Extravagance in the Church?

[zz912]

*Matthew 26:6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, 7 woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, “Why this waste? 9 It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor.” 10 Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, “Why do you make trouble for the woman? **She has done a good thing for me. 11 The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me. **12 In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13 Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her.” *

Parishes and cathedrals house Christ Himself. As such, it is a good thing when we house Him properly in a beautiful house.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Can you show where he taught this as a general rule to his followers? From my understanding he did “command” this to a particular person, the rich young man. However, he also rebuked Judas for trying to apply the same rule to the woman with the expensive ointment.

A more telling statement of Jesus concerns his answer to those who attempt to portray his wisdom legalistically as applying to all people, at all times and in all places.

***“To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

“‘We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn.’
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’ But wisdom is proved right by her many children.” (Matt 11:16-19)***

It seems to me that your point is more in line with the attitude of Jesus’ detractors than with his wisdom which suggests we take the best course of action rather than merely a predefined one.

Apparently a lot of Catholic religious through the ages, in choosing lives of extreme austerity, have concluded that Jesus was addressing more than just that one young man.

It seems then that you and others, in response to Maher’s question, would reply that Jesus would be OK with St. Peter’s. Fair enough.

 

[runningdude]

Then why is the Church the world’s largest charitable organization?

The church invests time, prayers, and caring in addition to money. Individuals volunteer to teach life and career skills, rather than just hand out money or food. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach him to fish, he eats for a life time.

I’m not sure that he hasn’t. But if so, probably b/c the millionaire does not claim to have the same moral authority that the Church does. With great authority comes great responsibility.

I expect the Church to behave better than a random millionaire. I think we all should expect and demand that. I’m not saying that the Church doesn’t behave better, I’m just saying it’s reasonable to hold it up to a higher standard.

Even the millionaire’s lavish spending would have gone to paying the wages of the construction workers, and then there would be continuous wages for the maintenance crews, cooks, etc. There is nothing inherently immoral about luxurious living; it is greed and living beyond one’s means that becomes sinful.

Even if the Church sold every piece of artwork and treasure, someone would still have to pay to buy it. Why shouldn’t those that would buy such artwork not give directly to the poor instead? Being required to sell nice things because the revenue could be given to the poor is an inherently contradictory notion.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Apparently a lot of Catholic religious through the ages, in choosing lives of extreme austerity, have concluded that Jesus was addressing more than just that one young man.

It seems then that you and others, in response to Maher’s question, would reply that Jesus would be OK with St. Peter’s. Fair enough.

Which is to say that it is not a “one size fits all” path to sanctity. What may apply to some individuals may not apply to all and what applies to individuals may not apply to the Church as a body.

 

[PolarGuy]

Reading thru this thread, I was struck not by how glorious St. Peter’s in Rome is…

…but how my Pastor asked for money at Mass yesterday, for the third time in about 3 months.

In our Parish, we are bombarded with requests for dollars. However much you give…you’re asked to give more. Some families have been told “you’re not giving enough.” We’re asked to remember the Parish in our Wills. Our church school has a contractual requirement to use envelopes in collections – and my family recently got a nasty letter when we failed to use envelopes, even though we actually write checks and put them in the collection basket weekly, i.e., we give the same amount but simply committed the unpardonable sin of not using the envelopes.

When I sat thru the Pastor’s so-called “homily”, I was reminded of St. Jerome, who wrote, “beware the man of God who is also a man of business.” I thought of this when I read the post above about the Church being like a corporation. However, if I donate a box of cereal to a food pantry, I’ve fed the poor. If I give the cost of the cereal to my Parish, a compelling case can be made that what I have done is feed the cost associated with helping the Pastor ask me for more money next week. My $ pays the Pastor…and the light bill…and the heating bill…and some of it (I believe) goes to the diocese according to a mathematical formula (where it perhaps pays for settlements of lawsuits by kids molested by priests??) But does it really help, for example, the poor? Maybe to some extent, but only after the Parish takes out its healthy overhead. So, yes, the analogy that the Church is a “corporation” is actually apt, but in a really, really BAD way: Because I cannot supress the feeling that this corporation just asks for more money so that it can go on asking for money in the future, in a circular, neverending way…

 

[Elizium23]

If you choose to donate to the parish - and that is a good choice for part of your tithe, because it helps your community - if you choose to do that, then yes, it goes to overhead. But you can also choose to donate to charitable arms of Holy Church. You can donate to St. Vincent de Paul: most parishes have a special collection, for example on the fifth Sunday of the month that goes 100% to SVdP and I can assure you that they have very little overhead, being a volunteer organization, almost all of your money will go directly to help the poor. You can give to Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, CNEWA, myriad organizations that are associated with the Church that are founded to perform works of charity directly. Your money will not be wasted here, if all you want to do is help the poor.

