Extra ordinary minister of the eucharist and mortal sin

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If the communion recipients were aware the pedophile priest and to a lesser degree perhaps, the EMHC offering them communion was in such a state of sin I expect the recipients would be outraged. The only way this sort of thing, an abomination in my mind, can work is through secrecy. In the case of the priests I have serious questions about the validity of the consecration itself; at least the EMHC question does not impact the consecration. To me the EMHC in a state of grave sin is in some perhaps unexplainable way soiling that Eucharist that I’m about to receive. Christ was mortified once by His choice, we don’t need these EMHCs doing it over and over again through their fault.

A priest who celebrates the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin does not invalidate the Sacrament.

The belief that it does is the heresy of Donatism which states that the validity of the sacraments depends on the character of the minister.

 

[theswan]

I am not Saint Paul or Solomon. I am a sinful man.

I went to confession with the priest in charge of our Parish and he accepted my confession and comforted me as I was crying about my sinful nature. He said “We all sin”
He said I would sin again. My “job” was to try as best I could and pray for the strenght to avoid sin.

I sat there across from Father crying as II did not want to lose my ministry of helping the elderly. He made it quite clear that God’s love transcends any sin. I was not told to step down nor was it even brought up. Father knows I serve both with the Eucharist and as a choir member and standby cantor.

Shim, I know your heart is in the right place, but many if not most people can not live up to the full measure of a Saint, that is why we confess. Confession is not easy for a sinner. To talk face to face each week or so confessing the same sin is humiliating but done to save our inmortal soul.

I suggest you lighten up a bit. But I also know you believe in this punishing God who gives us passions and toss’s us in hell if we fall to them. Ok maybe Adam put this on us but my spirit tells me God is merciful not vengeful.

Glen

 

[ProVobis]

Confession is not easy for a sinner.

Even more difficult when you consider the inconvenience of an extra trip to Church (usually) and/or having to wait in a long confession line. But rules are rules; Vatican II didn’t change those rules. If anything the problem is the undue pressure on those in attendance to receive.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If the communion recipients were aware the pedophile priest and to a lesser degree perhaps, the EMHC offering them communion was in such a state of sin I expect the recipients would be outraged. The only way this sort of thing, an abomination in my mind, can work is through secrecy. In the case of the priests I have serious questions about the validity of the consecration itself; at least the EMHC question does not impact the consecration. To me the EMHC in a state of grave sin is in some perhaps unexplainable way soiling that Eucharist that I’m about to receive. Christ was mortified once by His choice, we don’t need these EMHCs doing it over and over again through their fault.

St. Francis disagrees with you. Remember the story when he defended a priest accused of living a sinful life and how he would kiss the hands of the priest first even if an angel were to appear before him and the priest.

I am afraid you yourself are mistaken here in your belief. A sinful priest can validly consecrate bread and wine. The Church teaches so:

CCC 1584 Since it is ultimately Christ who acts and effects salvation through the ordained minister, the unworthiness of the latter does not prevent Christ from acting.76 St. Augustine states this forcefully:

As for the proud minister, he is to be ranked with the devil. Christ’s gift is not thereby profaned: what flows through him keeps its purity, and what passes through him remains dear and reaches the fertile earth. . . . The spiritual power of the sacrament is indeed comparable to light: those to be enlightened receive it in its purity, and if it should pass through defiled beings, it is not itself defiled.

Also, I cannot believe that you would think the Eucharist can be soiled by sin. It cannot. Jesus cannot be tainted by sin. If you believe in that, then your belief in the Real Presence is faulty at best.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

St. Francis disagrees with you. Remember the story when he defended a priest accused of living a sinful life and how he would kiss the hands of the priest first even if an angel were to appear before him and the priest.

I am afraid you yourself are mistaken here in your belief. A sinful priest can validly consecrate bread and wine. The Church teaches so:

Also, I cannot believe that you would think the Eucharist can be soiled by sin. It cannot. Jesus cannot be tainted by sin. If you believe in that, then your belief in the Real Presence is faulty at best.

