Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form Side-By-Side Comparison from LEGITIMATE source

[xixxvmcm85]

Hello all!

I’m in the process of making a flyer for various parishes in my archdiocese to inform the Faithful about the commencement of an EF Mass. I’m including a list of “Helpful Online Resources” which I believe ought to have a link to a website that offers a side-by-side comparison of the Novus Ordo and the TLM. I’ve found lots of such comparisons online, but the problem is that they come from websites whose fidelity to the Church is questionable (e.g. comes from a schismatic or highly critical source), whose website is very amateurish, or whose web address is quite convoluted and “busy”.

Do any of you know of an online side-by-side comparison of the two forms of Mass that:

1. Comes from a non-schismatic group (and non-controversial group, so FishEaters is out),
2. Is presented professionally and is easy to navigate,
3. Has a relatively short web address?

 

[larsont7]

UnaVoce has some good resources: unavoce.org/resources/

I don’t see what’s so controversial about FishEaters (the main site, not the forum). There is some very good information on there in the “Being Catholic” section: fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html

I actually find the FishEaters forums to be less controversial than the CA forums, but that’s just me.

Of course, there are many good resources at the Fraternity of St. Peter’s website as well: fssp.org/en/index.htm

 

[xixxvmcm85]

UnaVoce has some good resources: unavoce.org/resources/

Thank you for this! I’ll start looking this over.

I don’t see what’s so controversial about FishEaters (the main site, not the forum). There is some very good information on there in the “Being Catholic” section: fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html

I actually find the FishEaters forums to be less controversial than the CA forums, but that’s just me.

While I generally agree with you, this flyer has to pass the scrutiny of the Archbishop and the various Parish Priests of whom I’ll be asking permission to leave these flyers in the -]naves/-] narthices of various churches. I’ve been told to include resources that are “strictly informative” and offer very little (if any) commentary. As you could imagine, a person interested enough in the TLM to go through the arduous process of making a side-be-side comparison of the liturgies has likely included her opinions; making this endeavor quite laborious for me! This is why FE is out, particularly so due to the ease with which a visitor could stumble across the forums, which do not necessarily represent the opinions of the FE administrators.

Of course, there are many good resources at the Fraternity of St. Peter’s website as well: fssp.org/en/index.htm

Ah! FSSP. I hadn’t thought to check! Thanks again.

 

[Megan7]

UnaVoce has some good resources: unavoce.org/resources/

I don’t see what’s so controversial about FishEaters (the main site, not the forum). There is some very good information on there in the “Being Catholic” section: fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html

I actually find the FishEaters forums to be less controversial than the CA forums, but that’s just me.

Of course, there are many good resources at the Fraternity of St. Peter’s website as well: fssp.org/en/index.htm

Thanks for the links, will read them later. God bless.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The problem EF/Traditional Latin Mass backers have is not coming off as arrogant and schismatic. The EF has to be carefully presented as something beautiful without disparaging the Ordinary Form liturgy. It is a difficult line to walk.

 

[floresco]

The problem EF/Traditional Latin Mass backers have is not coming off as arrogant and schismatic. The EF has to be carefully presented as something beautiful without disparaging the Ordinary Form liturgy. It is a difficult line to walk.

If this is the goal, the OP may be interested in the text of the petition that led to the granting of the so-called “Agatha Christie Indult”. It is available online.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/main/pdf/england-statement.pdf

1971 Statement by Scholars, Intellectuals, and Artists Living in England

“If some senseless decree were to order the total or partial destruction of basilicas or cathedrals, then obviously it would be the educated – whatever their personal beliefs – who would rise up in horror to oppose such a possibility.

Now the fact is that basilicas and cathedrals were built so as to celebrate a rite which, until a few months ago, constituted a living tradition. We are referring to the Roman Catholic Mass. Yet, according to the latest information in Rome, there is a plan to obliterate that Mass by the end of the current year.

One of the axioms of contemporary publicity, religious as well as secular, is that modern man in general, and intellectuals in particular, have become intolerant of all forms of tradition and are anxious to suppress them and put something else in their place. But, like many other affirmations of our publicity machines, this axiom is false. Today, as in times gone by, educated people are in the vanguard where recognition of the value of tradition is concerned, and are the first to raise the alarm when it is threatened.