However, Holy Church does not exist just to help the poor. Holy Church exists to save souls and spread the Gospel message. Those donating money should be mindful that works of charity are secondary to these missions, albeit intrinsically linked. Holy Church depends on the faithful to support the priests so that they can perform the sacraments on a regular basis for those who need them (everyone). She depends on the faithful to support the religious and laity who are involved in spreading the Gospel message to all ends of the Earth. To this end, the parish needs to purchase temporal goods - altar bread, sacred vessels, altar furnishings, building capital and maintenance, monthly utilities - in service of the community and the Gospel message. This cannot be considered mere overhead that lines someone’s pockets. As I have described already, these funds flow out from Holy Church and into not only the pockets of her clergy and religious, but also the pockets of artisans and laborers who do real work in support of Holy Church’s needs. In this way, her primary mission is supported as well as others who benefit from the economic flow. Money donated to one’s own parish community is not waste, it is (hopefully) put to good use in service of the Gospel.

But you are free to allocate your funds to charities alone. There are others who choose to donate only to their community, so any organization that does charity work “in the trenches” will be more than happy to take your money instead.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Reading thru this thread, I was struck not by how glorious St. Peter’s in Rome is…

…but how my Pastor asked for money at Mass yesterday, for the third time in about 3 months.

In our Parish, we are bombarded with requests for dollars. However much you give…you’re asked to give more. Some families have been told “you’re not giving enough.” We’re asked to remember the Parish in our Wills. Our church school has a contractual requirement to use envelopes in collections – and my family recently got a nasty letter when we failed to use envelopes, even though we actually write checks and put them in the collection basket weekly, i.e., we give the same amount but simply committed the unpardonable sin of not using the envelopes.

When I sat thru the Pastor’s so-called “homily”, I was reminded of St. Jerome, who wrote, “beware the man of God who is also a man of business.” I thought of this when I read the post above about the Church being like a corporation. However, if I donate a box of cereal to a food pantry, I’ve fed the poor. If I give the cost of the cereal to my Parish, a compelling case can be made that what I have done is feed the cost associated with helping the Pastor ask me for more money next week. My $ pays the Pastor…and the light bill…and the heating bill…and some of it (I believe) goes to the diocese according to a mathematical formula (where it perhaps pays for settlements of lawsuits by kids molested by priests??) But does it really help, for example, the poor? Maybe to some extent, but only after the Parish takes out its healthy overhead. So, yes, the analogy that the Church is a “corporation” is actually apt, but in a really, really BAD way: Because I cannot supress the feeling that this corporation just asks for more money so that it can go on asking for money in the future, in a circular, neverending way…

Have you ever been part of a parish council to get a real sense of where and how money is used? Of course, mileage may vary somewhat, but you might see things differently after being on the “other side” of the decision making that occurs in any parish. It is much like running a household. My thought is that at least some of your critical points could equally apply to the management of any family’s financial and social obligations, no?

 

[PolarGuy]

Elizium23, your points are maybe 95% valid IMHO. Thank you.

However, I have issue with 1 item which you allude to: I don’t think that it’s really valid to say that the collections taken by a Parish go to support “artisans,” who perhaps glorify the church, because what that really is, is “the roofer and the landscaper.” Having a cost associated with that is in fact part of the overhead of the church, but the fact remains that many will see a difference between helping the poor and, say, manicuring bushes (which seems more value-neutral). Moreover, in my experience the problem on a practical level is that a very large number of parishes/pastors – essentially all of them I’ve encountered – expect that whoever they call to work on the roof, remove the snow, etc., will work at a steep discount “because it’s for the church.”

Now, another matter which often gets forgotten about: Although your points are generally valid, the fact remains that a LOT of parishes are constantly “hitting up” the parishoners. IMHO, that detracts from the central theme of Christianity, all the more so because what the funds being hit up for will be used for things like manicuring the bushes as opposed to something more “morally beneficial,” if you will. Moreover, constant badgering to “maybe give a little more in the collection this week” is quite frankly insulting because it assumes the audience isn’t already giving “all they can.” It also feeds a stereotype that Catholics are just all about money – and sometimes stereotypes fit for a reason.

