Extraordinary Form of the Mass- Roman Rite

[Brendan]

The purpose of my comment was as a contrast, in light of the various posts that offered resources so that the original poster could attempt to better follow the vertus ordo Mass…

But that was not the question that was offered. Would it not have been more helpful to offer answers to the question that was asked?

 

[corsair]

Sorry to see this thread so badly derailed and then to top it off a continued discussion of the pro’s and con’s of the derailment.

Can’t we just stick to the OP’s questions? where is a moderator when you need one!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I have attended the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the Roman Rite four or five times now. I try to follow along in the red book that they give us, but I still get lost trying to find which prayers are being said. The liturgy is very beautiful, but I would like to be able to follow along. If you had this problem the first few times you attended the Tridentine Mass, I would appreciate any advice you can give me on how to overcome this problem. Thanks!

From an outsider’s perspective, I would try soaking it in without the use of the missal, at least once. I think when you get lost flipping through the book you lose a huge part. For me, even though I don’t speak Latin, I can pick up some things here and there, but to me watching the reverence of how the priest celebrates the Mass is sufficient. Participating in genuflecting, crossing myself, the fear of God he has in the consecration, to me that alone is moving and I feel edified.

I know there are some that get lost and confused by the Latin, and that is their right, but to me, hearing the prayers in Latin I feel unites me with thousands of years of Church history and Tradition, and I can’t get enough of it. And yes, I’m aware that the Ordinary Form can also be celebrated in Latin, which I can appreciate.

I try to watch more than I try to follow the missal exactly.

 

[Silver_Thread]

The OP asked for advice on overcoming their problem of finding the EF to be difficult to follow along with. Father offered them advice.

The problem some might see is that his advice involves perceiving the EF as having an inherent flaw that leads to problems like the one the OP is experiencing. Methinks that sort of view is a bit too much for some enthusiasts to handle.

Please help me out here! “Trouble following EF Mass?” If you have the translation in front of you what’s the problem. Perhaps you are not fluent in English? If you do not have a missal, then you do not have access to the prayers of the day. That’s when you see the priest reading from the Missal at the altar (left or right side). At my parish we download the prayers of the day (easy) and distribute copies each Sunday liturgy. Come on…six months to learn to follow the mass?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I became frustrated the first couple times as well. Finally I put the missalette away and just sort of “absorbed” the liturgy through osmosis. After a couple more exposures I made it a point to learn the skeleton of the liturgy (essentially what the order is of the various parts). I would then attend Mass and would only follow along with the ordinary. I wouldn’t bother with flipping back and forth from the readings, to the collect, to the offertory, etc. When it came time for those proper parts of the Mass I would go back to simple “absorption”. Once I grew comfortable with the basic outline of the Mass, only then did I start following along with the propers.

I don’t think its all that different from learning the OF liturgy for the first time, save for the fact that its in the vernacular and therefore easier to find out where you are when you get lost (and obviously far more easier to “absorb” without following along with a missalette). I would imagine a person to be just as frustrated if they were attending any Catholic Mass for the first time and they were expected to follow along with a big, clunky missal.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

From an outsider’s perspective, I would try soaking it in without the use of the missal, at least once. I think when you get lost flipping through the book you lose a huge part.

I have observed this in action a few times, most recently with The (non-Catholic) Husband at the EF Easter Vigil. He almost walked out after 20 minutes of panic-stricken flipping back and forth in a missalette while watching his wife calmly follow along in her missal. Finally I suggested that he just let it penetrate him rather than try to keep up with it on paper. That’s what I do when I get lost…and, surprised to hear that I do indeed get lost, he followed my advice and stayed, happy and peace-filled, until the end of the liturgy.

That said, everyone is different. But this is certainly a legitimate approach to becoming familiar with the order of the Mass.

 

[babochka]

Please help me out here! “Trouble following EF Mass?” If you have the translation in front of you what’s the problem. Perhaps you are not fluent in English? If you do not have a missal, then you do not have access to the prayers of the day. That’s when you see the priest reading from the Missal at the altar (left or right side). At my parish we download the prayers of the day (easy) and distribute copies each Sunday liturgy. Come on…six months to learn to follow the mass?

If you’re not being entirely facetious and you are actually asking for help, perhaps I can explain.

My husband attended the Byzantine Divine Liturgy for a full year before he felt completely comfortable. The Byzantine Liturgy is audible, in English, and the congregation participates with words and movement throughout. I was amazed because, having grown up with the liturgy, it was second nature to me. It never occurred to me that someone would have difficulty following it!

