Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers handling the Ciborium

[CMP2]

Update:
Since I started this thread our Priest has discontinued EEMC taking the Ciborium in or out of the Tabernacle. He did some research and based on what he found it was not allowed anymore.
So, all things work out according to God’s will.
Thank you for all the feedback and for helping me see that this decision was the right one for this Priest to make for our Parish.
God bless, c.

 

[JReducation]

I must be lucky, because I have never seen the EMHC open a tabernacle or handle the ciborium. In my former parish I have saw the non-clerical friars do it in their private chapel. But that was a different situation. The chapel is within the cloister and they take communion to their eldery or sick friars who are in bed. In other words, the chapel is not part of the parish, because the friary is not part of the parish. The friary is the Motherhouse of the community. There are about 50 friars, only three are ordained. Two of them work for the parish and one works at the local hospital. The usual arrangement is that one Friar priest says the parish mass in the morning, one celebrates mass a the hospital and one celebrates mass in the friary chapel.

Other than that, I have neer seen this in my life, not among our friars. In my current parish we have seven friars, three are priests. We have three secular deacons. We also have EMHC. But the tabernacle is only opened and closed by the priest or the deacon. Even the superior never goes near the tabernacle, except to pray. I should add, the superior is not a priest.

I don’t know what they do in the friary chapel as it is two miles away from the parish. We don’t have a residence on the parish campus. There is no reason for the parishioners ever to go there.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[zab]

I must be lucky, because I have never seen the EMHC open a tabernacle or handle the ciborium. In my former parish I have saw the non-clerical friars do it in their private chapel. But that was a different situation. The chapel is within the cloister and they take communion to their eldery or sick friars who are in bed. In other words, the chapel is not part of the parish, because the friary is not part of the parish. The friary is the Motherhouse of the community. There are about 50 friars, only three are ordained. Two of them work for the parish and one works at the local hospital. The usual arrangement is that one Friar priest says the parish mass in the morning, one celebrates mass a the hospital and one celebrates mass in the friary chapel.

Other than that, I have neer seen this in my life, not among our friars. In my current parish we have seven friars, three are priests. We have three secular deacons. We also have EMHC. But the tabernacle is only opened and closed by the priest or the deacon. Even the superior never goes near the tabernacle, except to pray. I should add, the superior is not a priest.

I don’t know what they do in the friary chapel as it is two miles away from the parish. We don’t have a residence on the parish campus. There is no reason for the parishioners ever to go there.

Fraternally,

JR

You are blessed to have so many priests and religious serving your parish. In our parish we have one priest, the pastor. There are approximately 1200 families in our parish. A retired priest helps out with Confession and the Saturday vigil Mass one Sunday a month. We have approximately 85 homebound parishioners. Some of these are in assisted living facilities. We have 10 Communion Routes to the homebound. So every Sunday morning we have 10 Extraordinary Mininisters of Holy Communion to the Homebound that will be approaching the tabernacle sometime following the first Sunday Mass. Occassionally, Hosts are returned to the tablernacle when when we have been unable to give Communion to someone on our route. EM’s to the homebound are only allowed to go on their routes on Sunday. Our pastor also visits some of the homebound at least once a month, usually First Friday.

 

[FrDavid96]

Are EEM supposed to open the Tabernacle and lift the Ciborium and cover to count Consecrated Hosts before Mass.

Not specifically forbidden, but improper especially if it’s done while there are people in the church preparing for Mass. There’s no good reason for it, and every reason not to do it.

Are they supposed to carry the Ciborium from the Tabernacle to the altar after the Consecration for the Priest. Our Tabernacle is in the center of a high altar behind him. Then put it back after Communion.

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are not to approach the altar (that is, IF they do) until after the priest has received Communion himself. The priest or the deacon should be the one to open the tabernacle and remove the reserved Eucharist.

This is to be done during the fraction, and not “after the consecration.”

Remember that no one is an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion unless he is an instituted Acolyte, or has been approinted specifically by the bishop for a period of time. A priest may (only if strictly necessary) appoint EMHCs for a particular ocasion. If a priest appoints a EMHC to help with the distribution at Mass, that person is no longer an EMHC once the distribution of Communion is ended. They must be appointed each time. The same goes for those deputed to take Communion to the sick. This is the pastor’s responsibility. He may appoint qualified laypersons, but again only if there is a genuine need. They must be appointed in one way or another each time (even if that appointment is done silently).