I am very close to a woman who spent 20 years as a nun. She is the kindest, most faith-filled woman you will ever meet…and she told me today, paraphrased, “when I was in the convent, we never once looked at the price of food we bought because the diocese paid for it. We bought whatever we wanted, regardless of price.” That attitude is REALLY hard to forget, for those of us who have to balance a checkbook each month.

 

[PolarGuy]

PeterPlato, I respectfully think your position – that a Parish is a bit like a family, financially – doesn’t “fit” for many reasons. To rattle them off:

–In my family I can’t ask parishioners for money when I need a new roof.

–In my family I can’t ask the diocese for money when I need a new roof.

–When a Pastor asks for money, he is by nature using influence/persuasion tactics I can’t use: He’s speaking with the moral backing of the Church to ask for money. This also allows him to ask for and command discounts from vendors. I have no such bargaining power. Moreover, most people will feel at least some pressure to “cough up” when the priest asks for $$; they have no such reaction to me.

–99% of families’ breadwinners earn in proportion to their productivity. That is untrue for the Church. Some of the wisest priests I ever encountered were also the worst fundraisers…or had lousy personalities…or were unliked by their superiors (because they were lousy fundraisers?)

–If my pastor misspends money, I have no control over it. If my wife misspends, I can exercise at least some, or perhaps more, measure of restraint.

 

[zz912]

Reading thru this thread, I was struck not by how glorious St. Peter’s in Rome is…

…but how my Pastor asked for money at Mass yesterday, for the third time in about 3 months.

In our Parish, we are bombarded with requests for dollars. However much you give…you’re asked to give more. Some families have been told “you’re not giving enough.” We’re asked to remember the Parish in our Wills. Our church school has a contractual requirement to use envelopes in collections – and my family recently got a nasty letter when we failed to use envelopes, even though we actually write checks and put them in the collection basket weekly, i.e., we give the same amount but simply committed the unpardonable sin of not using the envelopes.

When I sat thru the Pastor’s so-called “homily”, I was reminded of St. Jerome, who wrote, “beware the man of God who is also a man of business.” I thought of this when I read the post above about the Church being like a corporation. However, if I donate a box of cereal to a food pantry, I’ve fed the poor. If I give the cost of the cereal to my Parish, a compelling case can be made that what I have done is feed the cost associated with helping the Pastor ask me for more money next week. My $ pays the Pastor…and the light bill…and the heating bill…and some of it (I believe) goes to the diocese according to a mathematical formula (where it perhaps pays for settlements of lawsuits by kids molested by priests??) But does it really help, for example, the poor? Maybe to some extent, but only after the Parish takes out its healthy overhead. So, yes, the analogy that the Church is a “corporation” is actually apt, but in a really, really BAD way: Because I cannot supress the feeling that this corporation just asks for more money so that it can go on asking for money in the future, in a circular, neverending way…

Trust me on this one, the pastor WANTS to stop asking for money. They HATE having to ask for money. I would suggest you volunteer for the Parish Finance Council so you can help them with their finances. You will be surprised at how little there really is, and how much is done with that money. (It’s tough to fill the collection plate with single $1 bills. There is a culture of many who think the Church is flush with money, and they think the Church doesn’t need their money (not referring to you specifically). So they put $1 in the collection basket, and then after Church go to Starbucks and buy a $7 coffee and complain about how greedy the Church is.)

And as another person said, what you call “overhead” is the expenses needed for the Church to provide the sacraments, which is the PRIMARY duty of the Church.

 

[Elizium23]

Fund raising is fraught with difficulty, and there are as many approaches to it as there are people doing it. The problem that Holy Church has is that she doesn’t ordain men to be salesmen or pitchmen, she ordains them to share in Christ’s ministry. The same goes for consecrated religious: their vocation is for prayer, contemplation, spreading the Gospel, and whatever their institute’s charism may be. And many of them make vows of poverty, yet they must still earn a livelihood for their community. As you can see, many religious communities survive by the work of their hands, making things for consumers even in the secular world, such as Mystic Monk Coffee ™.