The EF Mass is in a foreign language and large parts of it are not audible. Even if you have a side-by-side translation, you have to wait until you can actually hear something, then try to understand the words being spoken, then scramble to figure out where that is in the book. So for me, I might hear the Sanctus being sung. I grab onto something that finally sounds familiar and search the missal for the Sanctus. I find it, just as it is ending. So I follow for a little while but soon find myself lost again. Then I might recognize something else… and so it goes, then Mass is over. And I’m familiar with the structure of the Mass and the ordinary of the Mass in Latin and English. Some come to the Mass with none of these things.

I also come with preconceived notions of how some things will be, which further confused me in the beginning. When the epistle was being read, I didn’t realize it, because it was done while facing the altar. In my rite, the epistle is read from within the nave and it in the Novus Ordo, it is read from a lectern, facing the people. Nothing in my past experience had prepared me for the idea that the word of God would be proclaimed in this manner. So, I spent that time wondering what was going on and looking at the pictures in the missal. It took me 5 or 6 times attending and some reading to figure that out.

Yes, I’ve tried just immersing myself in prayer and experiencing the Mass without trying to follow it. Yes, it helps. (When I don’t have kids with me. They definitely complicate the experience.)

The reality is, 20+ times experiencing the Latin Mass, I’m still lost for much of the time, save for a few highlights. I attend a couple of times each year. Maybe someday it will all click and I’ll know exactly where we are in the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

The EF Mass is in a foreign language and large parts of it are not audible.

That’s done for a reason.

From Trent Session 22

“…And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone…”

Even if you have a side-by-side translation, you have to wait until you can actually hear something, then try to understand the words being spoken, then scramble to figure out where that is in the book.

Not true. There are plenty of bows, genuflections, signs-of-cross, etc. which enable one to determine where the priest is. These are non-verbal prayers, which any 7-yr old like me could follow using a simple illustrated prayer book.

It is good to have the reminder that the liturgical reform didn’t come out of nowhere and that it was seen as a deep and urgent need in the Church.

So also said the Reformers 500 years ago.

 

[alphomega]

The OP asked for advice on overcoming their problem of finding the EF to be difficult to follow along with. Father offered them advice.

The problem some might see is that his advice involves perceiving the EF as having an inherent flaw that leads to problems like the one the OP is experiencing. Methinks that sort of view is a bit too much for some enthusiasts to handle.

I would suggest the flaw lies not in the EF but in the formation of the laity over the last 60 years or so. For 1600 years (more or less) the Mass remained unchanged save for minor changes to the rubrics and one sentence added to the Cannon by St. Gregory the Great. The “New order of the Mass” on the other hand was formed by a commission on which sat, among others, six Protestants. It has had several major revisions.

To the OP’s question. Having a 62 missal with the Propers in it would help out a lot. Here is a link to one you can buy.

amazon.com/Roman-Catholic-Daily-Missal-Angelus/dp/1892331292?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

If possible I’d recommend finding someone at the Mass who uses one and ask if they can help you out.

 

[babochka]

That’s done for a reason.

From Trent Session 22

“…And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone…”

I understand and don’t have a problem with that (though it is not my preference). But I am trying to explain why somebody like myself would have trouble following the Mass. Whether it is done for a reason or not doesn’t change the reality that there is a lack of auditory cues and auditory cues can help one to follow what is occurring. If you are not accustomed to the Mass, it does require a retraining of the way that you think and pray during the Mass. For some of us, that takes more time.

Not true. There are plenty of bows, genuflections, signs-of-cross, etc. which enable one to determine where the priest is. These are non-verbal prayers, which any 7-yr old like me could follow using a simple illustrated prayer book.

Well, I’m usually there for 1st Communions and weddings and such, at the back of a very crowded church. Perhaps that helps to explain my difficulties. When you were 7 and following along in your illustrated prayer book, it was likely not your first Mass and you likely didn’t have any preconceived ideas. It is like a 3-year-old learning a first language vs. a grown man of 50. The grown man might struggle with concepts that are no problem to a 3-year-old.

So also said the Reformers 500 years ago.

And the reformers were right 500 years ago. There was a deep and urgent need for reform in the Church at that time. So it also was at the time of St. Francis. The fact that the reformers chose to break with the church rather than humbly work to reform from within doesn’t change the reality that reform was needed.

 

[ProVobis]

And the reformers were right 500 years ago. There was a deep and urgent need for reform in the Church at that time. So it also was at the time of St. Francis. The fact that the reformers chose to break with the church rather than humbly work to reform from within doesn’t change the reality that reform was needed.