I believe my actual wording presented a case of perceived soiling, I even said my feeling was not something I could explain. I have no distorted perception of the Real Presence. I do however have a genuine distaste for hypocrisy and a sinful priest is a hypocrite. To me a sinful priest isn’t one who on occasion finds himself in sin, we all do at times, I mean an obstinate, habitual sinner as the pedophile priests were and are. As for the EMHC issue, I just avoid them whenever I possibly can.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I believe my actual wording presented a case of perceived soiling, I even said my feeling was not something I could explain. I have no distorted perception of the Real Presence. I do however have a genuine distaste for hypocrisy and a sinful priest is a hypocrite. To me a sinful priest isn’t one who on occasion finds himself in sin, we all do at times, I mean an obstinate, habitual sinner as the pedophile priests were and are. As for the EMHC issue, I just avoid them whenever I possibly can.

The perception would still be false, no matter how much its just a matter of opinion. In fact, what I have quoted from the CCC which in turn quotes from St. Augustine says it all, Christ is the light that cannot be defiled even if this light passes through defiled beings. When receiving the Eucharist, we should be worried about the state of our own souls rather than those who minister it to us. Its between them and God that same as our own sins are between ourselves alone and God.

 

[alvin_mcnabb]

Morning folks:
I’m an extra ordinary minister of the eucharist at our parish. I’ve commited a mortal sin (and we don’t have confession on Sunday), can I still give the host to our parishners?
God Bless
Grapes

Well I will bring up something that no one else has. You cannot commit a mortal sin unless you are aware of it and you want to do it. It isn’t one of those things that can sneak up on you unannounced and all of a sudden you are in a state of Mortal Sin:bigyikes: In the words of the late comedian George Carlin, " You gotta wanta" A Priest who consecrates the Host while in state of mortal sin, commits the sin of sacrilege. A communicant who receives Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin does the same thing, It would seem logical to me that the Extraordinary Minister is bound by the rules as everyone else.

That being said, why would you even want to distribute Holy Communion, knowing that you have essentially turned your back on and separated yourself from God? I mean you have willfully ,deliberately and knowingly separated yourself from Him . Why not just wait until you receive absolution from the Priest. That would certainly make sense would it not? I have never seen an Extraordinary Minister not receive Holy Communion so you would probably stick out like a sore thumb for not receiving.

That is of course assuming that you do not believe, as do many 'that you have the absolute right to distribute any time you want. I well rememebr the Liturgical Director at my old parish. She would always go up to the Sanctuary during the consecration, stand beside the Priest and wait to distribute, even if there were only 10 or 15 people . She honestly believed that she was entitled to distribute any time she wanted.

I hope that is not your opinion :

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well I will bring up something that no one else has. You cannot commit a mortal sin unless you are aware of it and you want to do it. It isn’t one of those things that can sneak up on you unannounced and all of a sudden you are in a state of Mortal Sin:bigyikes: In the words of the late comedian George Carli, " You gotta wanta"

That being said, why would you even want to distribute Holy Communion, knowing that you have essentially turned your back on and separated yourself from God. I mean you have deliberately and knowingly separated yourself from Him . Why not just wait until you receive absolution from the Priest. That would certainly make sense would it not? I have never seen an Extraornary Minister not receive Holy Communion so you would probably stick out like a sore thumb for not receiving.

That is of course assuming that you do not believe, as do many that you have the absolute right to distribute any time you want. I well rememebr the Liturgical Director at my old parish. She would always go up to the Sanctuary during the consecration, stand beside the Priest and wnt to distribute, even if there were only 10 or 15 people . She honestly believed that she was entitled to distribute any time she wanted.

I hope that is not your ipinion as wellthumbsup:attending:thumbsup:

Here’s the other thing other people haven’t brought up. When we are receiving we always say that only God knows the state of that person’s soul. So why are we concerned about the one distributing Communion? Who are we to know the state of their soul? And who are we even to have that right to know that something so intimate that its reserved for God alone?

 

[alvin_mcnabb]

Here’s the other thing other people haven’t brought up. When we are receiving we always say that only God knows the state of that person’s soul. So why are we concerned about the one distributing Communion? Who are we to know the state of their soul? And who are we even to have that right to know that something so intimate that its reserved for God alone?

I am not at all concerned. But the OP should be as he does know the state of his soul, as does everyone who has committed a mortal sin. Remember, grave matter, sufficient reflection and FULL consent of the will

 

[JReducation]

Slow down folks. There are several points here that have to be clarified.