We are not at this moment considering the religious or spiritual experience of millions of individuals. The rite in question, in its magnificent Latin text, has also inspired a host of priceless achievements in the arts – not only mystical works,
but works by poets, philosophers, musicians, architects, painters and sculptors in all countries and epochs. Thus, it belongs to universal culture as well as to churchmen and formal Christians.

There is a bit more and a very impressive list of signatories (including Agatha Christie - hence the nickname of the indult) at the link. For those unfamiliar with this story, here it is from Wikipedia:

The “Agatha Christie indult” is a nickname applied to the permission granted in 1971 by Pope Paul VI for the use of the Tridentine Mass in England and Wales. “Indult” is a term from Catholic canon law referring to a permission to do something that would otherwise be forbidden.

Following the introduction of the Mass of Paul VI to replace the former rite in 1969-70, a petition was sent to the Pope asking that the Tridentine rite be permitted to continue for those who wished in England and Wales. The petition noted the exceptional artistic and cultural heritage of the Tridentine liturgy, and was signed by many prominent non-Catholic figures in British society, including Agatha Christie, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Kenneth Clark, Robert Graves, F. R. Leavis, Cecil Day-Lewis, Nancy Mitford, Iris Murdoch, Yehudi Menuhin, Joan Sutherland and two Anglican Bishops, those of Exeter and Ripon.

John Cardinal Heenan approached Pope Paul VI and asked that use of the Tridentine Mass be permitted. On 5 November 1971, the Pope granted the request. Between then and the granting of the worldwide “universal indult” in 1984, the bishops of England and Wales were authorized to grant permission for the occasional celebration of Mass in the old form, with the modifications introduced in 1965 and 1967.

English Roman Catholics had a particular attachment to the Tridentine Mass, as the Mass which had been celebrated by the English martyrs of the Reformation and by priests in the years in which Catholicism had been subjected to sometimes severe persecution. The indult acquired its nickname by virtue of a story told about the Pope’s acceptance of the petition:

The story is that Pope Paul read through the letter in silence then suddenly exclaimed, "Ah, Agatha Christie!" and then signed it. ...] The indult was granted in 1971. Ever since it has been known informally as "the Agatha Christie indult".

 

[ProVobis]

This website was created by a former member of CAF.

divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/missa/Cmissa.pl

To do any valid comparison, select the Latin and not the translations, which can be different for the same Latin text.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

This website was created by a former member of CAF.

divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/missa/Cmissa.pl

To do any valid comparison, select the Latin and not the translations, which can be different for the same Latin text.

Thanks! This is quite helpful. Was this Laszlo’s + site?

 

[edwest2]

I think this document will clear up any confusion.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html

I was there before and after Vatican II. I did not love God less after. I think those Traditionalists/Extraordinary Form people like the EF because as the 1960s ended and since, too many weird, inappropriate and disrespectful “innovations” began to appear at some Masses in some Churches.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Mike30]

The problem EF/Traditional Latin Mass backers have is not coming off as arrogant and schismatic. The EF has to be carefully presented as something beautiful without disparaging the Ordinary Form liturgy. It is a difficult line to walk.

Why?

 

[malphono]

Thanks! This is quite helpful. Was this Laszlo’s + site?

Yes, I believe so.

 

[Fairwinds]

The problem EF/Traditional Latin Mass backers have is not coming off as arrogant and schismatic. The EF has to be carefully presented as something beautiful without disparaging the Ordinary Form liturgy. It is a difficult line to walk.

no, its not a difficult line to walk. how about you just don’t talk about the ordinary form? if you stop with the comparisons and grousing, it won’t get under your skin. pretend the OF doesn’t exist and no one will accuse you of disparaging it.

I don’t like the NY Yankees, so I don’t think about them or talk about them. this isn’t rocket science.

F/

 

[ProVobis]

pretend the OF doesn’t exist…

Sure, this is just as easy as pretending English doesn’t exist.