I suppose one could use the argument one could always find ways to improve, but again, reformatio gratia reformationis (reform for the sake of reform) is not IMO a good argument, especially since the outcome so far shows over 30,000 denominations inter alia.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I have observed this in action a few times, most recently with The (non-Catholic) Husband at the EF Easter Vigil. He almost walked out after 20 minutes of panic-stricken flipping back and forth in a missalette while watching his wife calmly follow along in her missal. Finally I suggested that he just let it penetrate him rather than try to keep up with it on paper. That’s what I do when I get lost…and, surprised to hear that I do indeed get lost, he followed my advice and stayed, happy and peace-filled, until the end of the liturgy.

That said, everyone is different. But this is certainly a legitimate approach to becoming familiar with the order of the Mass.

For me, as much as you obviously should be able to follow along with the hymns and the prayers, it is as much seeing and observing as well. Of course if I understood more I’d be more edified, but I feel peace-filled just following along as best as I can. And I genuinely feel like I’m participating as well when I follow the crossing and the genuflections, I feel like I’m being reverent to the Lord.

But again, to each his own. I like going home and looking up some of the Latin prayers on my own time, so then when I do return, I will recognize them and enjoy it that much more. I’ve fallen in love in particular with the Confiteor.

 

[StGerardMajella]

The reality is, 20+ times experiencing the Latin Mass, I’m still lost for much of the time, save for a few highlights. I attend a couple of times each year. Maybe someday it will all click and I’ll know exactly where we are in the Mass.

babochka - I think the challenge is that you are not attending this form of the Mass that often. It took me a good 6 months to a year of regular attendance just to get the general pattern of the liturgy down pat for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

I would be patient with yourself, and know that what you are experiencing is very common for many faithful that are new to this form of the Mass. Be patient with yourself. It does take time.

As I noted earlier, the key for me was really paying close attention to the priest during the liturgy. Many times the priest continues with the prayers while the laity is still singing, which can put you 2-3 pages behind in the Missal if you are not paying close attention.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The OP asked for advice on overcoming their problem of finding the EF to be difficult to follow along with. Father offered them advice.

You have exactly expressed both my thought and my intention in the advice that I offered – especially in the light of the fact that the advice I offered is predicated on the fact that I can only presume that the original poster is Chinese.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I appreciate your comments very much. I came to my first Traditional Mass - a Midnight High Mass - with high expectations. I love to experience beautiful liturgy and I was looking forward to that Mass very much. I came away disappointed and wondered how I had failed to appreciate it properly. A friend reassured me that I simply needed more exposure, that appreciation for the Mass would surely come. It has been several years now, and I’ve now been to about 20 such masses - for weddings, First Communions, homeschool events etc. High Masses, low Masses, sung Masses; diocesan, FSSP, SSPX - I’ve experienced quite a variety. While I appreciate the beauty, the smells and bells, the choir, etc., I still find myself utterly lost for almost the whole Mass. Every once in a while, as I flip through the missal and look at pictures, I can figure out for a moment where we are. Maybe it would get better with time and more exposure, but I don’t find it conducive to prayer. Friends continue to tell me that I just need more exposure. Maybe so. My husband tells me it took him an entire year of regular attendance to learn to really appreciate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Crystostom and to not be totally lost. To me, it was just normal.

It is good to have the reminder that the liturgical reform didn’t come out of nowhere and that it was seen as a deep and urgent need in the Church.

Thank you. I also appreciate your comments.

You have quite well expressed in parts of your post exactly what I found in the time I had responsibility for the indult Mass relative to people who were unfamiliar with the vetus ordo and struggled with that – and it was drawing from that experience that I offered the advice I posted. I was doing this many years ago, after all.

To those who came to attend that Mass and needed help – which were primarily those of course who had not grown up in the time of the vetus ordo (and the indult was specifically intended for those who were previously attached to the vetus ordo) – I gave them the sought for help. After all, the bishop mandated that the condition for the indult being provided at that time in the diocese was that intense liturgical catechesis and the exploration of the documents of Vatican II accompany the celebration of the vetus ordo Mass and it was my ability to do both that were two of several reasons I ended up with this obedience.

The help offered took two forms: helping them with liturgical aids and their proper utilisation or, ultimately, meeting with the person(s) and the recognition that what they were seeking was not to be found in this celebration and that was a perfectly understandable determination.

This was what I experienced in the 1980s and then Pope Benedict expressed, if more eloquently, this exact same sentiment when he wrote to the world’s bishops in 2007 about Summorum Pontificum.