I have known some priests who are super and unashamed at asking for money. Father Joe Carroll of San Diego is a great example of that. He used to come to our parish and his opening line was, “I’m a hustler.” And he went on to do great charitable things with that money. Father Joe has saved many lives and snatched people from the depths of poverty, but he kind of put his dignity on the line in order to do it. Some priests are not as prolific as Father Joe, and find themselves asking often for money but maybe too much of it gets wasted on “overhead” or unneeded costs. Some priests don’t ask for money very often. My pastor is in this school of thought. He is more than willng to allow other ministries to hold fund raisers and he knows when and how to tap ministries for funds, but he does not ask parishioners for money from the pulpit, because he uses that time to preach the Gospel. He has an MBA, and is very shrewd with the limited revenue in the parish. We have seen incremental improvements made in a tasteful way, and many have increased the attractiveness and utility of our facilities.

There are definitely roles for the laity if we want to improve how money is spent or where it goes. We can join ministries such as St. Vincent de Paul, or perhaps your parish has another ministry to the needy. If it doesn’t, then start one! The community as family needs active members. In fact, the parish and Holy Church is more than just a community or a family, we are the living Body of Christ. All the baptized share in the charisms of priest, prophet, and king. As prophets we share the Word of God with others. As priest we offer sacrifice of ourselves: that means stewardship of our gifts: time, talent, and treasure for the good of the kingdom. As king we share in the rule of Holy Church according to our state in life: that might mean you are called to lead a ministry, or serve on the parish finance council.

At all times we should remember the example of Christ who shows us the way. And what is the first thing He did when He went to the Temple? He prayed and taught the Gospel. What else did He do there? He did not tell the priests to sell the elaborate furnishings to help the poor, or give their sacrifices to help the hungry, He took direct action and healed the sick right on the steps. And He cleansed the Temple of money changers who sought illicit profit from worshippers. I think the money changers can be a good symbol of the waste of money that we sometimes find in the running of Holy Church or the spending of the faithful. They were taking advantage of pilgrims at this location and skimming dishonest profits from people innocently seeking the proper matter for their ritual sacrifices. And today, Vatican City has the highest crime rate per capita of any nation in the world - why? Because of pickpockets. So hate the pickpockets, not the priests.

 

[doormouse73]

i hate putting this in this thread but im afraid i’ve got to put things into perspective with the asking of money in collection.

i’ve seen people put in a penny in the collection box while they drink beer 5 days a week.then others have put it a very generous amount while they have very little.

if a penny is all you have then put it in the box.there should be no competition in who pays there way into the house of our Lord.but the bottom line is,bills have to be paid im afraid.just look how big the Catholic Church is rather than the building we attend on Sundays.

if i put for the debates sake all my wage in the collection,would I be called mad/crazy for doing so?

i think i could answer the question my self,and say yes.

 

[Elizium23]

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:38-44[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[doormouse73]

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:38-44[/BIBLEDRB]

Amen to that post by Elizium23

 

[manualman]

I confess that I haven’t read all the above, but I have to add my usual response to these threads.

I find that the people who criticize the church for spending big dollars on architecture, art, liturgical artifacts, etc. instead of handing all that money out to the poor don’t live this ethic in their own lives either. God never commanded us to give all our money to the poor, He commanded us to care for them as we care for ourselves. And right before that command, He told us to love GOD with all our hearts souls and minds.

Society once built churches as the central edifices of community, the expression of who we were as a people and what we valued. Now we criticize those past generations, then proceed to buy tickets to the latest football game at the $500,000,000 stadium in the city that they built last year to replace the $135,000,000 stadium they built 20 years ago and tore down last year… (Betcha Bill M has season tickets too)

The critics are usually the hypocrites, not the church.

 

[Peter_Plato]

PeterPlato, I respectfully think your position – that a Parish is a bit like a family, financially – doesn’t “fit” for many reasons. To rattle them off:

–In my family I can’t ask parishioners for money when I need a new roof.

–In my family I can’t ask the diocese for money when I need a new roof.

–When a Pastor asks for money, he is by nature using influence/persuasion tactics I can’t use: He’s speaking with the moral backing of the Church to ask for money. This also allows him to ask for and command discounts from vendors. I have no such bargaining power. Moreover, most people will feel at least some pressure to “cough up” when the priest asks for $$; they have no such reaction to me.

–99% of families’ breadwinners earn in proportion to their productivity. That is untrue for the Church. Some of the wisest priests I ever encountered were also the worst fundraisers…or had lousy personalities…or were unliked by their superiors (because they were lousy fundraisers?)