 

[floresco]

no, its not a difficult line to walk. how about you just don’t talk about the ordinary form? if you stop with the comparisons and grousing, it won’t get under your skin. pretend the OF doesn’t exist and no one will accuse you of disparaging it.

I don’t like the NY Yankees, so I don’t think about them or talk about them. this isn’t rocket science.

It is not that simple. The historical context of the OF is that it was a change that followed from the EF. This context affects our perception of it. Here is an incident which happened at my home the other day that I think is a good analogy for this.

My daughter was leaving for school. I was busy with something else and not really paying attention, but I heard everyone else say goodbye so I did too. I said,

“Goodbye. Have a good day at school.”

My husband and other children all looked at me in shock and exclaimed about what a mean thing that was to say. I was completely baffled. I had no clue what was wrong with what I said. Then they explained. While I was not paying attention, everyone else had said in turn,

“Goodbye. I love you. Have a good day at school.”

It stood out to everyone that I had left out saying “I love you.” Because there was an expectation that I would say it, leaving it out was almost like saying that I did not love my daughter. There was nothing wrong with the words I said, in themselves, but it was in a context that made it seem that something important had been left out. I see the Ordinary Form the same way. There is nothing wrong with the words themselves but they leave me, and, I think, many of us, with the sense that something important that we were expecting is not there.

It is not that I am trying to compare them or pitting one form against the other. It is the historical context in which I experience the Mass.

 

[otjm]

Sure, this is just as easy as pretending English doesn’t exist.

What - only Polish and Latin exist?

One does not even have to pretend the OF doesn’t exist. One only has to invite people to the EF with a short commentary on the EF. References to anything else are unnecessary; if I wanted to invite someone from an Eastern rite who was not familiar with either form of the Mass, I would not have to compare either one to the Divine Mysteries to do so; and if we don’t need to reference the Eastern rites, we don’t have to reference the OF when speaking of the EF.

 

[Filioque]

I would suggest that it be presented as a guide for those not familiar with the rites of each use. Starting with a blurb about how “Every Mass offered around the world from simple hut chapel in a distant Mission to Solemn Rites offered in St. Peter’s by the Pope has as the primary celebrant our Lord Himeself. Each Mass regardless of ceremonial which is an approved rite of the Church, Latin or Eastern Rite Liturgy is of equal (Infinite) Value, as it is the re-presenting of the sacrifice of our Lord at Calvary, which He makes present for us through the actions of His priesthood, and His priest.” or something of that ilk.

I think this will also help to evangelize non-Catholics who may see it to see that we don’t hold priests to be mere Magicians, but that they are acting as agents of the Priesthood of Christ Jesus, who is Himself the source of all the graces and the primary action of the Sacraments.

 

[Lormar]

“Each Mass regardless of ceremonial which is an approved rite of the Church, Latin or Eastern Rite Liturgy is of equal (Infinite) Value, as it is the re-presenting of the sacrifice of our Lord at Calvary, which He makes present for us through the actions of His priesthood, and His priest.”

 

[Fairwinds]

Sure, this is just as easy as pretending English doesn’t exist.

why? is anyone saying the two forms at the same times?

 

[ProVobis]

why? is anyone saying the two forms at the same times?

I think you missed my point. Do most who attend Mass know (or care) which form they’re attending as opposed to the language it’s in? And, if you look at Laszlo’s website (see post #7) and compare the Latin, you will not find too many differences, at least not with the responses, Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei, etc. As well as the Roman Canon. So how then can one pretend the OF doesn’t exist?

 

[Fairwinds]

I think you missed my point. Do most who attend Mass know which form they’re attending (or care) as opposed to the language it’s in? And, if you look at Laszlo’s website and compare the Latin, you will not find too many differences, at least not with the responses, Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei, etc. How can one pretend the OF doesn’t exist?

not trying to be snide… but the Latin Mass in any form hasn’t been on my radar for some 50 years. not because of any dislike, its just not part of my Catholic experience, which is as orthodox as possible. I believe you about the not-to-many-differences.

I may well be misreading the thread, if so, sorry about the remarks.