The pastor has the responsibility to diligently safeguard the key to the tabernacle. No one should be removing the Eucharist from the tabernacle without the express permission of (a) priest.

 

[CMP2]

Dear Zab:

I would like to ask those who have answered today, Fr. David and JReducation for example, about one sentence that Zab wrote about an EMHC taking the Eucharist to shut ins.

It is: Occassionally, Hosts are returned to the tablernacle when when we have been unable to give Communion to someone on our route. (Zab)

I don’t want to “nit pik” but something here seems wrong.
Are Hosts not to be consumed immediately? I know that one cannot “self commune” so what could be done here to remedy this situation.

If there are some Consecrated Hosts not received by the shut in etc. could this not be remedied by a better control on how many are given to an EMHC. And if they can’t be consumed should a Priest not return Jesus to the Tabernacle and Ciborium?

 

[zab]

Dear Zab:

I would like to ask those who have answered today, Fr. David and JReducation for example, about one sentence that Zab wrote about an EMHC taking the Eucharist to shut ins.

It is: Occassionally, Hosts are returned to the tablernacle when when we have been unable to give Communion to someone on our route. (Zab)

I don’t want to “nit pik” but something here seems wrong.
Are Hosts not to be consumed immediately? I know that one cannot “self commune” so what could be done here to remedy this situation.

If there are some Consecrated Hosts not received by the shut in etc. could this not be remedied by a better control on how many are given to an EMHC. And if they can’t be consumed should a Priest not return Jesus to the Tabernacle and Ciborium?

We do not take more Hosts than the number of people we have on our route. Situations arise on occassion when someone on the route does not receive that day. We call beforehand and they know we are coming. However, with some individuals problems occassionally arise. We are properly trained.

 

[JReducation]

Dear Zab:

I would like to ask those who have answered today, Fr. David and JReducation for example, about one sentence that Zab wrote about an EMHC taking the Eucharist to shut ins.

It is: Occassionally, Hosts are returned to the tablernacle when when we have been unable to give Communion to someone on our route. (Zab)

I don’t want to “nit pik” but something here seems wrong.
Are Hosts not to be consumed immediately? I know that one cannot “self commune” so what could be done here to remedy this situation.

If there are some Consecrated Hosts not received by the shut in etc. could this not be remedied by a better control on how many are given to an EMHC. And if they can’t be consumed should a Priest not return Jesus to the Tabernacle and Ciborium?

I’m not exactly sure why one would assume that the host has to be consumed immediately by the person who is carrying the Eucharist to the sick or the shut-in. You lost me.

There are times when you get there and the person is not available, but you did not know because no one informed the parish office.

In our parish, becuse the friars do not live on the premises, the Church may be closed when the EMHC returns. In this case, it would make sense to consume the consecrated host or return it to the friary up the road.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[FrDavid96]

Dear Zab:

I would like to ask those who have answered today, Fr. David and JReducation for example, about one sentence that Zab wrote about an EMHC taking the Eucharist to shut ins.

It is: Occassionally, Hosts are returned to the tablernacle when when we have been unable to give Communion to someone on our route. (Zab)

I don’t want to “nit pik” but something here seems wrong.
Are Hosts not to be consumed immediately? I know that one cannot “self commune” so what could be done here to remedy this situation.

If there are some Consecrated Hosts not received by the shut in etc. could this not be remedied by a better control on how many are given to an EMHC. And if they can’t be consumed should a Priest not return Jesus to the Tabernacle and Ciborium?

I don’t know if the current liturgical laws address this issue (perhaps they do, but I haven’t seen them and can’t find them).

Therefore I’ll refer to the Roman Ritual Rite of Communion for the Sick #23 my paraphrase:
The priest should always take along an extra consecrated Host (“just in case”).
The extra host, if there is one left, is then returned to the tabernacle with due solemnity.

That’s how we were taught to do it.

I suppose that a duly apointed layperson would do the same thing, except that this might not always be possible.

My opinion (and that’s all it is) is that a layperson should make every effort to return the extra host(s) to the tabernacle as soon as possible (in other words, go directly back to the church). If that person is unable to return the Host to the tabernacle because it’s locked, or knows ahead of time that it will be, or is unable to return to church, that person should consume the extra Host immediately after visiting the sick. Just my opinion.

Edit: as for the tabernacle being locked, I don’t mean to imply that it should ever be unlocked, but rather that the priest might not be available to open it again, or the key is otherwise unavailable.