1. As it has been poined out, it is heresy to believe that the sin of the minister has any effect on the Hoy Eucharist or any of the sacraments.
2. The Church has never taught that a priest in a state of mortal sin may not celebrate mass. The teaching is that any person in a state of mortal sin must go to confession before receiving Holy Communion. However, the Church also allows for a person to make an act of contrition, receive Holy Communion and go to confession as soon as it is possible. Therefore, a priest who commits a mortal sin does not have to refrain from celebrating mass, because he can’t go to confession immediately. This may be the case, when he is the only priest in the parish. He can’t stop the Sunday mass to go find another priest to hear his confession and he cannot celebrate mass without going to communion himself.
3. As to the EMHC, the same rule appies to him or her. If he can go to confession, he should. If he cannot, he must make an act of contrition and go as soon as it is possible.
4. The rule aboiut not receiving Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin applies to those who have another way out. A person need not give any indication to those around him that he or she is in a state of mortal sin. If excusing yourself, can raise some eyebrows, you should choose the course that causes the least amount of scandal. That could be serving as EMHC for that day and not receiving Holy Communion yourself. Most of the time, people are not looking to see if the EMHC receives or not. There may be a reason for not receiving, such as having received at the mass just before this one. You should not be receiving at two masses back to back anyway. Distributing the consecrated host does not taint the host in any way.
5. As for sinful priests, the great saints such as Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila, when confronted with this question, both answered the same way, because they understood that the priesthood is not diminished by the sins of the priest. In fact, both of them were known to regularly receive the sacraments from priests who were public sinners. One of them was a regular confessor to Teresa of Avila while visiting her sister for a while.

Even Canon Law allows for the most sinful priest to absolve sins and hear a cofession. Even a priest who has been dismissed from the clerical state and has been forcefully laicized can hear your confession, if you have no other priest around and you have an emergency. In that case, the sacrament is both valid and licit. The emergency must be a life and death situation. The ontological state of the priest does not change because of his moral situation.

All that being said, everyone should go to confession for mortal sins before Holy Communion. But that is not always possible and the Church understands this. There is a difference between that and avoiding going to confession. This is probably happens more often in mission territories where the priest comes once a month to celebrate the sacraments and the other Sundays Holy Commnion is distributed by an EMHC or a deacon. But that’s not to say that it cannot happen in our country for other reasons.

While there is a rule about this, it does not say that every single case is the same. If you can go to confession, the you must do so. That’s the rule. I have never heard differently.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CradleCath]

Wow! I grapple with this as I’m often in a state of mortal sin. I hate this about myself but sex is very important part of my life. I am not married but adore and love my mate. Due to finicial reasons, marriage is out!

What am I to do? Not serve the folks at the local nursing home? I feel God does forgive me. I always confess except one time in am emergency. I did not partake of the Holy meal but gave it out.
I fear telling my priest outright that maybe I should step down as I love my service to the old. The priest does hear my confessions and has not yet told me to step down.
As I am a sober alcoholic and prone to excess, sex is not different for me. I wish I was chaste but am not an may not ever be.

 

[JReducation]

I am not at all concerned. But the OP should be as he does know the state of his soul, as does everyone who has committed a mortal sin. Remember, grave matter, sufficient reflection and FULL consent of the will

Usually, if you really don’t know if you have committed a mortal sin, then you do not meet the second criterion, “sufficient reflection” or you may not really know the rules. In either case, knowledge is impaired. However, you do have a moral duty to find out so as not to end up in the same situation in the future. In this case, you may have committed a mortal sin, but you may be less culpable or not culpable at all, depending on the matter and what you thought at the time. Confusion on the part of the sinner can obscure the issue and mitigate culpability. This gets very compicated and it’s best left to the confessor and the penitent to sort it out, rather than an internet forum.

We can cite the rules, but we can’t cite all of the exceptions here. A confessor can do that much better.

There are two people on CAF who are very good with these kinds of questions: Fr. Vincent and Michelle Arnold, if anyone wants an answer that is orthodox. Just write them, if you don’t have someone locally who can answer the question.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Slow down folks. There are several points here that have to be clarified.

