

But then again, those without baptism cannot be saved. So, that would mean that the babies would not be saved,

 

[Onegin]

Not of Paul Andrew but of the Church. The Orthodox knowingly rejected (and continue to reject) various points of Catholic doctrine (which is heresy) and have willingly placed themselves outside of the Church.

I think it is good to clarify this because so many people seem to confuse the Orthodox with Eastern Rite Catholics who are in communion with Rome and accept all Church doctrine.

Regarding EENS (which I believe was approved at the Council of Florence?), I’m not a Feenyite, meaning that I hold to the traditional teaching that there are three types of Baptism, that of water, blood and desire. I won’t explain it since there’s tons of literature out there but a bunch of Popes affirmed this interpretation though, for whatever reason, Fr. Feeny and his followers chose to reject it in favor of a more legalistic interpretation.

 

[bpbasilphx]

@jharek

Orthodox who deny purgatory, the infallibility of the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra, are actually heretics as well. If they were not heretics they would find it hard to justify their schism.

The also have heretical views on the authority of councils as well.

Paul

**And if the Latins were not heretics, they would find it hard to justify purgatory, papal infallibility, and other novelties which they introduced to perpetuate their schism.

See how you sound, Paul?**