–If my pastor misspends money, I have no control over it. If my wife misspends, I can exercise at least some, or perhaps more, measure of restraint.

Neither is your family completely dependent, financially or otherwise, upon the good will and generosity of a body of believers who can, at will, distance themselves from their flexible and “non-oblgatory” responsibility to providentially support it. I think your position might change a bit if your family were placed into the compromised position of having to rely solely on the good will of others because no one in your family could, by order of a higher authority, engage in any activity for pay.

 

[frizzgrig]

and why wouldn’t they ? i know in the washington d.c diocese
all construction is done by union contractors

Union or non-union workers pay is not “profit” for the contractor. Paying the salaries of the office workers, architects, trades people, and managers is not profit. Paying for the materials is not profit. Paying for the permits, taxes, etc. is not profit.

Profit would be monies received for the job in excess of all the expenses (including paying the owner of the contracting company a just wage). I suspect if the job is a $2.5 million job, it is either a very small building or there is almost no profit in it.

 

[frizzgrig]

PeterPlato, I respectfully think your position – that a Parish is a bit like a family, financially – doesn’t “fit” for many reasons. To rattle them off:

–In my family I can’t ask parishioners for money when I need a new roof.

–In my family I can’t ask the diocese for money when I need a new roof.

Actually, if you are really in need you could ask your parish or diocese for assistance. It happens all the time. Home repairs, automobile repairs, rent, utility payments, food, child care, etc. the list goes on. A Christian community takes care of the community members and strangers.

–When a Pastor asks for money, he is by nature using influence/persuasion tactics I can’t use: He’s speaking with the moral backing of the Church to ask for money. This also allows him to ask for and command discounts from vendors. I have no such bargaining power. Moreover, most people will feel at least some pressure to “cough up” when the priest asks for $$; they have no such reaction to me.

When any person asks for assistance out of genuine necessity, they ask with the moral authority of Jesus. “Whoever has two tunics should share with the person who has none. And whoever has food should do likewise.” (Lk 3:11)

–99% of families’ breadwinners earn in proportion to their productivity. That is untrue for the Church. Some of the wisest priests I ever encountered were also the worst fundraisers…or had lousy personalities…or were unliked by their superiors (because they were lousy fundraisers?)

I would argue the Church raises funds in proportion to the local needs and how they can help. I would call this the “productivity” of the local church.

–If my pastor misspends money, I have no control over it. If my wife misspends, I can exercise at least some, or perhaps more, measure of restraint.

If your pastor misspends money, you can go to the parish finance committee and/or the bishop. You probably have more influence over your pastor spending money wisely than your spouse’s spending.

 

[PolarGuy]

You wrote that “if you are really in need you could ask your parish or diocese for assistance. It happens all the time. Home repairs, automobile repairs, rent, utility payments, food, child care, etc. the list goes on. A Christian community takes care of the community members and strangers.”

Reality is different. I live in one of the largest archdiocese in the US, and most of this “help” is nonexistent.

And getting this from your local Parish? Good luck with that. An anecdote would suffice. A major natural disaster recently left me – and over 500,000 people – without power for over a week (if that gives inkling where I live…so be it). During that time, my Parish church had power. I went out to Mass after being without power for a week. What does my priest say to me when I say, “I have no power”? He says, “I’ll pray for you.” Prayer, sadly, did not keep me warm. So I asked the Pastor: How about “come to the church basement to warm up & charge your cell phones” night. His response? “we just can’t do annything like that…THE ARCHDIOCESE WON’T ALLOW US.”

'Course, the Baptists were making sandwiches in their church…that’s where I got the “warm up & charge your cell phones night” from.
{Edited because I messed up the quote function}

 

[PolarGuy]

Frizzgrig, you also wrote that “when any person asks for assistance out of genuine necessity, they ask with the moral authority of Jesus. “Whoever has two tunics should share with the person who has none. And whoever has food should do likewise.” (Lk 3:11)”

–It sounds so nice when you type it. See my prior post. I had “genuine need,” and so did a few thousand of my neighbors, and our parish priest said he’d pray for us and he didn’t lift a finger (the same guy who’s hit us up 3 times recently…) I was not comforted…

–Besides, it doesn’t alter the reality a whit that when the priest asks for $, he carries more weight than anyone else does. I’m sorry, I’m sure your post is well intentioned, but reality is simply different.

–And my Archbishop lives like the Aga Kahn.