 

[zab]

In our parish, becuse the friars do not live on the premises, the Church may be closed when the EMHC returns. In this case, it would make sense to consume the consecrated host or return it to the friary up the road.

Fraternally,

JR

You gave an excellent example. We have been instructed that our first option is to try to return the Host to the tabernacle. However, sometimes one would not be able to return the Host in a proper time period, such as you mentioned. And then, it would be proper to consume the consecrated Host.

 

[zab]

Not specifically forbidden, but improper especially if it’s done while there are people in the church preparing for Mass. There’s no good reason for it, and every reason not to do it.QUOTE]

I disagree. Our parish is fortunate to have had good pastors who careful to do things the proper way.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the way things are done particularly in large parishes that only have one priest. Having sacristans is something fairly recent (within the past 9 or so years) in our parish. The priest and deacon used to do all the setting up, but they have found that sacritans to be very helpful in the preparation so they can have more time to spiritually prepare while they are vesting and not have to worry about other things.

We have several sacristans and we are assigned either on the weekdays or one on the Sunday Masses or Vigil Mass to prepare for the Mass by getting everything ready and put in it’s proper place. We count the hosts and put out the ciboria and wine and the cups and purificators, turn the lights on and microphones. We set up the books and put out everything in its proper place.
In order to know how many unconsecrated hosts to put in the ciboria, we have to have some idea of how many consecrated ones are in the tabernacle. So we open the tabernacle and make a quick estimate. The aim is not to consecrate too many more than necessary.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96;4399973:

Not specifically forbidden, but improper especially if it’s done while there are people in the church preparing for Mass. There’s no good reason for it, and every reason not to do it.QUOTE]

I disagree. Our parish is fortunate to have had good pastors who careful to do things the proper way.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the way things are done particularly in large parishes that only have one priest. Having sacristans is something fairly recent (within the past 9 or so years) in our parish. The priest and deacon used to do all the setting up, but they have found that sacritans to be very helpful in the preparation so they can have more time to spiritually prepare while they are vesting and not have to worry about other things.

We have several sacristans and we are assigned either on the weekdays or one on the Sunday Masses or Vigil Mass to prepare for the Mass by getting everything ready and put in it’s proper place. We count the hosts and put out the ciboria and wine and the cups and purificators, turn the lights on and microphones. We set up the books and put out everything in its proper place.
In order to know how many unconsecrated hosts to put in the ciboria, we have to have some idea of how many consecrated ones are in the tabernacle. So we open the tabernacle and make a quick estimate. The aim is not to consecrate too many more than necessary.

I’m not so sure we disagree. Having a good sacristan certainly helps. I never said anything to the contrary. I was speaking directly to the 1st post, about having someone go to the tabernacle just before Mass (while people are praying) and counting the hosts.
Just for the record, in the very large parishes that I have been assigned to, it was the responsibility of someone from the first Mass to put out the hosts for the next Mass (that avoided unnecessarily opening the tabernacle before Mass).
Did I say anything at all to indicate I felt the priests at your church were anything other than “good pastors who carefully do things the proper way”? If I did, my sincere apoligies.
My post was a direct response to the question posed by CMP2. If I had anything “critical” to say about what you posted, I would have done so with a direct response. I did not.

 

[Cathryn]

Sacristans are sometimes given this job by their priests. It is under the priests authority that it is done.

I am a traditional latin Mass sacristan. I ask my pastor how many communion breads to put in the ciborium. My pastor goes to the tabernacle and lets me know how many to put in the ciborium. It only takes a minute of his time.

It seems to be more accepted in Novus Ordo Masses for sacristans to go into the tabernacle and count themselves, but with the authority of the priest.

 

[zab]

zab;4401355:

I’m not so sure we disagree. Having a good sacristan certainly helps. I never said anything to the contrary. I was speaking directly to the 1st post, about having someone go to the tabernacle just before Mass (while people are praying) and counting

the hosts.
Just for the record, in the very large parishes that I have been assigned to, it was the responsibility of someone from the first Mass to put out the hosts for the next Mass (that avoided unnecessarily opening the tabernacle before Mass).
Did I say anything at all to indicate I felt the priests at your church were anything other than “good pastors who carefully do things the proper way”? If I did, my sincere apoligies.
My post was a direct response to the question posed by CMP2. If I had anything “critical” to say about what you posted, I would have done so with a direct response. I did not.
Thanks for the clarity. I wouldn’t want for someone to misinterpret your previous answer based on previous posts. I might add that “just before Mass (while people are praying)” could mean 45 minutes or so before Mass when people are going to Confession and praying the rosary. So we can agree that there is reason for a lay person to count (estimate is probably a better choice of word) hosts prior to Mass.