In any event, as one who actually used to offer the vetus ordo Mass, there is more than one way to respond to a request for advice about it.

 

[Psalitte]

If you’re not being entirely facetious and you are actually asking for help, perhaps I can explain.

My husband attended the Byzantine Divine Liturgy for a full year before he felt completely comfortable. The Byzantine Liturgy is audible, in English, and the congregation participates with words and movement throughout. I was amazed because, having grown up with the liturgy, it was second nature to me. It never occurred to me that someone would have difficulty following it!

The EF Mass is in a foreign language and large parts of it are not audible. Even if you have a side-by-side translation, you have to wait until you can actually hear something, then try to understand the words being spoken, then scramble to figure out where that is in the book. So for me, I might hear the Sanctus being sung. I grab onto something that finally sounds familiar and search the missal for the Sanctus. I find it, just as it is ending. So I follow for a little while but soon find myself lost again. Then I might recognize something else… and so it goes, then Mass is over. And I’m familiar with the structure of the Mass and the ordinary of the Mass in Latin and English. Some come to the Mass with none of these things.

I also come with preconceived notions of how some things will be, which further confused me in the beginning. When the epistle was being read, I didn’t realize it, because it was done while facing the altar. In my rite, the epistle is read from within the nave and it in the Novus Ordo, it is read from a lectern, facing the people. Nothing in my past experience had prepared me for the idea that the word of God would be proclaimed in this manner. So, I spent that time wondering what was going on and looking at the pictures in the missal. It took me 5 or 6 times attending and some reading to figure that out.

Yes, I’ve tried just immersing myself in prayer and experiencing the Mass without trying to follow it. Yes, it helps. (When I don’t have kids with me. They definitely complicate the experience.)

The reality is, 20+ times experiencing the Latin Mass, I’m still lost for much of the time, save for a few highlights. I attend a couple of times each year. Maybe someday it will all click and I’ll know exactly where we are in the Mass.

A lot of prayers are also silent and inaudible in the Byzantine Rite, so let’s not kid ourselves.

 

[babochka]

A lot of prayers are also silent and inaudible in the Byzantine Rite, so let’s not kid ourselves.

Of course. Even the Novus Ordo Mass has some. But in the Byzantine rite, while the priest is praying silent prayers, they are “covered” by the congregation’s prayers, with parallel prayers happening. It doesn’t leave me lost and trying to figure out where we are. The liturgy doesn’t happen in silence and the congregation has an auditory part to play. Also, the silent prayers of the priest are not generally in the people’s books, nor are his gestures.

I am also aware that those who appreciate the Latin Mass are sometimes put off by the constant singing and long for a bit of sacred silence.

Again, I am writing about my personal experience with this Mass, trying to explain my own personal obstacles to someone who was a bit incredulous that it would take 6 months to learn to follow the Mass. I’ve nothing at all against silent prayers. In fact, I was very appreciative when my own pastor returned to the use of a silent anaphora.

 

[ProVobis]

The liturgy doesn’t happen in silence and the congregation has an auditory part to play.

That’s when the contemplative prayer of the EF comes into play. It is different from vocal prayer and is covered in that 5-part series put out by the Latin Mass Society.

I worked for a boss back in 1970 who was absolutely livid against the vocal prayers imposed, especially when recited in cadences by the congregation. Claimed too much focus was trying to keep together that it failed to convey a spirit of sincerity, among other things. God isn’t hard of hearing, after all. I believe he had a point.

 

[ProVobis]

Also, the silent prayers of the priest are not generally in the people’s books, nor are his gestures.

Why is that?

 

[babochka]

Why is that?

I don’t really know. I guess I’ve never thought about it before. I’ve worshiped in a number of Byzantine Churches in 4 different jurisdictions (Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite, and Romanian) and never seen a people’s book which includes the priest’s prayers. other than the prayers meant to be prayed aloud. I guess some Orthodox jurisdictions and maybe some Catholic as well, have the priest’s prayers printed.

For my jurisdiction (Ruthenians), there is a strong tradition of congregational singing. We don’t really have a need to read the priest’s prayers, since we have our own (parallel) part. While the priest is praying, we are praying twice (singing). In addition, many of the priest’s prayers are done before the Divine Liturgy begins and he is behind the icon screen, so largely unseen by the congregation. I do enjoy sitting in our cry room because our priest wears a microphone and I can hear his “silent” prayers, which are actually far from silent. He just prays them while the rest of us are singing, so he isn’t heard. Historically, many of the prayers that are now prayed “silently” or covered by singing were not always so. In some cases, priests began to pray them while the congregation was singing its parts in the interest of time.