1. As it has been poined out, it is heresy to believe that the sin of the minister has any effect on the Hoy Eucharist or any of the sacraments.
2. The Church has never taught that a priest in a state of mortal sin may not celebrate mass. The teaching is that any person in a state of mortal sin must go to confession before receiving Holy Communion. However, the Church also allows for a person to make an act of contrition, receive Holy Communion and go to confession as soon as it is possible. Therefore, a priest who commits a mortal sin does not have to refrain from celebrating mass, because he can’t go to confession immediately. This may be the case, when he is the only priest in the parish. He can’t stop the Sunday mass to go find another priest to hear his confession and he cannot celebrate mass without going to communion himself.
3. As to the EMHC, the same rule appies to him or her. If he can go to confession, he should. If he cannot, he must make an act of contrition and go as soon as it is possible.
4. The rule aboiut not receiving Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin applies to those who have another way out. A person need not give any indication to those around him that he or she is in a state of mortal sin. If excusing yourself, can raise some eyebrows, you should choose the course that causes the least amount of scandal. That could be serving as EMHC for that day and not receiving Holy Communion yourself. Most of the time, people are not looking to see if the EMHC receives or not. There may be a reason for not receiving, such as having received at the mass just before this one. You should not be receiving at two masses back to back anyway. Distributing the consecrated host does not taint the host in any way.
5. As for sinful priests, the great saints such as Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila, when confronted with this question, both answered the same way, because they understood that the priesthood is not diminished by the sins of the priest. In fact, both of them were known to regularly receive the sacraments from priests who were public sinners. One of them was a regular confessor to Teresa of Avila while visiting her sister for a while.

Even Canon Law allows for the most sinful priest to absolve sins and hear a cofession. Even a priest who has been dismissed from the clerical state and has been forcefully laicized can hear your confession, if you have no other priest around and you have an emergency. In that case, the sacrament is both valid and licit. The emergency must be a life and death situation. The ontological state of the priest does not change because of his moral situation.

All that being said, everyone should go to confession for mortal sins before Holy Communion. But that is not always possible and the Church understands this. There is a difference between that and avoiding going to confession. This is probably happens more often in mission territories where the priest comes once a month to celebrate the sacraments and the other Sundays Holy Commnion is distributed by an EMHC or a deacon. But that’s not to say that it cannot happen in our country for other reasons.

While there is a rule about this, it does not say that every single case is the same. If you can go to confession, the you must do so. That’s the rule. I have never heard differently.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you. Sometimes emotion overpowers what we know to be correct.

 

[theswan]

Sorry but I do not believe you know so much about hell and heaven. Afterall it is a mystery. I do not care how many Saints you quote, they had but visions and they contridict each other as does the bible. Ie “I came to Save/I came to have nation lift sword to sword” What is is save or destroy?

Sure sin is not good it is a “miss” of God’s perfection but please know we are not God! We are sinful by nature. You are making heaven seem like a darn bore! No marriage? You man what God has put together will “unbond” in heaven? No “On Earth as in heaven” says His prayer. Marriage is a forever bond unless Jesus lied (Which He cannot do)

Lighten up man! God is Love, God is truth. Do not place your fears upon the Almighty.

As per my Parish, I will serve in the nursing home today as I have for 4 years. I will uphold the Eucharist with all the dignity it deserves. I am honored God choose me to serve. I will not let my sins get in the way of their salvation and Grace

Glen

 

[JReducation]

Sorry but I do not believe you know so much about hell and heaven. Afterall it is a mystery. I do not care how many Saints you quote, they had but visions and they contridict each other as does the bible. Ie “I came to Save/I came to have nation lift sword to sword” What is is save or destroy?

Sure sin is not good it is a “miss” of God’s perfection but please know we are not God! We are sinful by nature. You are making heaven seem like a darn bore! No marriage? You man what God has put together will “unbond” in heaven? No “On Earth as in heaven” says His prayer. Marriage is a forever bond unless Jesus lied (Which He cannot do)

Lighten up man! God is Love, God is truth. Do not place your fears upon the Almighty.

As per my Parish, I will serve in the nursing home today as I have for 4 years. I will uphold the Eucharist with all the dignity it deserves. I am honored God choose me to serve. I will not let my sins get in the way of their salvation and Grace

Glen

I’m not sure how you got marriage into this, but no there is no mariage in heaven. A marriage is over when one party dies. That is the teaching of the Church and it comes from scripture itself when it tells us that in heaven no one is given or taken in marriage.

How did the saints’ visions of heaven and hell fit into this equation? We’re not talking about mysticism here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[theswan]

If that is the Church’s teaching, I’ll abide by it. Just curious why we “cleave” only to be split after death.

Well the Church was wrong before…

Gee was that a new can of worms? lol

I mean I’m named at my confirmation in 1997 as Thomas the doubter. Are we not supposed to question our faith?

Hell we burned people, we called science the devil etc now we say we were wrong?

I will as I’ve said accept that the Church says we are no longer married but in the back of my mind, I believe we are supposed to question authority as did our apostle’s.
Saul turned his back on the Authority of the day did he not?

Glen Thomas Heinsohn doubter