 

[JReducation]

I have never seen this done by a sacristan. I have lived in many religious houses where we always had sacristans. This was always done by an ordained friar (deacon or priest).

What I have seen is that the older hosts from the tabernacle are brought out at communion time and used. Everything left over goes back to the tabernacle. This ensures that consecrated hosts are used while they are still fresh, since the have no preservatives this has to be done on a regular schedule. The friar who just celebrated the mass has an idea of how much is in the tabernacle and can inform the next friar, if there is a next mass.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96;4401504:

Thanks for the clarity. I wouldn’t want for someone to misinterpret your previous answer based on previous posts. I might add that “just before Mass (while people are praying)” could mean 45 minutes or so before Mass when people are going to Confession and praying the rosary. So we can agree that there is reason for a lay person to count hosts prior to Mass.

Here’s my point:

Having someone open the tabernacle and stand in front of it counting hosts would easily be a distraction to people trying to pray. A distraction; not a scandal, but something that could easily detract from a prayerful atmosphere, especially to those who want to look toward Christ in the tabernacle as they pray.

45 minutes before Mass is one thing, but doing so “while there are people in the church preparing for Mass” (which is what I said) is different. The closer it is to the beginning of the Mass, the less appropriate it becomes.

The word in the first post that I take issue with is “counting.” How long does it take to “count” to 300? to give a low number!
If one is “counting” doesn’t that mean that there’s another ciborium and one is moving hosts from one to the other?
Why “count”? Why not just use good sense and experience to know approximately how many hosts are there with just a quick glance? This takes what? a few seconds? I venture to guess that’s what you are doing at your own parish. But that’s not what was asked. The poster asked about “counting” and that was how I responded.

Edit: as I read JRs post above (which showed up while I was typing the 1st time) I would add that it’s more appropriate for this to be done by a priest or deacon.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96;4401504:

Thanks for the clarity. I wouldn’t want for someone to misinterpret your previous answer based on previous posts. I might add that “just before Mass (while people are praying)” could mean 45 minutes or so before Mass when people are going to Confession and praying the rosary. So we can agree that there is reason for a lay person to count (estimate is probably a better choice of word) hosts prior to Mass.

BINGO!

Estimate is the key word!

 

[JReducation]

Edit: as I read JRs post above (which showed up while I was typing the 1st time) I would add that it’s more appropriate for this to be done by a priest or deacon.

Father David:

That’s what I was saying father. We have sacristans in our fraternities, but opening and closing the tabernacle is done by an ordained brother, not a non-clerical brother.

The only time that I haver ever seen an non-clerical brother open the tabernacle was at the Mother House to bring communion to the older friars who are in bed and cannot get up for the conventual liturgy. Even then it was rare. Most of the time the consecrated host came directly from the altar. The friar would take it and go to the infirm or older friar’s cell directly. That’s the usual practice.

Now, in our local parish, we have seven Brothers. Three are clerics. We also have a secular deacon, soon two secular deacons. Even though one of our friars is in a wheelchair, unless there is no deacon around, the deacon retrieves the Eucharist from the tabernacle. If there is no deacon, then a non-clerical brother will help him by going to the tabernacle, because it’s too high to reach from a sitting position.

I have never seen a sacristan count hosts. The celebrant or deacon who puts away the consecrated hosts has a good idea whether we have enough for the next mass, if there is a next mass.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[zab]

In our parish, only the priest or deacon goes to the tabernacle to retrieve the Hosts at Mass. And usually it is the priest that returns the remaining Hosts to the tabernacle after Communion.

 

[FrDavid96]

Now that we seem to have cleared up the “counting” part, what I would say is this:

A cleric should always be the one to open the tabernacle (in Mass or outside of Mass). I will not say that it is an outright abuse for the laity to open the tabernacle, but I will say that so long as a cleric is available, he should be the one to do it. (available and should are key words there)

Further, no one (cleric or laity) should be opening the tabernacle without a good reason. If the necessity of opening the tabernacle can be easily avoided, then everything within reason should be done to make that happen.

 

[zab]

Bingo has been eliminated from our parish for over a decade.